@Meddler Please do not remove pre-minion spawn phase.

EinarUlfar·May 4, 2018·162 votes·21,400 views

It's a great time for tabbing & making an analysis of the enemy team and their setup as well as your lane matchup if you had to tend to something between Champion Pick in Lobby and Spawning in.

It also FEELS GOOD (notice how that's an important aspect of the game to us players) to know you have the option to set up an early ward or funnel your team into the enemy jungle for an invade.

This was meant to be a strategy game, not a FPS, quiet windows of opportunity (even if only utilized for something cerebral) are appreciated.

Edit: Link and text for context. https://www.surrenderat20.net/2018/05/red-post-collection-quick-gameplay_4.html

"**Is pre-minion spawn phase worth the time it consumes? **

Something we've been talking a bit about lately is whether or not the phase when the spawning platform barrier is down, but minions haven't yet spawned, is worth the time (about a minute) it consumes. On one hand it can sometimes lead to cool invade, warding or counter jungle play. On the other hand most of the time it just results in people placing a ward or two and then alt-tabbing, spamming /dance etc.

Been wondering as a result whether we'd be better off removing that phase and getting the game going faster, given it's so often a break in game flow right now. Would need to make a number of adjustments to compensate of course to things like trinket timings, champions who need set up time at camps, effects that support invading/counterjungling (so that's still able to happen in some form) etc. If we were to do so it's not something that would happen until preseason and it's still in the category of something we're thinking about, not something we're committed to doing. Would love to hear your thoughts on the concept."

106 Comments

Alevity XiakuMay 4, 201859 votes

This would suck if you had a person who comes in late into the game cuz of their internet. 1 minute isn't killing anyone and games don't need to be shorter.

BattalionMay 4, 201820 votes

I use that 1 minute to strategize. I like to see how my team is lining up and more importantly who isn't lining up. Someone who isn't in position within that 1 minute mark along the jungle entrances is likely going to be a weak link and I will try to avoid ganking them since their jungle awareness/care for jungle control is weak. It lets me get in the zone and lets me prioritize objectives.

TequilaZombieMay 4, 201837 votes

I see no reason to remove it right now. It consumes a minute and a half, but at least half of that is used for scouting, positioning in lane for pre-minion agression, and offers the chance for ambushes to be made. No matter how unlikely those scenarios might be, the complete removal of them because "We want shorter games!" is a pretty bad decision.

MagearnaMay 4, 20185 votes

Agreed. If they want to shorten it, I'd say only 25 seconds should be removed at the most. But there's no real reason to shorten this "pre scouting/planning" time. And like others said, people who have crappy connections would only be screwed over by this

IRFodderMay 4, 201812 votes

{quoted}

I see no reason to remove it right now. It consumes a minute and a half, but at least half of that is used for scouting, positioning in lane for pre-minion agression, and offers the chance for ambushes to be made. No matter how unlikely those scenarios might be, the complete removal of them because "We want shorter games!" is a pretty bad decision.

Agreed, it would remove start game tention, teamplay, and the emote spam if we spot each other before we get into possitions, which is always fun.

RookPusherMay 4, 201828 votes

I think it's a long intro, but at 0 would be bad. Give me 30 seconds. There are a lot of bad connections.

DeusVultMay 4, 201821 votes

30 seconds is too short for teams to do anything. The amount of time atm is fine because you can set up invades, counter-invades, poke about for vision and early deep wards to determine enemy jungler pathing, etc.

Take that out of the game and you remove a ton of early game strategy

MorticianjohnMay 5, 20181 votes

30 seconds might be too short but 1:30 is too long

2Charmnot2CharmMay 5, 20185 votes

You clearly never invaded before.

Dead flag bluesMay 4, 201824 votes

You mean they want minions to spawn at 00:00 ?

EinarUlfarMay 4, 201829 votes

Effectively, yes. ):

Guyy FieriMay 4, 20185 votes

Proof? Sounds like a bunch of wild speculation to me

EinarUlfarMay 4, 201816 votes

Updated the post with the proof.

