I feel that CT should be relegated to VGUs only

EinarUlfar·Jan 31, 2018·50 votes·2,098 views

Because seldom do I hear someone speak of how much they enjoy playing against his champ designs. But the Warwick rework was arguably the best VGU we've had yet.

47 Comments

AMYS GRAVEFeb 1, 201839 votes

He also reworked Cait with her (functionally) unclearable traps that can fill the width of a lane.

He also reworked Morde into the mess that he is now.

You point to WW but that's not the only rework he's done, it's just his only successful one.

YumaS2AstralFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He also reworked Cait with her (functionally) unclearable traps that can fill the width of a lane.

He also reworked Morde into the mess that he is now.

You point to WW but that's not the only rework he's done, it's just his only successful one.

he also reworked Graves if I am not mistaken, and Graves has been a balancing nightmare in the past.

WimbledofyFeb 1, 20182 votes

When were Cait's traps ever clearable?

ForeverLaxxFeb 1, 20187 votes

The spammability of her traps was a lot lower, so you could "clear" them by stepping on them. You'd take some damage for it, but she couldn't immediately toss out another wave to waste your effort. Now, not only is it far more unsafe to do so thanks to the free Headshot, she can just sprinkle more traps around the lane after she kills you for stepping on her traps in the first place. It's not worth the effort or time anymore since she doesn't lose anything for it.

OleandervineFeb 1, 20181 votes

She used to only have 3 maximum, at level 5. The cooldown was considerable, and it didn't make you take shitloads of damage for her shooting you if you got caught.

Jet SettFeb 1, 20181 votes

WW is also his most recent, and his track record for that compared to his actual champions is much better. No one loves his champions, and Darius is the only one getting a pass because he isn't doing so hot anymore.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 31, 201823 votes

He should not design champions, and if he is allowed to do VGUs, he should be carefully monitored and reigned in as with WW.

EinarUlfarJan 31, 201816 votes

Agreed. Clearly whoever he was monitored by during the rework knew what constitutes as good or bad design.

PokladnicaZlaFeb 1, 20181 votes

Think,someone mentioned he had to keep the rework as simple as possible and "new-player-friendly" . Tbh,WW did feel pretty strong after the Rune Reforge update.

If he goes the same route with Akali,it would be quite interesting.

MordepoolJan 31, 201816 votes

And Mordekaiser rework arguably the worst in League history. As a body of work he has done more good than bad. But his bad is the worst

AbibyamaJan 31, 201813 votes

I mean, with VGUs you spend more time with the champion and test out diffrent kits and find out what works the best

And Morde was part of the rushed half baked class reworks

Dead flag bluesJan 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I mean, with VGUs you spend more time with the champion and test out diffrent kits and find out what works the best

And Morde was part of the rushed half baked class reworks

There's also a "template" of the champ ( Galio with a few exceptions obviously) , so it doesn't make random skills that shouldn't be in game (aka Yasuo W and Kalista perma-hopping)

SHANK LUX MAINSJan 31, 20184 votes

Both of those skills are fine tho

MordepoolJan 31, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I mean, with VGUs you spend more time with the champion and test out diffrent kits and find out what works the best

And Morde was part of the rushed half baked class reworks

Point taken

TotalJerkJan 31, 20188 votes

The juggernaut update as a whole was an organizational clusterfuck, to be fair. The only successful rework to come from it was Darius, and the whole thing was rushed. Skarner isn't even a juggernaut for fuck sake.

Tails9016Feb 1, 20181 votes

Skarner isn't even a juggernaut for fuck sake.

https://i.imgur.com/QdjZqSh.png[/img]

Skarner has no reliable way to reach the enemy, but is a raidboss when ahead and can master his unique mechanic/mini-game* (Spires/passive, not that they're a good design as is).

*Unique mechanics/mini-games on Juggernauts include but are not limited to Darius passive and Illaoi passive.

