If Devourer is removed, Shyvana Q nerfs should be reverted

PapaGreg21·Apr 23, 2016·157 votes·6,862 views

There is really no reason to nerf her early clears/dueling if there isn't going to be a big power spike for her with the new jungle item. The q changes have severely hurt her top lane presence (which has already been below average) and Shyvana in her current state is very reliant on getting to the sated devourer power spike to succeed, especially since BOTRK was nerfed. Hopefully this is not another case of "let's wait and see how she responds over 9 months to make any changes" if the new item ends up making her underwhelming.

182 Comments

MrWasjigApr 23, 201667 votes

Revert a champion nerf after the offending item has been nerfed? Riot's response:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/583/267/e8a.gif

DeusVultApr 24, 201632 votes

Sejuani item 1401 Sion item 1413 Warwick item 1415 Shyvana item 3931

Ezreal "I really dont see why they need buffs, items have nothing to do with the strength of a champ"

SonaTitsAndAssApr 29, 20161 votes

that isnt really a quote from ezreal is it? ;-; and that fucker is designing champs.... no wounder all his champ designs are nearly infucking possible to balance

Zone of EndlessApr 23, 201624 votes

Is this what they call the Sejuani effect?

Lord GalvatronApr 23, 20161 votes

Yes, but we will have to see where she is after they actually remove it item. Calling it now is too soon with Guinsoo's picking up the reason why people hated Devourer so much.

GixiaApr 23, 20168 votes

Except Guinsoo's is an item that's not good on her, and adding the Devourer effect to it won't change that.

Lord GalvatronApr 24, 20161 votes

Considering that they are changing Guinsoo's a great deal, in not so sure of that. Futhermore, Shyv still has AP scaling on her E and Ult, and is easily able to get stacks on Rageblade with her Q (Now that to trigger the Guinsoo's rage is now 6 stacks. We also still have to deal with the fact that hybrid damage combined with % health damage is currently uncounterable with the exception of FH Malphite. Also there is no reason why you would have to replace a core item in order to obtain it (Btw BoTRK is not core on Shyv).

LankPantsApr 24, 20161 votes

Do you really expect a tanky bruiser to spend 3.5K on an item with 0 defensive stats. If you're going Rage Blade you'd also be building Blood Razor, which means you'd spend 6K gold on pure offence before you ever spend any on defence. Shyvana can't do that.

As you said BotRK isn't core on Shyvana, do you know why that is? Most of the time Shyvana cannot afford to buy two pure offensive items, so she doesn't.

SpecterVonBarenApr 24, 20162 votes

She already buys the current Devourer even though it has no defensive stats.... She could also purchase Cinderhulk instead and then get Guinsoo's.

GixiaApr 24, 20166 votes

She buys the current Devourer because she can afford to buy ONE pure offensive item, and Devourer has all the offensive stats she needs (attack speed, on-hit procs, phantom hit proc) for the very affordable price of 2450 making it an easy rush item so she can then divert the rest of her income into tank stats.

In comparison, Guinsoo's costs 3600, so about 50% more, making it a much larger investment. And for investing 50% more gold into it, she gets an item that's only 50% as good as Devourer. Guinsoo's, by default, has only AD (which while nice to have is less valuable than attack speed for her), AP (which is so worthless as to be completely wasted stats), and an on-hit proc which does only half as much damage as ZERO STACK Devourer. Compared to full stack Devourer, the on-hit proc is only 1/4 as strong. AP scaling on her E and R don't make AP good on her, because you don't use those skills for damage. E's damage is completely negligible, you're casting it for on-hit proc, which doesn't scale with anything but your opponent's max HP. Likewise, you're not casting R for the damage (though it's at least solid), you're casting it to close the distance between you and your enemy and/or for the increase in defensive stats.

Then, once you get into combat, you can start stacking it up, but a chunk of stacking it up continues to be dedicated to worthless AP and less valuable AD. You have to get 5 stacks before the stat you actually want, the attack speed, is up to par with Devourer/Bloodrazor. You have to get 6 stacks before phantom hit will actually activate, the ability for which you invested so much gold into wasteful stats to get. And even then, phantom hit isn't nearly as good as before, and it all goes back to that pitiful on-hit damage. Devourer at full stacks gives 60 damage on hit, and gives you phantom hit at all times. Guinsoo's gives 15 damage on hit, and only gives Phantom Hit once you've been in combat a few seconds already. And that's assuming you can stick to the target long enough to build stacks up to begin with and then keep them up without them CCing you, or jumping away and kiting you long enough for the stacks to fall off.