CppLMay 4, 201840 votes

{quoted}

Effectively, yes. ):

So players with slower pc or internet are fucked...?

XurrealMay 4, 201822 votes

Also, I appreciate being able to look at both Allied and Enemy Keystones and runes before any fighting is done so that I might better plan out a strategy for getting things going. As a Jungle main, this is important for me, especially Evelynn vs a-certain-nullifying-ring.

rtbf225618241May 4, 201817 votes

This is not Call of Duty. It is a common consensus that when you start up a SR League game, you should have 60 minutes available to commit to the game. I don't know why they keep pulling out their "It takes tooo looong to staart!!" idea because it was only a minor issue when the new champ select arrived with the new drafting system.

Having people only fight like retards all game eliminates even the small 2 minutes of team bonding some people can achieve by using emotes and interacting with each other. It also removes any margin for error in starting a game as you have to be literally glued to your computer to not miss a beat. People with hardware problems or internet issues are going to suffer the most if this goes through.

I don't know who came up with this idea, it's one of the dumbest i've heard of over all these years but i would not take that person seriously after this.

makkiiMay 4, 201814 votes

I use it to finish pooping, riot pls

Sassmast3rMay 4, 201812 votes

00:00 would be ridiculous, I would have no time to consider which starter items I would like to take based on matchup or which ability, nor would I be able to even look sideways before the minions have already reached the second turret.

ShadybugMay 5, 201810 votes

Pre-minion spawn shenanigans are part of the fun of League. And I feel like if I’ve already decided to commit 60mins or more of my life to a game, I can spare another minute and change.

The Taco KatMay 5, 201810 votes

I don't think that they realize this is also a minor nerf to Gathering Storm. That, or they do, and just want to shorten games even more.

I miss the games that had excitement building up, tension in fights, and when comebacks weren't just one or two fights won, not the hopelessness of the snowball-fest that is League today.

soopcanMay 5, 201810 votes

I like it cause it allows people a window of time to reconnect if they get bugsplatted as soon as the game loads in.

LightIsMyPathMay 4, 20189 votes

Wow they are really desperate to slow game time even more. This.. Sucks

Az Lusheni AzMay 5, 20187 votes

Relying on Meddler for anything is like pouring water into a basket. All he knows how to do is ruin champions or worsen the state of the game. Ask another rioter for help.

ZioviMay 5, 20187 votes

Honestly speaking, i enjoy that minute of time we can use to invade, discuss about our match ups and how can we help each other, or whatever. I also remember at some point i had some kind a problem with the client and the game would crash at the loading screen so i had to reconnect, and i would at least manage to be back within 1:00, which means it didn't affect my games...

I don't see how much better would people feel about finish the game 1 minute (WOW) earlier. They also say it's "a break in game flow", but i disagree. At that point no flow whatsoever is started yet, so it really isn't a break of any kind.

I can speak only for myself, but i strongly oppose removing that 1 minute.

TwitchInMyPantsMay 5, 20187 votes

This is one of those changes that could actually ruin the game

Making it harder to leash for jungler, removing lv1 fights/invades entirely, and people missing XP just because Riot got bored and tweaked the game will just ruin tons of games. The pre minion spawn has been a feature of every moba for years for a variety of reasons, ITS A GOOD IDEA. It helps your team group, it enables an early fight, and if there's connection issues or someone spending time in shop it gives them some time before they can leave.

The Yetii RiderMay 5, 20186 votes

As a jungler, I would like my laners to have time to leash me, please.

Riot: We're really excited for people to try jungle Karthus with the new Runic Echoes! Plus we changed Morgana and Zyra to jungle a while back

Also Riot- Fuck ranged junglers, you have to tank first buff by yourself now.

Risen29May 4, 20184 votes

It's a waste of time. I would rather jump right into the game and save an extra minute of my life. People only afk in fountain because they have grown use to being able to do it. You've got plenty of time before the game loads to consider you opposition.

