Why can mids abuse the support role but supports are nerfed from playing mid?

PapaGreg21·Feb 15, 2016·154 votes·9,403 views

I don't understand this. Champs like annie, brand and velkoz can just line up in a support role and oppress the enemy lane but janna, nami and these other support mages scale so poorly with ap you could never succeed consistently with them in a solo lane (except maybe sona). If supports weren't just 100 percent utility and no damage after the first 2 minutes of the game people would be interested in playing them more often.

And you know what, if they get too strong as a result, so be it. Maybe that's what the role needs to get people interested in it again.

Edit: Let's all be honest here, nobody is demanding that supports be able to 1 on 3 the enemy but the amount of damage they do past level 6 is beyond small. I am not advocating they be able to do anything more than REASONABLE damage under heavy AP-AD builds. Their current offensive damage with these builds is unreasonably low in my opinion and should be addressed.

231 Comments

ErockandrollFeb 15, 201665 votes

Presumably, because support champs have such strong strong duo lane synergy that any hint of solo lane viability means their support function is inherently OP.

Another problem may be that their supportive kit makes them very low risk. Lulu for example (a former support who moved midlane) will always have her utility, regardless of how fed she gets. Pair high ratio's with that, and you have a champ that is low risk, high reward. (that's my theory anyway)

KnoyleFeb 15, 201623 votes

meanwhile Zed

Don't get me wrong I understand what you are getting at but We have a good bit of low risk champions who aren't getting that sort of treatment.

Spizzle9000Feb 15, 201610 votes

Yup. This is a relevant and constructive comment.

/sarcasm

KnoyleFeb 16, 201617 votes

Alright, I'd like to address the fact that Zed is one of the safest champions in the game? Along with TahmKench who does valid damage with NO damage items?

I'm arguing that just being low risk Isn't a fair enough reason to have support character only viable in support roles. And I'm more than willing to hear your reason on why I am wrong. Maybe I am missing something?

Spizzle9000Feb 16, 201611 votes

Okay. The reason I made the super sarcastic comment is because this is a thread about supports being underplayed and not doing much damage and generally aren't viable elsewhere (gross over-simplification and stuff, but it's basically focusing on supports). Zed's a mid, not a support or a mid who is played supp sometimes. That's why I found it irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Anyways, Zed may be safe, but he's easily countered. I'm not gonna say that Zhonya's totally negates his damage or whatever, but the fact is, before the Duskblade, he was definitely manageable and has tons of counterplay, not just itemization. Avoid his shadows, especially early game. Dodge shurikens, but if you can't do that, stay behind your minions. Don't overextend. Don't play aggressively. Avoid getting close enough that he can throw a shadow on the side of you opposite to him so he can get an easy EQ then switch with his shadow to AA+E and ignite for the kill.

Don't stay in lane with low health, especially if he has ultimate. Play incredibly safely once he has ultimate if you haven't killed him yet (which is difficult to do as he's incredibly strong and pretty safe early on). Most Zeds are impatient and will towerdive you, and if you have high health, you will kill him or at least get him to waste ultimate. If you don't let Zed get kills, he falls off pretty hard. Ping if he's MIA so he doesn't get fed off of the rest of your team. An unfed Zed is pretty much a liability to the team he's on.

Then Tahm Kench, I don't play him so Idk. He's just pretty ridiculous rn. Zed is too with the new item for sure.

And your last sentences, well, your post I first replied to didn't really make it out that you were saying that too well. The fact is, most supports have a lot of utility and CC, so it would be pretty fucking terrifying if a lot of those supports were played elsewhere. Zed has a slow and damage and mobility, no hard CC. If supports had more damage and were made stronger in other positions, it would require significant nerfs to their CC because lots of utility and hard CC mixed with damage is absolutely unfair, which is why Sejuani during the Cinderhulk meta was so OP whoever thought she should remain in that state for as long as she was deserves to be locked in an asylum.

Basically, utility + cc + damage would be really quite unfair and it's very difficult to make a champion that is primarily designed for utility purposes into a viable pick in other lanes without significantly increasing their damage or sustain output so they can do things on their own more easily. That would be unfair because then supports would have those increased stats which would not only make them good in other lanes, which on its own would be okay, but would make them fucking monstrous played as supports because they'd still have their utility and CC, but with added damage and such.

At least that's the way I see it. Sorry for the wall of text!

KnoyleFeb 16, 20165 votes

Thank you for the wall of text. I like to read them.

Spizzle9000Feb 16, 20165 votes

Personally I prefer smashing my head into them just wishing for the end.