There is simply no way Guinsoo's can possibly put out as much damage on its own as Bloodrazor or even BotRK unless you're pairing it with more offensive items, offensive items that Shyvana can not afford to build. And there's certainly no way Shyvana, an already gold hungry champion, can afford to waste so much gold on useless stats like AP. There's a reason why, if Shyvana does happen to build a second offensive item, it's typically BotRK instead of the current Guinsoo's, despite how strong current Guinsoo's is with Devourer. It's because Guinsoo's is simply too much wasted stats to be justifiable on her, even for phantom hit. Bloodrazor and BotRK will both be more viable choices. Hell, Wit's End would be a more viable purchase than Guinsoo's will be, because at least then she gets good value from the MR steal (since even her AD scaling W deals magic damage), 40% AS by default, and the on-hit damage that hits harder than Guinsoo's does even WITH the phantom hit proc, and all for a much cheaper price point to boot.

whocares123Apr 24, 20164 votes

Guisinoos rageblade. Look at the stats. Really look at them. Tell me it isn't good on shyv.

No it does not provide sticking power, sustain, or tank stats.

THAT IS OKAY. If it did, it would be the most broken thing in the game.

While shyv does want these stats, she does tend to get at least one offensive item, whether that be sated dev, bork, or the current rageblade (it happens, I play it sometimes, people around me play it), her abilities are often enough to suffice. She already has sticking power with her w and a direct gap closer with her ult.

It may not always be a core item, but it will definitely be situational if you're vs a team that you need to out-duel or if your team doesn't have enough damage to win fights.

IT IS NOT USELESS STATS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

Shyvana has TWO AP scalings, one 60% on her e, one 70% on her ult. That is a good bit of damage, assuming 74 ap from a max stack rageblade, that's an extra 40 or so damage on her e and an extra 50 on her ult. Not useless. Yi goes rageblade all the time, and he will continue to do so after the patch - he only has one ap scaling on his heal, and it is nice but not necessary at all for his playstyle, but you don't see anybody complaining about the "wasted" stat for him do you?

Rageblade, while it doesn't give the extra magic damage on hit that devourer used to, it does give ad - 53 at max stacks. Sated gave 60 mgc dmg per hit, but that's only a 7 damage loss, which will stack up over time. But there's more.....

You get back 15 magic damage on hit. Which more than makes up for that 7 damage loss.

The new guisnoos rageblade will be stronger than either sated devourer or the current one.

GixiaApr 24, 20161 votes

Okay, I looked at them, and I'm telling you it isn't good on Shyv. It has less attack speed than any other offensive item she would want until after she's fully stacked it. It has less on-hit damage than any other on-hit item she could buy. It has AP that does nothing for her. It has AD that, while decent, is not as good for her as raw AS. And finally it has the phantom hit proc, which is less good because you don't get it until after you've fully stacked it, and then once you have it's STILL less good because Guinsoo's own on-hit proc is so weak.

Her W is only sticking power if the opponent has no CC or doesn't understand when to time their CC correctly (which admittedly is a lot of people). Her ult just catches you up to your opponent's mobility skill, which will come off cooldown before your ult will be useable again.

Even if you need to out-duel someone, you will get more value from BotRK or Bloodrazor. If you need more damage, you will buy both of those items before you will buy a Guinsoo's, and if you buy all three you will melt before you get the time to fight anybody.

No, her AP scalings are NOT a good bit of damage, because damage is (for the most part) not why you're using those skills. E's damage is negligible, especially since it's the skill you level last. You're using it to get the on-hit proc, which doesn't scale with anything but your opponent's max hp. For this reason, you're also using it at the start of a fight, before Guinsoo's has been stacked up. It then has a fairly lengthy CD. If you're opponent actually stands and fights you, good chance the fight ends before it comes back. If they run, the cast time makes casting it while chasing not something you want to do typically. Likewise, her ult is used mainly for the defensive stat boost and to close the gap. Unlike her E, the damage for her ult is at least solid, but not something you're so reliant on that it makes AP in any way desirable. Just because you have an AP scaling does not mean that you want AP, it's still a garbage stat. If it wasn't, then Rylai's/Liandry's Shyvana would probably be a thing.

