This seems crazy to me but maybe I don't understand balance as well as some of the experts do. Edit: I didn't think about this but Graves is also a better choice at the other 4 positions as well.
Very Hard Engage22 votesshyv got hard nerfed because of devourerer + bork being outrageously good on her.
except after devourerer was changed and bork saw nerfs they left shyvana behind.
Keti15 votesdevourer + Bork was never good.
It was all about devourer + Titanic Hydra abuse
Sasogwa7 votesdevourer + Bork was never good.
It was all about devourer + Titanic Hydra abuse
botrk was still decent. It's not like Titanic shyvana was broken and botrk shyvana was bad. There's not a huge difference. A bit more waveclear and tankiness on titanic, more duelling with botrk and that's it.
Keti2 votesActually IMO, there was a massive difference. I've always felt bork was a trap item for shyvana. And I say this as one of the few people with lots of shyvana experience at high elo. devourer -> Bork resulted in a super squishy mid game, while devouer -> titanic gave you similar damage and made you tanky enough, and continued to give more damage as you built more HP. Titanic active + Q + E mark + W active with devourer generally did 1/2 to 2/3 of an adc's health in the mid game with just the one auto. it was absurd.
Ulquiorra9952 votesAnd when they they actually gave out compensation buffs for her... more AP scaling. Yeah, added scaling on a stat she never builds totally compensates for Q base damage being cut in half. Not sure if they did it to troll Shyvana players or actually thought that "buff" would make even the slightest difference.
MrWasjig5 votesI think the term you're looking for is "Sejuani'd"
yoshi279018 votesI hate 
.
going 4/1/2 in early game and then wrecking everyone lategame with his insane burst.
D3m37r167 votes4/1/2 early game is pretty fed imo
Slythion14 votesi think his point was that graves excels at all stages of the game, even though in reality he falls off really hard when it comes to late game
http://www.champion.gg/champion/Graves (lol that dropoff at 30mins)
AirKingNeo2 votesBuild crit = no drop off
MonkeyMadness11 votesHe really doesn't drop off that hard. Sure, he lacks the range that most marksmen abuse to deal damage safely, but he has decent mobility, tankiness, and his burst is incredible.
Slythion5 votesGraves' winrate drops from 54.56% to 49.44% (5% difference) in the span from 30mins to 35mins into the game. That is certainly quite the dropoff
MonkeyMadness2 votesThen that implies his team doesn't understand how to play with him in the late game. Late game graves does NOT fall off when played properly.
Slythion7 votesthis data is from thousands upon thousands of plat+ games...are you saying that plat and higher elos don't know how to play with a common jungler's late game?
bony whimsark12 votesYes. All of NA challenger is boosted if you look at it from a korean's standpoint
pls no hurt it is joke
Slythion4 votesI mean, you're really not wrong :^)
I wouldn't hurt you <3
Velzard of Koz3 votesbaby don't hurt me don't hurt me 'twas joke...
bony whimsark3 votesWhat is love
Rew7112 votesI feel bad that Riot Repitiors rework only made Graves (my ADC main before the rework) into something more OP than he was before. Yet, he did get a few weaknesses that make it harder on him in bot. Such as reduced range, two shots and then a 2 second wait, and the inability to shoot through targets. I'll be honest, I miss the original gun slinger I used to play. Where his are damaging Q was the real deal, he passively gained MR and AR, and gained bonus AS fun just a scoot. With this new passive and basic attack, he's a lot harder to use in bot and might as well be better used in the jungle but because its an area damaging basic attack, nerfing it only means that Graves will need yet again another rework and I have yet to even get used to the new basic attacks.
I also think his E is stupid now... "gives an extra bullet" bull, if it gave an extra bullet then even if he had 2 bullets loaded he'd have a third waiting. This is by no means like his original E if it can't give that extra shot in without shooting first. What's the point of the bonus MR and Armor if you can't or shouldn't use it until after you start fighting? That to me is a poor choice in kit design.
Ralanr18 votesThat's because all Shyvana does is farm, farm, and then beat you over the head with a bag of gold. Any time farm junglers are weak usually has her being the poster child of their weakness.
Astôlfo16 votesGraves is a better choice for jungler than a lot of champions. Likewise, Shyvana is generally subpar right now.
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesI mean, he's ranked 16th. And Shyvana isn't that far behind him (barely over a percentage point)
Meep Man13 votesI just find it annoying that Graves can jungle almost entirely because of a needless little knockback on on-champions put into his passive. It makes kiting monsters far too easy for him.