If you played 1000 games then you'd have wasted a whole day, over 16 hours, waiting for minions to spawn.

ankoanko19May 4, 20185 votes

{quoted}

It's a waste of time. I would rather jump right into the game and save an extra minute of my life. People only afk in fountain because they have grown use to being able to do it. You've got plenty of time before the game loads to consider you opposition.

If you played 1000 games then you'd have wasted a whole day, over 16 hours, waiting for minions to spawn.

But it doesnt have to spawn at 0:00. Shorten the time but not to the extent of fucking over everyone that doesnt have the latest high tech pc.

Risen29May 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

But it doesnt have to spawn at 0:00. Shorten the time but not to the extent of fucking over everyone that doesnt have the latest high tech pc.

The game doesn't start until everyone has reached 100% loading. You have no excuse. I have a very old and poor PC at the moment and I don't arrive in game any later than anyone else.

KnickusafMay 4, 20184 votes

Unless you crash, disconnect, or encounter some other kind of bug while loading and have to restart, in which time the game will consider you as not loading and start the game without you.

It happens to me quite a bit since I've moved to this apartment, something wrong with the wifi, and I'd lose a lot more games if I didn't have that grace period to reconnect.

Risen29May 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Unless you crash, disconnect, or encounter some other kind of bug while loading and have to restart, in which time the game will consider you as not loading and start the game without you.

You can't rob people of 1:30 minutes at the start of every game on the off chance that occasionally, rarely, someone will crash or disconnect during that time.

People can crash or disconnect at any time during the game, but we don't pause the game while we wait for them to come back. We just deal with that as an accepted risk of playing the game.

It's not common enough that we need to warp the game design around trying to minimize it's impact.

It might be common for you personally, but I have encountered teammates only a handful of times in a thousand games who legitimately disconnected while trying to load. I'd rather have that extra 1 minute back from those thousand games, because that would add up to 16.6 hours.

KnickusafMay 4, 20186 votes

Imagine all the time you could have saved if you weren't playing League! Dealing with the fact that your time is being wasted is also an accepted consequence of playing the game.

Keeping a feature that's been in the game since the beginning (that has this one edge benefit), around which numerous game systems are balanced and designed for with it in mind =/= "warping the game design". You may as well try to argue that someone asking for Flash to not be removed is demanding to "warp the game design". In the first place, it's farcical to suggest anyone asking for something to stay the same is demanding to "warp the game design".

The real question you should be asking is if your desire to save a minute and a half per game is worth "warping the game design".

Risen29May 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Imagine all the time you could have saved if you weren't playing League! Dealing with the fact that your time is being wasted is also an accepted consequence of playing the game.

No, it isn't. Any well designed game aims to cut the fat and take out dead time. That's why they try to streamline the matchmaking and champion select process, and give us a surrender option.

Riot, and the players, all agree that saving time with a surrender option is worth the possibility that we may occasionally lose a game we could have won because our teammates threw in the towel prematurely.

The real question you should be asking is if your desire to save a minute and a half per game is worth "warping the game design".

Logic failure. There is no game in the dead time at the start of the match. So there's no game design to warp. That's entirely the point of why it should be removed. The 0.001% of times that the pregame time has any meaningful gameplay take place during it is not worth all the wasted time every other time.

KnickusafMay 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No, it isn't. Any well designed game aims to cut the fat and take out dead time. That's why they try to streamline the matchmaking and champion select process, and give us a surrender option.

It's only dead time if you fail to use it for anything.

Logic failure. There is no game in the dead time at the start of the match. So there's no game design to warp. That's entirely the point of why it should be removed. The 0.001% of times that the pregame time has any meaningful gameplay take place during it is not worth all the wasted time every other time.

Again, it's only dead time if you want it to be. Frankly, if only 0.001% of your games has anything interesting happen before minions spawn, you and your teams are probably doing something wrong.

Risen29May 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's only dead time if you fail to use it for anything.

You fail to understand why 99.9% of the time it never is used for anything.