The champions who actually use Guinsoo's do so because they can do do something to virtually guarantee they reach full stacks. Jax can stun you. Xin can knock you up. Kayle can hit you from range. And Yi is genuinely unkitable because he's immune to slows. Shyvana has none of those things, and thus she can't force the stacks. Yes, she can Q you to get a burst of them at the start, and then the person she hit can promptly jump away and slow her and that's as far as they'll go. Not only that, but champs who use Guinsoo's (especially Yi) typically build more offensive items than Shyvana can get away with, and so they have more space to build Guinsoo's AND something else, typically multiple something elses, because Guinsoo's typically wants other items paired with it to be strong.

You do not start a fight at max stacks with rageblade. Giving more damage at max stacks does not mean you do more damage because you need to fight for long enough to GET to max stacks, and then continue to fight for long enough for damage at max stacks to outscale. Plus something you're neglecting, Phantom Hit proc does not give a fuck about your AD.

Series of Devourer AAs goes like this: 60 > 120 > 60 > 120 > 60 > 120 > 60 > 120 > 60 > 120 = 900 total damage Series of Rageblade AAs goes like this: 35+15 (50) > 38+15 (53) > 41+15 (56) > 44+15 (59) > 47+15 (62) > 50+15 (65) > 53+30 (83) > 53+15 (68) > 50+30 (83) > 50+15 (68) = 735 total damage

So let's see, after 10 auto attacks, Devourer has done 900 damage, while Rageblade has done 735. While the non-phantom hit proc is dealing 8 damage more thanks to the AD, the phantom hit proc is doing 37 damage LESS because because Rageblade's on-hit proc is so weak. Not only that, but those Devourer AAs all came faster because it has 40% AS by default, and Guinsoo's doesn't hit 40% until stack 5. By time Guinsoo's gets 48% AS at stack 6, the damage deficit is so large that Rageblade isn't going to outscale Devourer unless the fight goes for like 5 minutes, if it outscales it at all.

Now, you could make the argument that the AD makes up for this because it empowers her Q and W, but then AD is also weakened by armour, which more champions have and in larger amounts whereas Devourer's damage is purely magic, with MR typically being present on fewer enemies and in smaller numbers.

Then, afterall that, you take into account that Rageblade is also MORE EXPENSIVE than Devourer is, and not by a small amount, by 1200 gold. This forces her to build Cinderhulk first, which not only delays her damage spike substantially, but also delays her ability to build better tank items. For less gold than that, I could build Devourer and go straight into Deadman's Plate, giving me more damage, more tankiness, faster and for less gold than Cinderhulk into new Rageblade.

If you are seriously trying to make the argument that new Rageblade is superior to Devourer, you are just straight up wrong.

whocares123Apr 25, 20161 votes

Your points are generally fairly valid, and I do know that there are these drawbacks of the this item. That is why I have been saying that it probably won't be a core item on shyv, but it will be very considerable if she was more offensive power.

There is also the possibility of creating a slightly off-meta build with this item in which you add other items with on-hit damage (wits end for example) and make an on-hit build using this.

If you were to use this item to it's full effectiveness then you would probably want to buy something like frozen mallet to help against people who kite.

Also, keep in mind that shyvana's playstyle does not necessarily rely on her being able to chase after people and catch them. This item could add the threat of being able to duel anybody, which in and of itself can allow her to put a ton of map pressure, which is what she should be looking to accomplish in the game.

It also would make running around the jungle to clear camps very very fast, since you could easily run from one camp to the other with this item fully stacked most of the time. It would also make her stellar at taking down epic monsters (although bork because of it's %max health damage could compete with this).

"Now, you could make the argument that the AD makes up for this because it empowers her Q and W, but then AD is also weakened by armour, which more champions have and in larger amounts whereas Devourer's damage is purely magic, with MR typically being present on fewer enemies and in smaller numbers."

Here's the thing, the mage update is coming out at the same time, and a lot of mages will be very very strong now, you will probably start to see more magic resist items being used that armor when that happens. So, while I would have considered this a good point a month ago, not really when that update hits.