50000000000000001 votesWhat if the knockback only worked on small monsters and minions? I'm pretty sure it's put there so the enemies can't just walk behind minions to avoid all the damage.
CoffeeDave2 votesI feel like if his passive has to knock back champs, it can do it up to a certain point. Like up until a champ hits 3k HP. Gives room for 
to be just too big to get knocked back by a shot gun. IMO it would feel flavorful too. For both parties.
Sire Hippington7 votesI'm more concerned that rammus, urgot and karthus are all better toplaners than shyvana....it's just a shame how the lane-dragon is treated.
Doseqis3 votesProbably because everytime she is viable top she absolutely breaks the top lane meta again.
Cronofuge6 votesRevertGraves2016
CoffeeDave2 votesI do miss ADC , But if they're not gonna give us his cigar back; I don't see his old kit returning too.
CleverSloth6 votesGraves might be a little bit too good, but I think the bigger issue is Shyv is a bit too weak. In typical fashion the juggernauts just get kited to death, literally. Same reason why 
has issues. To a smaller extent 
but at least his pull and slow can pile some damage on if you get an outplay.
WinTheWarOnPants6 votesShyv needs a rework to really keep up with everyone else but giving her ult cc immunity and making it less wonky when you hit someone with it would go a long way for helping her viability i think.
sloverlord1 votesAnother thing that would probably help is simply swapping burnout to deal physical damage so she can build black cleaver.
Spaceman5pff5 votesWould that be an overall buff though? Plenty of power comes from mixed damage.
Great Muta5 votesYep. We have one champ who can go anywhere on the map and be strong and another who can only go in one lane and be sub-par.
Shyv can still be good but she needs to be tankier, she needs something to help her be more of a threat earlier on and desperately needs some kind of CC.
I should never get to the point as a jungler where I feel exhaust is more useful on a champ than flash.
warpenguin5554 votesI dont really mind it. Why cant Graves be better than Shyvana?
Dominick Destine3 votesI dont really mind it. Why cant Graves be better than Shyvana?
Because Graves has the luxury of having both ranged abilities and autoattacks. That's why.
That's on top of Graves have a fairly low CD dash. You get it?
warpenguin5554 votesso that means he has to be a subpar jungler? what kind of crap logic is that? why cant graves be a jungler?
Dominick Destine4 votesso that means he has to be a subpar jungler?
Compared to junglers that don't get his luxuries? yes.
what kind of crap logic is that? why cant graves be a jungler?
1- Don't be a joke. 2- No one said Graves can't be a jungler. 3- Graves needs nerfs.
Flitchee2 votesWell, aside from his resistances, where do you nerf him? Because as soon as you nerf his damage, hes actually useless, all that he would be is another bruiser
Dominick Destine1 votesWell, aside from his resistances, where do you nerf him?
The simple answer would be to remove the knockback on his autoattacks against non champions. Let him keep everything except that extreme bonus.
Shyvana suffers greatly and is considerably worse than Graves. Either Shyvana needs massive buffs across the board (Bad idea) or Graves needs to be toned down.
Flitchee2 votesSo you then put him in a situation where, he now is pigeon holed into top lane. Without the resistances, his jungle would be horrible, and putting him botlane is not an option unless as a counter pick to very specific adcs, as he just gets dumpstered by like every adc that has real range, because he can't trade autos well. Shyvana is in a bad state for several reasons, none of which are damage, or tankiness, she is bad because of kit flaws, and stupid mechanics about her ult. If her ult could not be interupted, or she had some kind of slow she would be very viable. She has no issues in the jungle, her clear speed is quite strong actually, her downfall is the lack of gank pressure.
Flitchee4 votesYou know, as much as people whine about graves, there is worse things in the game than him imo, and yeah I understand his strengths, and his weaknesses, (yes he actually has some, albeit theres only one that is really glaring, and its not always going to be there.) as i have a lot of graves games since his rework.