BârdFeb 1, 20186 votes

Skarner doesn't have the raw damage output of a juggernaut, and instead has loads of CC and raw durability.

He's a Vanguard.

Tails9016Feb 1, 20188 votes

He's a Vanguard.

I may or may not have forgotten those exist

VexingRavenFeb 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I may or may not have forgotten those exist

I don't think they do, has Riot or even the community ever used that term?

Sightless66Feb 1, 20182 votes

Yes. They've even talked before about how Skarner is in-between a Vanguard and a Juggernaut.

BârdFeb 1, 20182 votes

On launch, it was pretty shit design.

It's been improved enough that I'd say he's better designed now than he was before the rework, but he still needs some work.

MordepoolFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

On launch, it was pretty shit design.

It's been improved enough that I'd say he's better designed now than he was before the rework, but he still needs some work.

I would definitely be on the other side of that argument

4th3t0sFeb 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

worst in League history.

Karma , not even the same champion anymore; especially after the shield bomb was removed.

chipndip1Feb 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

And Mordekaiser rework arguably the worst in League history. As a body of work he has done more good than bad. But his bad is the worst

The guy that made Teemo made Ezreal...who also made Malzahar.

No, CT is not the worst.

OleandervineFeb 1, 20182 votes

Teemo, Ezreal, and Malzahar had simple kits with very visible windows of opportunity, and they actually have weaknesses. PLus, they're OLD AS HELL. CertainlyT's champions lose their weaknesses as skill level rises, and they're brand new designs, which shouldn't be stumbling into the pitfalls of some of League's earliest mistakes, so I would consider his designs the worst. He also overburdens champions with mechanics and bells and whistles, making them complicated. His early designs (Darius, Zyra) aren't actually that crazy or complex, but after those, they've been getting more and more overloaded with things, and his power distribution in his kits has been lacking and ill proportioned.

chipndip1Feb 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Teemo, Ezreal, and Malzahar had simple kits with very visible windows of opportunity, and they actually have weaknesses. PLus, they're OLD AS HELL. CertainlyT's champions lose their weaknesses as skill level rises, and they're brand new designs, which shouldn't be stumbling into the pitfalls of some of League's earliest mistakes, so I would consider his designs the worst. He also overburdens champions with mechanics and bells and whistles, making them complicated. His early designs (Darius, Zyra) aren't actually that crazy or complex, but after those, they've been getting more and more overloaded with things, and his power distribution in his kits has been lacking and ill proportioned.

So between the guy that makes champs you don't like and the guy that has made multiple champs that are so legitimately horribly designed that Riot has had to go out of their way to alter the game's itemization ** Ezreal JUST FOR THEM Vladimir , **and is on record calling Vlad a mistake, CT's worse?

Like, you can't make this shit up.

OleandervineFeb 2, 20181 votes

Yes, because those champions are old, have been in the game for almost a decade now, and are in need of updates and modernization. CertainlyT makes new champions that fall into pretty big holes that he should know to avoid due to past mistakes by designers. It's one thing to be a relic of the past and be a bad design. It's another thing to actively make a brand new bad design without learning from the past.

chipndip1Feb 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes, because those champions are old, have been in the game for almost a decade now, and are in need of updates and modernization. CertainlyT makes new champions that fall into pretty big holes that he should know to avoid due to past mistakes by designers. It's one thing to be a relic of the past and be a bad design. It's another thing to actively make a brand new bad design without learning from the past.

Doesn't matter about the time stamp on the champs. Point is that Ezreal's designs have been far worse for the game by huge degrees even ever since I started in season 5. They aged relatively poorly, they're generally bland, "safe" designs that hardly bring anything special or new to the game, and they're the REAL balancing nightmares of this game. CT made Kalista, yeah, but outside of that, people's whining about him is straight hyperbole in most cases.

You guys can toss excuses all you want. Ezreal is a way bigger offense to the game's balance as a whole than any other champ in the game, period. No one can just fucking enjoy on-hits because of him. Hell, we just recently had to hard nerf Klepto for ranged champs because of him.