DELI MEATSFeb 16, 20161 votes

Why is it mages can bot then? Vel, Annie, and brand bring cc and dmg to bot. I'm not saying supports need tons of damage, but some would be nice to facilitate going elsewhere.

Spizzle9000Feb 17, 20163 votes

Why? Because each of them has much less utility than a support. Vel'koz has a slow on his ultimate and Q and a knockup. I won't deny that's pretty good, but all of your examples are more for damage and stuff. Annie has a stun. That's it. No other utility. Just shit tons of damage and an AoE nuke with a stun (is the Annie has half a brain) and Brand has damage and a pretty long stun.

They're supports when you want to do tons of damage, not tons of utility. Kill pressure is gained by sacrificing utility in these places. And if you took, say, Thresh, and made him do much more damage, then he would be insanely overloaded and overpowered. You simply cannot have a champion with as much utility as a support and give them a great deal of damage because not only would they be pretty strong in other lanes/roles, but when played as a support, they'd be absofuckinglutely insanely overpowered.

The only way to give more damage to supports would be to mess with numbers a bit so they have higher ratios but lower bases, I think I'd be okay with that, but that would make builds that don't involve damage being built trash tier. But, it's either that or nerf their utility, which would kill the whole purpose of the support class.

I'm barely capable of thinking on a higher level right now, so I apologize if this was worded poorly or something in advance.

DELI MEATSFeb 17, 20161 votes

You are completely right. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

It's just that I'm a support main and it would help me to be able to play those champs elsewhere. I also think it'd be more fun, but only if it didn't break them in either position. Not saying that's easy or possible, just that I'd like it.

Spizzle9000Feb 17, 20162 votes

Ah, thankies comrade. I am not usually very good at wording things, so I was worried it might not make sense xD

But yeah, that's the issue. Supports just have so much more utility, so balancing them to give them more damage would be an enormous pain in the ass, ya know?

ProfDrDeathFeb 15, 201610 votes

There was a time when Janna was played mid lane. Most uninteractive thing EVER.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVzqE0hAlGQ

Zenthon PrimeFeb 15, 20169 votes

This is the real reason. Usually when supports are played outside of support they're complete cancer because they're zero risk, Janna being the most obvious example. And I mean, actually-worse-than-Fizz tier.

RikariFeb 15, 20164 votes

Karma TahmKench Zilean most feared supports. Remember pre rework Zilean? I remember a Riven saying she couldn't do anything to a top lane Janna. Couldn't bat an eyelash. ~~Theres also the fact that support items are nerfed when they are seen outside support ~~ item 2049

ShonjlFeb 16, 20164 votes

Karma I personally never seen her as a support, EVER. She has and always will be a mid laner that has some nice utility.

Mid Karma will always do better in every way than support Karma since not only does she do the same thing, but also hit like a truck to boot.

Zilean I have seen him mid lane and become a force to reckon with if he isn't destroyed early game. unavoidable bomb nukes that with decent AP hit over 1k each is pretty hard to ignore. Hell I managed to get to 800 AP on him and literally 2 shotted an extremely fed Zed the rest of the game and made him entirely worthless since he literally had 2 seconds of life.

AbyssionKnightFeb 16, 20165 votes

Lemonnation played Karma support in LCS, and I know in the past I've played her in that role, and fought against it before, but she's such an uncommon pick I'm not surprised you've never seen her.

Troll for TrumpFeb 16, 20162 votes

Lulu top

Athenes LuluFeb 15, 201649 votes

They let Lulu become a solo laner permanently, though.

And no one bats an eye.

Cloud273Feb 15, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bbY6joA2,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-15T19:34:23.783+0000)

They let Lulu become a solo laner permanently, though.

And no one bats an eye.

Solo lane Lulu is garbage.

shyvFeb 15, 201616 votes

yeah that's why it was picked or banned almost every single game in the lcs last season

Athenes LuluFeb 15, 20165 votes

In team play Lulu anywhere is powerful.

Take that to SoloQ it's a disaster unless people play her like Lux/Vel'Koz and go full damage.

manbearswineFeb 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bbY6joA2,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2016-02-15T20:57:59.513+0000)

In team play Lulu anywhere is powerful.

not in the the support role,she's pretty subpar there.

Athenes LuluFeb 17, 20161 votes

Or people just refuse to cooperate and communicate.

Support playstyle is mainly tactics and hope-that-someone-follows-up, solo is mainly "skillful" button mashing and poke as hard as you can.

The latter is more popular and "more effective" because more people find it easier.

manbearswineFeb 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bbY6joA2,comment-id=000300000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-17T19:09:49.856+0000)

Or people just refuse to cooperate and communicate.