And yes there is a staggering gold difference between dev and rageblade, but keep in mind that:

A. Devourer was only available to one person on each team - the jungler.

B. You had to actually stack devourer for at least (if you were really really fast) 5 minutes. And usually you'd end up waiting much longer than that to actually stack it. And in the time it takes to stack devourer, you could easily have already made enough gold to make up the difference of that deficit.

If you were to take the numbers you gave for what the damage would be every 9 auto attacks, and continue that for another 6 autoattacks, then I understand your point. Because a fully stacked rageblade only beats sated devourer by 3 damage after 6 autoattacks. BUT, I may also say that sated devourer will no longer be in the game. So it's not really worth comparing the two items because we will no longer be able to use one of them lol. And unless your vs a team of mostly tanky people then the devourer replacement isn't going to be very effective, and even then you have to wait till late game to get full effectiveness out of the new jungle item, plus you'd probably be getting that anyway so it doesn't even matter.

GixiaApr 25, 20162 votes

{quoted} BUT, I may also say that sated devourer will no longer be in the game. So it's not really worth comparing the two items because we will no longer be able to use one of them lol.

YOU were the one trying to compare the two items, saying that Rageblade would be equal to, if not superior to, Devourer. My point was to establish that this is false and they are nowhere even close to equal. And once it's established that Rageblade could not compete with Devourer, to claim that it's a good replacement for the loss of Devourer just because they both share the Phantom Hit proc becomes a losing argument.

Also, the mage update isn't going to cause every team to suddenly start being 4 mages and an ADC. Armor will continue to be built in greater quantities than MR outside of games where the enemy midlane is snowballing.

Off-meta builds are off-meta for a reason. I could run Liandry's and Rylai's on Shyvana as an off-meta build and make Burnout do hilariously silly things to people, but that doesn't actually make either of those items good for her.

And it's funny that you mention BotRK competing with Rageblade for jungle clears because of max health % damage (which it doesn't have, BotRK is current health %), but then rag on Bloodrazor a minute later, despite the fact that Bloodrazor actually DOES have max health % damage. Also, you're clearly underestimating Bloodrazor, as the entire point to max health % damage is that it naturally scales throughout the game and is equally good at killing both squishies and tanks. It won't need an enemy team full of tanks to be effective, it has 40% AS right from the start without needing to be stacked (with AS being Shyvana's primary offensive stat, this can not be overstated how significant this is), and it's cheaper, allowing her to build tank faster and more efficiently by buying better tank items than Cinderhulk. It also naturally synergizes with her kit by double stacking the max health % shred she already gets from her E. The only unfortunate thing about it is that the damage is physical instead of magic.

whocares123Apr 25, 20161 votes

"YOU were the one trying to compare the two items, saying that Rageblade would be equal to, if not superior to, Devourer."

I was making a passing comment about the two, I didn't intend on writing an essay on the two.

"My point was to establish that this is false and they are nowhere even close to equal."

What I WILL agree with is that sated dev is better for specifically shyv than the new rageblade. BUT, as an item in general, I will still hold that rageblade is a better item than sated dev because of the extra stats it gives, on certain champions.

"Armor will continue to be built in greater quantities than MR outside of games where the enemy midlane is snowballing."

This I disagree with, but we'll just have to see what happens when the mage update comes out.

"Off-meta builds are off-meta for a reason. I could run Liandry's and Rylai's on Shyvana as an off-meta build and make Burnout do hilariously silly things to people, but that doesn't actually make either of those items good for her."

Something being off-meta does NOT automatically mean it is bad. Kennen made appearances as both an ADC and a support in the lcs, until that happened these were both off-meta ways to play kennen. Hell, they're still off-meta ways to play kennen, even though they are pefectly VIABLE. The reason I brought up the possibility for this shyvana build is because it could be viable.

"And it's funny that you mention BotRK competing with Rageblade for jungle clears because of max health % damage (which it doesn't have, BotRK is current health %), but then rag on Bloodrazor a minute later, despite the fact that Bloodrazor actually DOES have max health % damage."

Yeah the max health thing was a typo. And I did underestimate blood razor, not fully realizing the implications of %max health damage.

"The only unfortunate thing about it is that the damage is physical instead of magic."