OleandervineFeb 2, 20181 votes

I don't think you understand my point. Yes, Ezreal and some older champs are unhealthy for the game and balancing nightmares. However, my point on that is that they're ANCIENT designs, from the really early days of League, and they need to have a VGU or GU to update those ancient kit designs to modernize them, and stop them from being cancer. Look at Old Poppy vs New Poppy, or Old Evelynn vs New Evelynn. It's a slow process to get them all updated, but it is happening.

And then we get to CertainlyT. Every single one of his champs he has designed has been purely unhealthy on launch. Kalista is one of the worst in the last few years. The statement that his unhealthy designs make is that he is leaping headfirst into the pitfalls that older champion designers fell into years and years ago. A modern designer, knowing what problems caused champions to be unhealthy in the past, should not be actively designing champions with many of the same flaws. You are supposed to learn from the past and carve out a different future based on improvements upon your failures, not repeat your failures ad nauseum. CertainlyT has a substantial track record for making universally unhealthy and unfun champions to play against until the balance team wrestles them into submission. Something is inherently wrong with his designing skills if he keeps making these same mistakes every time he doesn't have someone holding his hand, such as when he was on the Warwick VGU team.

chipndip1Feb 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you understand my point. Yes, Ezreal and some older champs are unhealthy for the game and balancing nightmares. However, my point on that is that they're ANCIENT designs, from the really early days of League, and they need to have a VGU or GU to update those ancient kit designs to modernize them, and stop them from being cancer. Look at Old Poppy vs New Poppy, or Old Evelynn vs New Evelynn. It's a slow process to get them all updated, but it is happening.

Riot isn't touching Ezreal. I'd honestly bet money on it. Riot's commented on all the champs they're looking to VGU. None of them are Ezreal, or Malz, or Kog, or Teemo, or Tristana, or whoever else. NONE of them, yet these champs plague the game's balance far worse than any CT champ has. These champs screwed over the game's balance on fundamental levels. To the game's core. And here the boards are complaining about Yasuo every single dang day while these just slide right on by. It's annoying. I don't care about the age of the champs. The point is that these champs are way worse designs than anything CT's coughed up. Not only are they bland, generalist designs which have little in the way of counter-play in many cases, but they're also more unhealthy for the game's balance. Point. Blank. Period.

And then we get to CertainlyT.

You keep blaming the guy for not learning from previous failures. So the guy that's made a shit ton of counter-play lacking champs comes out with Malzahar, and we just ignore that? In a game that emphasizes counter-play, Ahri was given 3 dashes on her ult, which allows her to just jump out of nearly anything, and we just ignore that? You guys certainly play favorites on who you want to hate.

Or how about Jinx? She's just a generalist hyper-carry, and she's one of the newest hyper-carry marksmen in the game. She's so generalist that Riot had to chop up her whole kit for about a year, which left her in the dumps for all of season 7.

How about the work they did on Sona? They're supposed to learn from their mistakes, right? They turned Sona into more of a mindless button masher with her mini-rework. How is that learning from anything? That's new work, right? Xin's mini-rework made him better by adding new elements to his ult and a brand new move, but Sona's mini-rework just makes her slam her face into a keyboard faster and harder.

Like, I get it: People don't like Zoe blowing them up when she's fed. People aren't happy with their ult getting nullified by a regular spell. Still, a lot of champs can be "annoying". When you make the claim that someone's champs are "balancing nightmares" and "fundamentally broken", that's where I feel the need to reel things back into reality. CT's designs tend to tread on new territory, which is why they cause the uproar they do. Like, look at how lame Ivern is, for example. Trigger Seed? Basically works like a Sion shield. Ult? Basically a more fleshed out Tibbers. Q? Ropes allies to the target, otherwise it's just a root. W? What type of fucking gimmick is that? Passive? See W. That's the champion. Nothing actually new to the game play experience as a whole except he brings Enchanter tools to the jg role, but nothing he does is actually anything big for the game, save wondering why two enemies have blue buff when you have your own. People aren't going get up in arms over him, but he's fucking boring and no one plays him. Even I don't, and I love playing supports.