There's nothing to fight over. You can't force a fight on the enemy team if there is nothing for you to threaten. They might decide to fight you out of boredom, but it has no strategic value to the game at all.

Which is why 99.9% of the time nothing ever happens during that time. Because the only time a kill happens is because both sides decided to commit to a team fight that wasn't necessary in the hopes of getting an early cheese first blood. But you don't need pre-minion time to cheese for a first blood as a team. You can still try to invade as a team to cheese the enemy jungler if you want to. And then he'll actually be forced to fight or back because there's something at stake. Right now, there's nothing at stake, so there's no real reason to ever die during the pre-game time.

KnickusafMay 5, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You fail to understand why 99.9% of the time it never is used for anything.

There's nothing to fight over. You can't force a fight the enemy doesn't want to have during that time. They might decide to fight you out of boredom, but it has no strategic value to the game at all.

Which is why 99.9% of the time it never has any meaning to the game.

Again, if 99.9% of your games has nothing happen before minions spawn, it's probably because you and your teams are doing something wrong. I see invades happen almost every other game, and even if they often don't result in any kills or summoners, even just leaving wards behind is meaningful to gameplay by gaining knowledge of the enemy jungler's starting location, path, and timing. Even if you do none of that, if you use the time to assess your situation, win conditions, and game plan, it's time of value.

In the first place, your fallacy is thinking that only fighting has value.

Risen29May 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Again, if 99.9% of your games has nothing happen before minions spawn, it's probably because you and your teams are doing something wrong.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion. Merely restating your claim doesn't make it true.

I pointed out the logical reasons why nothing happens during the early game, and you didn't logically refute any of it. You merely repeated your claim that the players are at fault without offering any reasoned argumentation as to why.

I see invades happen almost every other game,

Riot tells us themselves that nothing is happening during this time.

And seeing people try to invade is different from anything actually being accomplished by them. You can try to invade all you want, it doesn't mean you'll accomplish anything of value when the enemy doesn't actually need to fight you.

In the first place, your fallacy is thinking that only fighting has value.

Logical fallacy, strawman. I never said fighting by itself had value. You're the one that is claiming fighting over nothing in the pregame has value.

There is no value to fighting in the pregame other than to try to get a cheese first blood, but this only works if the enemy team is willing to commit to also trying to get a cheese first blood. Otherwise it's way too easy to disengage and never fight in the pregame because there's nothing at stake.

First bloods aren't happening during that time for any reason other than the fact that the players want to spin the roulette wheel and see if they can win the cheese. It only works if both sides want to play the game. If one side opts out you'll never even get to fight for it.

Which is why in 99.9% of games, nothing is is happening.

even just leaving wards behind is meaningful to gameplay by gaining knowledge of the enemy jungler's starting location, path, and timing.

You can still invade to place wards if they are that important to you. You'll miss a few seconds of lane time, but that's the trade off for having deep vision.

Pre-minion placement of vision is not that important to the game that we need to keep all this dead time around just for it. The same vision placement can still happen if it's deemed important, rather than just something you do because you have nothing else better to do.

KnickusafMay 5, 20184 votes

Oh yes, in contrast to all the prove you've provided for the statistic that 99.9% of the time, nothing happens before minions spawn... or was it 99.999% of the time? Which of those baseless assertions pulled out of your ass would you like to provide evidence for? Don't throw stones in glass houses.

We may not know the exact distribution of first bloods in the game, but we do know that the average first blood time in league is 3 minutes 18 seconds. , which obviously suggests that a significant number of first bloods have to occur well under that figure. Given the average first blood timing it's statistically improbable that the number of pre-spawn first bloods is that low; i.e. for 99.9% of first bloods occur after minions spawn would require a standard deviation of 47 seconds, which would suggest that in near 100% of games, first blood has occurred 4 minutes into the game. The precise distribution is likely not a normal curve because there is much more time in the game after 3:18 than before it, but that only makes it more likely that there are a significant number of very early first bloods since the game length time would tend to move the average higher. Ergo, it is likely that a significant number of first bloods occur before minions spawn.