The main strength graves has in the jungle, is the ability to, if kiting camps and making full use of his kit properly, take next to zero damage. His ganks are not excellent to the extent of say Elise or ww at 6, but he has surprising damage to a lot of people, which winds up in netting kills for free, because they don't respect it. It is not hard to just walk away from the fellow unless you get stunned, I have no idea how many times people just eat 3 autos and walk next to a wall, and eat a q, only to die to the 4th auto, after flashing. Like just leave the area when he is seen, and his ganks become like Shyvana - small nuisances, his next best strength, is almost being able to out duel every jungler in a 1v1 scenario, there are a few that just shit on his day, mind you as they have just as much burst as you, without needing the enemy to misposition. His other strengths are present in a lot of junglers, as his dragon control is very good, but again, that can be said with almost every jungler. He also has strong wave clear. Here's the catch though. I don't know how many times, I'll find myself in a scenario, in the middle of a lane, when there's a minion wave, that smart people will just run through the wave and hide behind it, while being nowhere near a wall. Guess what that means? I have to run, or I lose. Why? because i now can't get all my q damage off reliably, and I no longer has the option to auto attack the champion because minions are in my way, so I have no possible way to get damage down.
Now all this in mind, do I think graves is balanced? He is probably not in the best spot, no, but theres one inherent flaw here, and that is that there is only one thing you can actually change on him, without ruining his identity, and that is either his E defensive steroids (already being done) or nerfing base stats, which might be a good direction, or reducing the damage from multi bullet hits, which is imo a bad way to go, but i could be biased on that, as the thing i like best about graves is his feel of, i need to be in your face. **Another change might be nice, is to make a change on his e, now this might be weird, but instead of it reloading auto attacks, and giving resistances, get it to work like Ezreal's E in a way. He dashes, and has a ranged auto, at say 450 range, and is a slug, kind of like his old autos. Keep the regular auto attacks reducing his E cd, but have the ability just not be a dash with tank stats, and instead just make him work more of an actual carry, as I do agree those numbers are asinine. **
Now, I do want to ask, is it graves damage, or his survivability that people hate about him?
EDIT: I did not mean for that to go so long, sorry. TL;DR Maybe get his e to have a small damaging aspect, rather than add defensive stats, (I bolded the idea i had with it) and he gets hard countered by not being near walls and having to try and auto through minions.
The Whamboozler2 votes"There are worse things than ____" doesn't mean much. Getting stabbed in the groin is worse than getting punched in the groin, but that doesn't make getting punched in the groin a GOOD thing. By your logic only the single most OP or broken champ in the game can be a problem, because everyone else can just look at that champ and say "at least I'm not THEM!".
I don't even have a stance on the "graves is OP" thing really. I'm just sick of that logic. "I'm not the worst so I'm excusable" means you ARE a problem... you're just trying to divert attention to a bigger problem and slip by unscathed.
Linna Excel4 votesI think there are a two problems here.
I think that because riot is trying to get away from afk farming junglers and I don't think they want power-farming to be as big of a thing, shyvana will need work in the future. Maybe that means moving her to top/mid. Maybe that means moving her away from power-farming junging only.
Ultîma3 votesShyvanna's gameplay is honestly so one-dimensional that I feel she's eventually headed towards a rework. I wonder where she would fall on the roster given a modern overhaul of her abilities.
specter4243 votesI'm more bothered that you idiots took this long to realize Graves was a problematic champ.
Slythion16 votesit's easy to be rude online, isn't it :3
besides, the boards have recognized graves jungle as being a problem for a long time now. It just hasn't been as popular as yasuo/zed
CypherDoom3 votesis not that graves is straight broken, i mean he is broken but the other top junglers are broken too. shyvana is a crappy jungler simply, her kit doest alow her to stick to people without getting kited easily. but nobody seems to remember the devourer meta in season 5 when shyvana just got to top tier jungler bc she did stupid damage, thats not good balance eather.
General Theritt2 votesOnce again, has anyone heard of 
? You have an escape, really long goddamn range, traps for mini control, CC, extra damage passive, good crit damage, superb teamfighting, and a sniper shot that tracks down its target. You play a good Cait bot lane and Graves basically can't touch you. "Omg Graves is OP nao plz make it stop" He literally comes back once simply because he became a safe pick as an AD carry ranged jg, and now EVERYONE (apparently) claims him OP/Annoying while no one complained when he was perfectly similar BEFORE the nerfs to the other junglers. Its like people don't understand "Everyone else got nerfed" of course he's still gonna be solid, he wasn't touched, its how Zac made his comeback into the current state he's in, where he's seeing a lot of play.
But hey, that's just me clearly farming downvotes on a page that doesn't understand how Graves isn't the best pick. I love gameplay forums =w=)b
LEEROY KLEDKINS2 votesI dont get why people struggle with current graves.
If against me or im supporting against an enemy graves he loses most games.
Because i never get too close, his reloading is a joke.