That's actually a good thing unless you were actually going to do a build based off of penetration, as it makes it harder to effectively counter build her.

Lord GalvatronApr 25, 20161 votes

I'm not sure where the discussion is going, since the original argument was never comparing the two at all (Since comparing the upcoming Rageblade to the current Sated devour is completely pointless because they won't even coexist next patch).

Furthermore, when this new (mage/item/etc.) patch comes out, the meta will change dramatically. The mages will be getting supercharged, in which the same exact thing will occur when the Marksmen update came out. You will most likely see multi-mage comps and AP tanks will become literal gods.

My best estimate is that unless the patch is tuned/augmented down, this will essentially become a second preseason and anything could happen. That being said, with the new update, I can see Shyvana using the new Guinsoo as a means as easy Hybrid damage (for all that is worth, she might be played dramatically less after the patch).

whocares123Apr 23, 201620 votes

While devourer is getting removed, keep in mind that the sated devourer passive is being relocated to guinsoos rageblade.

The Blue RajahApr 23, 201611 votes

Which is not a good item for her.

Sona PingApr 23, 201627 votes

Being relocated to an item that she never buys.

LlaniteApr 23, 20164 votes

Kindly explain to me why Shyv would buy Devourer for the passive but not Guinsoo?

AninLegions777Apr 23, 20167 votes

AP scaling isn't really relevant on Shyv.

PÿröApr 23, 201618 votes

Because item 3124 will have to stack up 6 times even for melee for the phantom hit passive to go off, so you're waiting to get the passive THEN make use of it as Shyvana, and that's not great unless it's a prolonged fight or you've been fighting something right before. And Shyvana doesnt benefit much from the AP part of rageblade, she might as well just go with another item.

XeroKimoApr 24, 20163 votes

Well actually Shyv can stack guinsoos in 2 hits, unless they removed the double the stacks per auto on melee, her q is counted as 2 auto attacks so auto Q and she has the passive already, and not to mention tho bloodrazor deals 3% of max hp and bonus ad, while her E when landed is 2% max hp as magic, therefore shyv is still potentially strong

LankPantsApr 24, 20167 votes

It stacks on attack, not on hit and melees only gain 1 stack. It takes Shyvanna 6 hits to charge it, just like it takes Kayle 6 hits. On of these champs is obviously far better with the item.

Mai Waifu IreliaApr 24, 20162 votes

Melee get 2 stacks, ranged get 1. If Kayle has her E activated, she gets 1 stack per attack. If Kayle doesn't have her E activated, she gets 2 stacks per attack. Also unless it's being changed, it is 8 stacks to get the final passive, not 6.

LankPantsApr 24, 20167 votes

That's being changed, all champs gain 1 per attack now.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/ZgBgc5BA-guinsoos-rageblade-devourer-and-bloodrazor?comment=00180000

RisenDarkKnightApr 24, 20161 votes

One is a cheap jungle item, one is 3600 gold and a lot of that is AP which doesn't benefit her

whocares123Apr 24, 20163 votes

What the hell are you guys talking about, have you looked at shyvana's stats? She has two ap scalings, a 60% on her e and a 70% on her ult!

The ap from this item literally benefits her more than it does yi, and I don't see anybody caring about the wasted ap for him.

DeathBurstApr 25, 20161 votes

Thank you! The Yi example nails it on the head...

The Bearded BardApr 25, 20161 votes

Yi can afford a 3600 rageblade, shyvana cannot. Yi is extremely safe at what he does. Between the frames of immortality from Q, the massive damage reduction and healing from W, the ability resets on kills and assists, the true damage on hit, and the lifesteal fueled sustain, he can build whatever he wants and still get the job done. Shyvana on the other hand, needs to get tanky and she needs to get tanky fast. Her passive helps with that a bit, more resists never hurt, but she needs health to back it up. She can't afford to rush a 3600 gold damage item, especially one that has to be charged up 6 times to effectively use.

DeathBurstApr 25, 20161 votes

Well, Shyv still uses the AP more than Yi, and nobody complains about AP on Guinsoo for Yi. His only AP scaling is a mediocre one on the heal, that he usually doesn't channel fully anyway.