You can't call an argument a strawman then immediately affirm that it is your position. I didn't say anything about fighting itself having value, I said that you claim is that fighting is the only action you can take in the pregame that has value, which you indeed just affirmed, as asserting that "fighting to cheese a first blood" is the only thing that has value is indeed also claiming that the only thing of value in the pregame is fighting.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion.

Logical fallacy, argument by fallacy.

Pre-minion placement of vision is not that important to the game that we need to keep all this dead time around just for it.

Who's strawmanning now? As if the placement of vision were the only thing I had listed as something that can be done before minions spawn.

Junglers don't need leashes to jungle.

A lot of junglers need leashes to jungle well, especially if they want to gank before the first recall. This is also an indirect buff to early-invading junglers as defensive junglers will be lower on health. Not to mention that certain junglers like Shaco would have their early clears completely gutted by the change. Level 2 ganks in general would be no longer viable.

All of these things are gameplay changes that would need to be rebalanced, up to and including likely making some champions non-viable, yet you hilariously assert that there are no gameplay consequences to changing the spawn time.

Let's look on the flip side. What would all of this gain? 16.6 hours over 1000 games? Let's assume that you would be using that time to play League. That'd translate to maybe 20-30 more games. Would playing 1030 games instead of 1000 games allow you to climb out of silver? Would it increase the amount of money you spend on the game? Would it increase the amount of time you spend on the game?

If anything, the gains from this change are what are not important.

KilanostMay 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No, it isn't. Any well designed game aims to cut the fat and take out dead time. That's why they try to streamline the matchmaking and champion select process, and give us a surrender option.

Riot, and the players, all agree that saving time with a surrender option is worth the possibility that we may occasionally lose a game we could have won because our teammates threw in the towel prematurely.

Logic failure. There is no game in the dead time at the start of the match. So there's no game design to warp. That's entirely the point of why it should be removed. The 0.001% of times that the pregame time has any meaningful gameplay take place during it is not worth all the wasted time every other time.

Jungler says, "leash pls"

ankoanko19May 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You can't rob people of 1:30 minutes at the start of every game on the off chance that occasionally, rarely, someone will crash or disconnect during that time.

People can crash or disconnect at any time during the game, but we don't pause the game while we wait for them to come back. We just deal with that as an accepted risk of playing the game.

It's not common enough that we need to warp the game design around trying to minimize it's impact.

It might be common for you personally, but I have encountered teammates only a handful of times in a thousand games who legitimately disconnected while trying to load. I'd rather have that extra 1 minute back from those thousand games, because that would add up to 16.6 hours.

You seriously have to have hardcore impatience if you think something as much as 1s is too much. You wouldnt be able to counter jungle in the early game since with the instant minion spawn you wouldnt be able to get to the enemy teams camps quick enough. Again, some people start the game with 150 ping and then it gets gradually lower. Like I said not EVERYBODY plays on a high tech computer or are connected to an ethernet for that matter.

Risen29May 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You seriously have to have hardcore impatience if you think something as much as 1s is too much.

You don't need 1 second. You aren't asking for 1 second. And 1 second won't do anything for you.

You wouldnt be able to counter jungle in the early game since with the instant minion spawn you wouldnt be able to get to the enemy teams camps quick enough.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion. You're merely repeating what you already said, even though I already disproved your point with my response.

As I already said, you don't even know what counter jungling is if you would say that. Counter jungling is something you do throughout the game, not just before minions spawn. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from stealing enemy camps early when the pre-game time is removed.

Again, some people start the game with 150 ping and then it gets gradually lower. Like I said not EVERYBODY plays on a high tech computer or are connected to an ethernet for that matter.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion. You're merely repeating what you've already said without offering any new argumentation to support your position.