I can kinda say this about most champions.

Support playstyle is mainly tactics and hope-that-someone-follows-up, solo is mainly "skillful" button mashing and poke as hard as you can.

But lulu is kinda that follow up herself,she's not much of an initiator,unlike tanks,who seem to be doing pretty well.

The latter is more popular and "more effective" because more people find it easier.

...so lulu is somehow strong in bot lane even though she can't lane against most things? What? I mean janna basically follows on her team plays as well,and she's pretty strong,lulu in bot is a more vulnerable janna who trades worse but can poke better if the enemy is bad,then has issues warding late due to the cd increase on fqc.

Athenes LuluFeb 17, 20161 votes

Or have you seen an actual Lulu support? Probably not. It's like the Yorick/Galio kind of rare, if even. Or even the Jhin level of "bad" because his support is garbage.

I hardly have problems in lane against anything; my only problem is getting 4 man camped by the enemy team. Sona amd Karma does give me a hard time, but either abusing their squishyness or waiting till laning ends is usually what I do. Lulu support fares much better late game, but if smart enough can do well early on.

To deal with vision problems (which affects most supports anyways), I go Frostfang then rush sightstone ASAP. As Lulu support she requires a good deal botlane kmowledge, knowledge on most ADCs, and anticipation. Someone who has absolutely no clue on how to support will fail miserably, which is the case of 90% of Lulus I see.

manbearswineFeb 18, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bbY6joA2,comment-id=00030000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-17T19:48:21.332+0000)

Or have you seen an actual Lulu support? Probably not.

Played it quite a lot last season,also at the start of this season,kind of pointless with all the nerfs to vision,talisman, and fqc however.

It's like the Yorick/Galio kind of rare, if even. Or even the Jhin level of "bad" because his support is garbage.

It's not THAT rare.

I hardly have problems in lane against anything; my only problem is getting 4 man camped by the enemy team. Sona amd Karma does give me a hard time, but either abusing their squishyness or waiting till laning ends is usually what I do. Lulu support fares much better late game, but if smart enough can do well early on.

It's just pointless,she lacks the range to bully tanks past the first few levels(once they get enough of their kit to engage),and with the talisman nerfs you are forced to go spellthief->fqc meaning you can be poked in lane much more easily,which just ends up giving tanks even more control of the lane,add to that the fact she's more vulnerable than most (meta) supports to ganks(mostly because ganking tanks is harder) and you just get a champion who's not good,or at the very least VERY situational. And of course with the nerfs to fqc's active she's also more vulnerable when warding,which doesn't help.

Did I mention nerfing fqc's active was probably the most retarded things you could nerf about it,and that the talisman nerfs were done almost at random? It's like riot decided tanks(supports that is) aren't dominant enough,might as well buff them some more.

To deal with vision problems (which affects most supports anyways), I go Frostfang then rush sightstone ASAP.

It doesn't really solve them,they were an issue before,now they got even worse,sure you can "reduce"(it's not actually a reduction since this is basically her regular buildpath) them,but it doesn't change the fact it's just another + for tanks(well also janna and morg,due to heavy disengage).

As Lulu support she requires a good deal botlane kmowledge, knowledge on most ADCs, and anticipation.

...so does everything else.

Someone who has absolutely no clue on how to support will fail miserably, which is the case of 90% of Lulus I see.

...she also will fail miserably against people who know how to support,which based on your comment seems like it's 10% of your opponents. It always has been an issue in the lower tiers,they always give champions with a weak and vulnerable early more room than they should.

Athenes LuluFeb 18, 20162 votes

Good, smart ones are extremely rare. Stupid ones are everywhere. Go check out spec live matches and find an actual Lulu support; most of them play like they are scripted midlaners. Playing like that as Lulu botlane will only screw up botlane even more, feed, and all wonder why she sucks.

FQC nerfs are deserved. You really think a targeted, long ranged, vision revealing, 4 second slow active ON A 60 SECOND COOLDOWN, plus ~2k gold worth of stats is actually fair? Especially with how expensive Morello's and Athene's used to be, no wonder why midlaners are rushing FQC... The active is so spammingly powerful that even tanks are getting it. The nerfs are deserved, and I'm still using it fine. Instead of mashing it whenever it is off CD because its cooldown used to be so short, a scouting item like this is supposed to be used whenever scouting is needed.

Lulu is definitely subpar as a support compared to "meta" supports IN LANE, but that doesn't mean she is absolutely shit just because certain players have no fucking clue on what Lulu's E even does upon ally cast. For instance, is Azir shit just because 90% of the playerbase don't know how to use him? No. In fact, her job in lane isn't even to outpoke people, but to babysit the crap out of her ADC as some kind of survival island, unless her ADC knows how she works and therefore can take an advantage of kill lanes, poke lanes... you name it.