FortisDominusApr 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

While devourer is getting removed, keep in mind that the sated devourer passive is being relocated to guinsoos rageblade.

shyvana's dont get guinsoos

Pierce The VealApr 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

While devourer is getting removed, keep in mind that the sated devourer passive is being relocated to guinsoos rageblade.

Also keep in mind that Shyvanna basically never wants ap, unless jn the case of old guinsoos, where the item is extremely efficient

JbelsApr 23, 20167 votes

Pfffft! PFFFFFFFFFTTTT

Fat chance, suckah!

Call Me NanaApr 23, 20167 votes

Welcome to the Sejuani effect: Sejuani Sion Karma Elise and now the newest member of the team: Shyvana

Lil Gr33n GhoulsApr 23, 20162 votes

She could just build Razor into Rageblade now.

GixiaApr 23, 20166 votes

Then get melted because she has no survivability, sticking power, and wasted a ton of gold on stats that are worthless to her like AP.

Lil Gr33n GhoulsApr 23, 20161 votes

It's pretty much the same build for her if she builds Devourer into Bortrk then tank now which I from what I understand is still pretty common.

PB4UAMEApr 24, 20163 votes

Devourer and BotRK give her no wasted stats, and require zero ramp-up, as well as the BotRK applying a slow + haste giving her much better sticking power.

Razor -> rageblade gives her no sticking power, a ton of wasted gold in AP, a 6 auto attack ramp time (which, lets face it, is about as long as you'd be able to stick to a gap-closerless champion if you're lucky, and way longer than you could stick to anyone with peel and escapes-- let alone a team fight) and way less item synergy and attack speed which happens to be one of the most useful stats on Shy.

KynamiApr 23, 20161 votes

This just means she can get phantom hits with going Rageblade after Madreds or Cinderhulk and can have a reliable power spike at that point. Denying scuttles doesn't mean anything other than she finds another of your camps to make money off of.

NuparuApr 23, 201611 votes

There's absolutely zero reason to build Guinsoos on Shyvana even with Phantom Hit since she needs the survivability/burst from Titanic or the sticking power from Blade of the Ruined King.

Guinsoos offers neither.

LegacyDAPApr 23, 20161 votes

Buy Guinsoo's build tank. Problem solved. Shyv will build it guaranteed.

NuparuApr 23, 20166 votes

no she won't

sated was good for shy cause it gave her an extra 120 flat damage on her Q + a bonus of a proc of her E again

guinsoos doesn't offer any extra flat onhit damage = 100% chance she won't build it cause why would she build that over blade or titanic

LegacyDAPApr 23, 20164 votes

My bad, I didn't really do the math on it. I was stupid even commenting that lol.

My Waifu VanillaApr 23, 20161 votes

Surivability and sticking power? item 1401

GixiaApr 23, 20166 votes

Blue smite is not sticking power on a champ who relies on sustained damage over burst.

My Waifu VanillaApr 23, 20163 votes

But BoRK is? They both steal ms and BoRK only takes 5% more than blue smite (on a much longer cd).

The post I replied to said Shyvana relied on BoRK for "sticking power" when Blue smite does the exact same thing. Your response makes it sound like Shyvana has to must buy Frozen Mallet every game if she wants "sticking power" which is generally false.

Shyvana inherently runs faster than most champions on the rift so going for Blue Smite means it allows you to get in melee range and stay there since you simply run faster than your target and still have your ult as a gap closer if they attempt to use one as well. That being said Blue Smite+Cinderhulk into Rageblade and going straight tank (you can even get a Frozen Mallet or Randuin's later if you really have problems sticking to targets) is going to probably be the better build.

IcyPepperApr 24, 20165 votes

BORK steals slightly more MS and lasts a whole second longer, for one.

Also it doesn't require taking smite. Some of us would like to lane with Shyvanna, you know.

GixiaApr 24, 20161 votes

5% more is actually an increase of 10%, since it's both slowing them down and speeding you up. It's also an extra second, which makes a huge difference for CC. Plus it also does more damage. All relevant details.