I play on a dell PoS that is like 8 years old and barely runs the game at low settings because my main computer is down right now. I have no issues with loading the game. As I already said, we don't warp the game design around the occasional rare person who has technical troubles. We don't pause the game when they disconnect in the middle of the game. We don't need to stall every single game for a minute just to provide a buffer in case someone does have problems during that time. They could have problems at any time during the match. Why stop at 1 minute? Why not make everyone wait 5 minutes before the match starts to be really sure no one ever gets caught out? Because it's a giant waste of time for an exceptionally marginal circumstance. It's unnecessary for 99.999% of the average person's games.

ankoanko19May 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You don't need 1 second. You aren't asking for 1 second. And 1 second won't do anything for you.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion. You're merely repeating what you already said, even though I already disproved your point with my response.

As I already said, you don't even know what counter jungling is if you would say that. Counter jungling is something you do throughout the game, not just before minions spawn. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from stealing enemy camps early when the pre-game time is removed.

Logical fallacy, argument by assertion. You're merely repeating what you've already said without offering any new argumentation to support your position.

I play on a dell PoS that is like 8 years old and barely runs the game at low settings because my main computer is down right now. I have no issues with loading the game. As I already said, we don't warp the game design around the occasional rare person who has technical troubles. We don't pause the game when they disconnect in the middle of the game. We don't need to stall every single game for a minute just to provide a buffer in case someone does have problems during that time. They could have problems at any time during the match. Why stop at 1 minute? Why not make everyone wait 5 minutes before the match starts to be really sure no one ever gets caught out? Because it's a giant waste of time for an exceptionally marginal circumstance. It's unnecessary for 99.999% of the average person's games.

I'm not always ready instantly even after the loadup. I might be going to the toilet quickly, my computer might have some issues that can be sorted out during those 30s or I buy the wrong starting items, shit happens you need to get prepared but not instantly. Also you're playing on a stationary computer that is most likely connected to an ethernet, just proving my point. My ping usually spikes high when I play on wifi and then it gets lower by time. Also yes you wouldn't be able to counterjungle EarlyearlyEarlyearlyEarly for fucks sake how many times do I have to repeat this? Champions like Ivern wouldnt have enough time to get to the enemy camps instantly.. unless you want the jungle to spawn later on which in that case why does it matter if the minions spawn instantly? The game would be unfun for a lot of players that usually play on wifi if you made the minions spawn instantly because they'd be behind. I agree that maybe 1 min is a bit much but still it's not extreme and you're able to check the persons keystone and find out a strategy during that time. With your PC you most likely load up a lot slower and in that case you already find yourself a strategy during the loading screen and again: that doesn't happen every game to everyone. Hell, even royal games like Fortnite have a waiting time.

Risen29May 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm not always ready instantly even after the loadup. I might be going to the toilet quickly,

You'll just learn to be ready when it changes. You're only not ready because you know you have a whole minute to fart around doing nothing before the game starts.

or I buy the wrong starting items,

That extra second it takes you to click sell and rebuy isn't going to break the game for you.

Learn to click more accurately next time.

This is all just weak grasping at straws. There's no legitimate need for all this downtime at the start.

my computer might have some issues that can be sorted out during those 30s

might? You might have a lightning strike your computer, but we're not going to pause the game for 10 minutes when you disconnect and then remake the game.

There's no point in wasting everyone else's time for the ultra rare occasion that someone has a crash at loading screen. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had someone not make it into the game and then reconnect before the game starts in a thousand games.

It's not significant enough to waste time in every game over.

Also yes you wouldn't be able to counterjungle EarlyearlyEarlyearlyEarly for fucks sake how many times do I have to repeat this?

Maybe until you understand the significance of what "counterjungling" means. You don't need a pregame time in order to counter jungle.

Champions like Ivern wouldnt have enough time to get to the enemy camps instantly..

Logical failure. All champions are equally effects by having to travel to the camps that are already up, and not being able to instantly start attacking them.

Ivern will actually have more of an advantage once he gets there, because he never benefited from leashing. So now he has a legitimate early game jungling advantage, which he should considering how crap he is right now.