ProzzakFeb 1, 20186 votes

I will say it then. I love playing against his champs. They offer unique fighting experiences that differ from the other 100 plus champions in the game. They keep me on my toes and focused (forcing me to play better) than against some boring lane that normally occurs. I have said this for years. People just don't like to play against the unique styles he creates because they are so unique.

One thing though that probably helps me for playing vs them is that I rarely try to force fights (unlike a ton of leagues population). Playing vs his champs usually mean playing off of the other persons over aggression. People prefer to be the one dictating the fights usually which is what gets them in trouble vs his champs.

SkorchFeb 1, 20182 votes

Honestly I agree, Ill much take fighting a Yasuo or hell, even a Zoe. Then someone like Ornn: "Hey you got ganked and fell behind, I'll literally beat you to death with stats."

HópeFeb 1, 20186 votes

No seriously, one good rework does not justify him being''relegated to VGUs only''

This guy needs a break from everything for like 2 weeks and see how OTHER people develop champions, His whole style is flawed, fun champions yes ( my favorite champion is Zyra ) But anti-fun champions.

People saying him having a successful Warwick is the best thing ever yeah its true, WW is 100% fair IMO, but this was only ONE. And hes specifically said he didnt enjoy doing reworks only new champions. I do not want him making new champions or anything i want him to see where his faults are.

chipndip1Feb 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No seriously, one good rework does not justify him being''relegated to VGUs only''

This guy needs a break from everything for like 2 weeks and see how OTHER people develop champions, His whole style is flawed, fun champions yes ( my favorite champion is Zyra ) But anti-fun champions.

People saying him having a successful Warwick is the best thing ever yeah its true, WW is 100% fair IMO, but this was only ONE. And hes specifically said he didnt enjoy doing reworks only new champions. I do not want him making new champions or anything i want him to see where his faults are.

Here's my issue with these boards:

CT has made A LOT of people's favorite champs. His champs have the strongest dedicated player bases in the game, yet people will still rage and complain and call for him to be put on a tight leash, be relegated to "VGUs only", or even to be straight fired, even though he's proven time and time again to make the most fun champs in the game for people that use his champs. That's kind of a dick move, low-key. It's like coming to my party, getting three helpings of my food, and then telling me it's shit and Katy in the corner with the dude in the ripped jeans makes a better plate of wild rice. Like, the fuck is the guy eating three full plates of my food telling me about how bad it is?

IfnethFeb 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Here's my issue with these boards:

CT has made A LOT of people's favorite champs. His champs have the strongest dedicated player bases in the game, yet people will still rage and complain and call for him to be put on a tight leash, be relegated to "VGUs only", or even to be straight fired, even though he's proven time and time again to make the most fun champs in the game for people that use his champs. That's kind of a dick move, low-key. It's like coming to my party, getting three helpings of my food, and then telling me it's shit and Katy in the corner with the dude in the ripped jeans makes a better plate of wild rice. Like, the fuck is the guy eating three full plates of my food telling me about how bad it is?

Let me address this. There are certain ‘things’ that can make a champion really fun to play, especially for certain people, because they give ‘unfair’ advantages. The perception is that CertainlyT’s champions have these things in spades, whether they were meant to or not.

Let’s use Yasuo for example. His fantasy is being a swordsman who has mastered the wind. He’s supposed to dash past or even through his enemies while protecting himself with the wind. This sounds great. Players even discovered he worked great against immobile, squishy mages midlane, since his kit offered both protection from their projectiles, waveclear, and an all-in. The problem is that it completely denies the mage their fantasy.