I never have a problem playing as Lulu support anytime during preseason, it's almost always my ADC who hardly ever know what on earth is a buff/debuff support. Some supports are simply "better" because their utility is more flashy and obvious, while as Lulu support her buffs are rather subtle. Yes, her shield is also an AA steroid; many people don't even know that. Vision? What about anticipation? How about instead of planting wards willy-nilly and get caught anyways, instead of just staying away unless there's an obvious minion shield when someone literally just walked in? Yeah yeah, sightstone does needs a bit of loving buffs here and there, but that alone doesn't mean a champion is absolutely shit.

TLDR she needs more than usual cooperation/game knowledge to be played botlane in general. If done right, it is actually pretty good. Not to the point where any random can tell what's going on, but that doesn't mean she's shit.

If you are not doing well on something, then you are probably missing out on something. I can help answer some questions if you would like.

YumaS2AstralFeb 15, 201616 votes

{quoted}

Solo lane Lulu is garbage.

A counter to assassins, one of the very few champions that is not completely dumpstered by Darius in lane, and you say that she is garbage at solo lane?

Unstoppable MonkFeb 15, 20165 votes

A counter to assassins you say?

Oh wait, everyone forgot about her in season 6. Not meta. =((

Voluug13Feb 16, 20161 votes

She cant abuse jungle items as much as can Xin.

Unstoppable MonkFeb 16, 201620 votes

She abuses champions not items.

Cloud273Feb 16, 20162 votes

{quoted}

A counter to assassins, one of the very few champions that is not completely dumpstered by in lane, and you say that she is garbage at solo lane?

Her utility honestly isn't that great, and neither is her poke/burst. If you want a utility solo laner, Karma/Kayle is better in almost every possible way.

DengedenFeb 16, 20167 votes

She has 2 forms of hard CC and can choose between damage and utility, that's huge and something Karma and Kayle can only dream of.

YumaS2AstralFeb 16, 20164 votes

{quoted}

She has 2 forms of hard CC and can choose between damage and utility, that's huge and something Karma and Kayle can only dream of.

This.

Lulu has a lot of disruption that Kayle and Karma lack. In addition, Lulu has a better lane phase than both of them.

Hyrum GraffFeb 15, 201612 votes

Janna Soraka Janna Nami Please stop calling us supports. We're utility carries. We often play in the support role.

Erockandroll gave a good description of why Riot doesn't like utility carries in solo lanes.

waspcreaturesxFeb 15, 20161 votes

One of my last games I had a Soraka mid on my team who First Blooded the enemy Katarina..

Spaceman5pffFeb 16, 20165 votes

Helps that katarina has a garbage tier early game

TussFeb 16, 20162 votes

Doesn't make it any less humiliating that the penta machine got beaten by a banana.

Spacesuit SpiffFeb 16, 201612 votes

Thing is supports are designed to function on a low budget, so if they ALSO scale well theyre pretty godly. Thats why theyre gimped in various ways to not work in solo lane. And often when they manage anyway its pretty ridiculous (raka and alistar a couple years ago)

Yuzuki YukarinFeb 16, 20166 votes

This exactly. Supports are early lane champs, they need strong base stats and rely on utility to stay relevant through the remainder of the match.

The moment any support champion has to start consistently relying on expensive items just to not be a complete hindrance to the team, perhaps as a direct cause of that character lacking the necessary bases and utility to be useful otherwise, that character has failed at the support role and become completely unplayable.

This becomes exponentially more problematic if the items that support is using as a crutch grant artificial numbers like with Spellblade. At that point, the champion not only lacks the bases and utility necessary to support, they also lack the scaling required for normal itemization. You're just left with an unplayable character that desperately clings to a fake sense of viability to mask the inherent underlying problems and that sadly people trick themselves into denying the truth of the situation.

khorneyFeb 15, 201610 votes

Zilean and sona can do quite well in a solo Lane.

ahferroin7Feb 15, 20163 votes

Add to that list: Janna (build her as a tank and she can stall a lane almost indefinately) Blitzcrank (more effective if you're opponent can't dodge, just sit under tower and pull then whenever you get a chance) Thresh (Playable as an AD or AP tank solo top) Tahm Kench (Nobody seems to remember that he was designed as a support, and no matter how much Riot nerfs him, he's still strong on the right team) Morgana (Can go anywhere but jungle) Leona (Viable as a AP tank top lane)