I agree that maybe 1 min is a bit much

Where's the cut off? Maybe you only want 30 seconds, but maybe someone else wants a minute. maybe someone else would prefer 3 minutes because they freeze up often and they need more time to restart their computer and load up the game. There's no standard.

If you have computer issues then your computer issue should be addressed directly. Warping the game around the 0.001% of people who have this problem is bad design, giving dead time to everyone each game. And no matter how much you give, there's always going to be that one person who needed more time.

The game would be unfun for a lot of players that usually play on wifi if you made the minions spawn instantly because they'd be behind.

Everything else you've posted is just weak grasping at straws in a vain attempt to justify the pregame time, which is pointless and unnecessary.

Stop trying to pretend that you have real legitimate game reasons for wanting the pregame time when your only real reason for wanting it is because your computer doesn't function well.

And I've already addressed why that is not a valid reason to keep the pregame time, so you can scroll up and read it.

Hell, even royal games like Fortnite have a waiting time.

Logical fallacy. Bandwagon.

Just because another game does something doesn't mean it's good for LoL.

ankoanko19May 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You'll just learn to be ready when it changes. You're only not ready because you know you have a whole minute to fart around doing nothing before the game starts.

That extra second it takes you to click sell and rebuy isn't going to break the game for you.

Learn to click more accurately next time.

This is all just weak grasping at straws. There's no legitimate need for all this downtime at the start.

might? You might have a lightning strike your computer, but we're not going to pause the game for 10 minutes when you disconnect and then remake the game.

There's no point in wasting everyone else's time for the ultra rare occasion that someone has a crash at loading screen. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had someone not make it into the game and then reconnect before the game starts in a thousand games.

It's not significant enough to waste time in every game over.

Maybe until you understand the significance of what "counterjungling" means. You don't need a pregame time in order to counter jungle.

Logical failure. All champions are equally effects by having to travel to the camps that are already up, and not being able to instantly start attacking them.

Ivern will actually have more of an advantage once he gets there, because he never benefited from leashing. So now he has a legitimate early game jungling advantage, which he should considering how crap he is right now.

Where's the cut off? Maybe you only want 30 seconds, but maybe someone else wants a minute. maybe someone else would prefer 3 minutes because they freeze up often and they need more time to restart their computer and load up the game. There's no standard.

If you have computer issues then your computer issue should be addressed directly. Warping the game around the 0.001% of people who have this problem is bad design, giving dead time to everyone each game. And no matter how much you give, there's always going to be that one person who needed more time.

Everything else you've posted is just weak grasping at straws in a vain attempt to justify the pregame time, which is pointless and unnecessary.

Stop trying to pretend that you have real legitimate game reasons for wanting the pregame time when your only real reason for wanting it is because your computer doesn't function well.

And I've already addressed why that is not a valid reason to keep the pregame time, so you can scroll up and read it.

Logical fallacy. Bandwagon.

Just because another game does something doesn't mean it's good for LoL.

Logical fallacies!!! Logical fallacies!! Strawman! You know damn well that when I say ''might'' I mean that it happens frequently to a lot of players. Is it 0.001% Where is the source for that? Because I guess I'm very unlucky considering that it has happened a lot of times. Now, you and me are fortunate enough to live in countries with fast internet. However as someone that plays in EU, people that live in countries like Italy, France, Spain, Serbia, Albania, Macedonia, Estonia etc all have naturally a slower internet speed. You also didnt answer whether or not the jungle should spawn instantly. I didnt say I wanted 30s but I want whats best for everyone. Hell if it means that the spawn time is going to get increased then so be it. Maybe 1 minute is the perfect time, I'm fine with that. ''Just because another game does something it doesnt mean its good for LoL bandwagon'' Good job missusing the bandwagon fallacy, wouldnt that make it so that you just commited a fallacy fallacy? We're not talking about something like smartphones where ''X is the best because its the most popular'' or whatever but the fact that almost all games do this indicates that it is generally considered to be better to have the increased spawn time than not having it at all. I wanna get prepared all games and not just the ones where someone has a slow pc so I can build up a strategy in the loading screen. If Riot had a poll of whether or not to remove the spawn time, you know yourself that most people would be fine with keeping it.