And simply running faster than the opponent is not enough on its own. They don't need to run from you forever, they only need to run far enough to catch up with their team, or get to tower safety, or even just get to a wall to jump over. Yes, Shyvana can also jump with her ult, but she gets to do that once, whereas most champs with mobility skills will be able to use their skill multiple times because Shyvana doesn't burst. She's sustained damage which means she has to be able to stand there auto-attacking. The more she has to move, the less auto-attacks she's going to get in, the slower she's going to kill the target, the more time the target has to escape to safety or have mobility and/or CC skills come back off CD. Blue smite is straight up not enough. It has never been enough, it never will be enough. If it was, Shyvanas wouldn't have had to rush BotRK before. They wouldn't still be building BotRK over Guinsoo's now.

Also, new Guinsoo's into straight tank would be terrible. Phantom Hit isn't even a fraction as relevant if you don't have other on-hit effects to stack it with. Without attack speed, you won't even be able to stack Guinsoo's up enough to get to Phantom Hit in time to be relevant in the fight. Not to mention stats like AP that just does nothing for you. On top of that the fact that Guinsoo's is also more expensive. So you're taking longer to buy an item that's less good for you to begin with, that you can't even use half of, and that doesn't do much until you buy other items later, items that you can't buy because you're apparently going full tank.

That is a terrible idea. Guaranteed it will not be the better build. Not only will it not be the better build, it won't even be a VIABLE build compared to Bloodrazor or BotRK. Hell, calling it now, Wit's End will be a more viable pick than Guinsoo's on Shyvana. At least she gets huge value from the MR shred.

Celeste BenalApr 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

5% more is actually an increase of 10%, since it's both slowing them down and speeding you up. It's also an extra second, which makes a huge difference for CC. Plus it also does more damage. All relevant details.

And simply running faster than the opponent is not enough on its own. They don't need to run from you forever, they only need to run far enough to catch up with their team, or get to tower safety, or even just get to a wall to jump over. Yes, Shyvana can also jump with her ult, but she gets to do that once, whereas most champs with mobility skills will be able to use their skill multiple times because Shyvana doesn't burst. She's sustained damage which means she has to be able to stand there auto-attacking. The more she has to move, the less auto-attacks she's going to get in, the slower she's going to kill the target, the more time the target has to escape to safety or have mobility and/or CC skills come back off CD. Blue smite is straight up not enough. It has never been enough, it never will be enough. If it was, Shyvanas wouldn't have had to rush BotRK before. They wouldn't still be building BotRK over Guinsoo's now.

Also, new Guinsoo's into straight tank would be terrible. Phantom Hit isn't even a fraction as relevant if you don't have other on-hit effects to stack it with. Without attack speed, you won't even be able to stack Guinsoo's up enough to get to Phantom Hit in time to be relevant in the fight. Not to mention stats like AP that just does nothing for you. On top of that the fact that Guinsoo's is also more expensive. So you're taking longer to buy an item that's less good for you to begin with, that you can't even use half of, and that doesn't do much until you buy other items later, items that you can't buy because you're apparently going full tank.

That is a terrible idea. Guaranteed it will not be the better build. Not only will it not be the better build, it won't even be a VIABLE build compared to Bloodrazor or BotRK. Hell, calling it now, Wit's End will be a more viable pick than Guinsoo's on Shyvana. At least she gets huge value from the MR shred.

Shyvanna is faster than most champs because of her W. She has absolutely no issues outrunning many many champs. Feel free to chase her through the Fire and the Flames. And that "one time only" ult has saved my ass so many times I cannot count it. Its range is much greater than almost every other mobility skill in the game. RW, lata.

Shyvanna is perfectly capable of bursting. I've bursted entire teams with Sated Devourer + Rageblade just by pressing REWQ with my cursor on them. 2 or 3 AAs later everyone is gone and I'm sitting there asking myself "WTF just happened? Why are they all dead? Oh, yeah, and who stole my penta?"

Shyvana's E applys a debuff that deals 2.5% max HP physical damage on hit. So she scales quite well with AS items. And the new Bloodrazor adds an additional 3% on top of that.

Shyvana has 2 AP scalings in her kit; on her ult and on her E. So the AP from Rageblade is not at all wasted. As for stacking it, please press WQ. Watch her stacks go from 0 to 6 in about 1 second.

I'm not saying you should build Rageblade after Bloodrazor every game you play her jg. You will be very squishy if you do. The default is still going to be Titanic Hydra. But Rageblade will still be good on her because she will still be able to stack it quickly, and she will still benefit from everything that it gives her. The biggest hurdle will be its new much higher cost.