And that’s the dirty secret of Yasuo. Like with Teemo, part of why his players love him is that he can make his opponents helpless. He can ‘outplay’ a Syndra ultimate by pressing W. He can ‘sidestep’ a Lux binding by pressing E. If a tornado hits after level 6, then he can just press R for an instant gap-closer and lots of damage while his opponent can’t do anything.

The skill involved in playing him is beside the point that these abilities awful for mages to play against. A mage is gated by mana. Yasuo isn’t, and so he can always push the wave under their turret whenever they back, denying them minions even if they pushed it under his turret first. A mage relies on skill-shots. Yasuo can just dash away from them, and even if they land, he has a shield and usually buys a Doran’s Blade to sustain himself. Lots of mages have projectile ultimates that make or break their laning. Yasuo can just windwall them. Mages are supposed to protect themselves with crowd control, but Yasuo can blink from extreme range. Much of what a mage does, Yasuo just... negates.

However fun Yasuo is to play, and however crucial or iconic those abilities are to him, the enjoyment his players get from playing him is just not worth the suffering they bring to his spell-casting opponents. Imagine if every champion were designed to make their opponents helpless. The game would be no fun.

deadlychuckJan 31, 20184 votes

He's got to be restrained by designs which he needs to leave familiar.

That said, i think even with the WW rework, there's an overloading issue with the amount of extra mechanics which got slapped onto the champion without other mechanics being removed or toned down. They removed like 2 advantageous mechanics but added like 4.

xelakerFeb 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Because seldom do I hear someone speak of how much they enjoy playing against his champ designs. But the Warwick rework was arguably the best VGU we've had yet.

While true, his track record would make me reluctant to put him on much of anything. Maybe run his ideas past others first lol

AmazoXFeb 1, 20182 votes

CT obviously is very creative, although a bit of restrain on his creativity is the only thing needed, that way he would become the best designer on the team, Warwick's rework was certainly excellent.

Pika FoxFeb 1, 20182 votes

People like playing the champions he makes.

Also people generally dont complain much about Thresh Zyra and Kallista. Kallista is only broken at high level play or with a smurf, so she would never be a popular complaint. Same with thresh. Zyra really only had a couple moments of complaint.

Other than that, Yas is an ADC and people absolutely hate ADCs in general, and Zoe is an assassin, and as the saying goes, if an assassin is balanced they will always be banned and everyone will rage.

Serika ZeroFeb 1, 20182 votes

Miracles only happen once ;) Prepare yourselves to be raped by Akali with 50% pick/ban ratio with unlimited dashes which make her invisible (think yasuo's E + akali W combined) With her Q becoming a skill shot, it now also stuns the target. Oh and that sweet E is now a cone skill shot, but also procs her Q for MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF TRUE DAMAGE!!!! And targets that walk over her W will take %max hp true damage when akali fights them on the top of the W shroud.

Enjoy :D

Moonfall SaberFeb 1, 20181 votes

yet Warwick is one of the strongest champions in the game right now sitting at a 53% win rate.

Sightless66Feb 1, 20182 votes

And? It's a simple numbers issue. He was balanced, then the game changed some, and now he's overpowered. Any champion can go from balanced to OP if the game changes around them. However, Warwick's actual balance (the thing CT worked on) is fine. He's a fair champion.

Christ SuperstarFeb 1, 20181 votes

I feel like boards should calm the fuck down about CertainlyT, worst champion he made was Zoe, rest has been "oh-god-kill-me"(pre-balancing) to very well made(post balancing).

Zed geniusFeb 1, 20181 votes

Urgot Gangplank RekSai XinZhao just a few that were a better rework

Troll for TrumpFeb 2, 20181 votes

Because they had to have the team reigning CT in...

lolipopevelynnFeb 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because seldom do I hear someone speak of how much they enjoy playing against his champ designs. But the Warwick rework was arguably the best VGU we've had yet.

Years ago on the old white boards people praised CT champs. Player's couldn't wait dor the next ct champ. Then yasuo happened. Bad taste still in everyone's mouth.