Risen29May 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Logical fallacies!!! Logical fallacies!! Strawman! You know damn well that when I say ''might'' I mean that it happens frequently to a lot of players.

Logical fallacy, incorrectly accusing someone of a logical fallacy.

I took your words at face value. You took the illogical step of using wrong words and expecting others to be mind readers in deciphering your statement.

Is it 0.001% Where is the source for that? Because I guess I'm very unlucky considering that it has happened a lot of times.

You have to define what you are talking about first. If your biggest problem is that you get 100 more ping for a few seconds after you spawn in, then the impact on the game is absolutely nil. Just walk it out to lane and you'll probably be fine by the time actual combat starts.

If you're talking about crashing at load screen and having to reload the game before minions spawn - well, I can tell you that's so rare it's not even worth having a buffer time in game for it. It has happened only a handful of times in a thousand games.

You also didnt answer whether or not the jungle should spawn instantly.

Because it was an irrelevant question. Establish it's relevance first.

I didnt say I wanted 30s but I want whats best for everyone.

Then you don't even know what you want. And you can't argue for something if you don't even know precisely what you are advocating for.

It's impossible to please everyone. The best you can do is what is best for 99.9% of the players, the ones who don't have issues, by removing the pointless downtime.

Good job missusing the bandwagon fallacy,

I correctly used that term. You must not know what a bandwagon fallacy is.

Bandwagon is a fallacy based on the assumption that the opinion of the majority is always valid: that is, everyone believes it, so you should too. It is also called appeal to popularity, authority of the many, and argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people").

Pointing to other games and saying they do it doesn't logically prove your point of whether it's a good or necessary thing for LoL. It's a fallacious appeal to what you think the majority is doing. But truth is never logically established by what the majority are doing.

wouldnt that make it so that you just commited a fallacy fallacy?

Logical fallacy, incorrectly accusing someone of committing a logical fallacy.

You don't understand what a "Fallacy Fallacy" is.

If I were to take your one bandwagon fallacy statement, only respond to that, and then declare everything else you posted invalid because of that one bad point, then that would be an example of argument by fallacy.

I didn't do that. I only dismissed that one point because it was a logical fallacy (which is precisely what you are suppose to do in the process of logical debate), and then dealt with everything else on it's own merits (what little merits they had).

whatever but the fact that almost all games do this indicates that it is generally considered to be better to have the increased spawn time than not having it at all.

Logical fallacy. Bandwagon.

Pointing to other games that do this does not prove the necessity or merit of it being in LoL.

ankoanko19May 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Logical fallacy, incorrectly accusing someone of a logical fallacy.

I took your words at face value. You took the illogical step of using wrong words and expecting others to be mind readers in deciphering your statement. Because I guess I'm very unlucky considering that it has happened a lot of times.

You have to define what you are talking about first. If your biggest problem is that you get 100 more ping for a few seconds after you spawn in, then the impact on the game is absolutely nil. Just walk it out to lane and you'll probably be fine by the time actual combat starts.

If you're talking about crashing at load screen and having to reload the game before minions spawn - well, I can tell you that's so rare it's not even worth having a buffer time in game for it. It has happened only a handful of times in a thousand games.

Because it was an irrelevant question. Establish it's relevance first.

Then you don't even know what you want. And you can't argue for something if you don't even know precisely what you are advocating for.

It's impossible to please everyone. The best you can do is what is best for 99.9% of the players, the ones who don't have issues, by removing the pointless downtime.

I correctly used that term. You must not know what a bandwagon fallacy is.

Bandwagon is a fallacy based on the assumption that the opinion of the majority is always valid: that is, everyone believes it, so you should too. It is also called appeal to popularity, authority of the many, and argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people").

Pointing to other games and saying they do it doesn't logically prove your point of whether it's a good or necessary thing for LoL. It's a fallacious appeal to what you think the majority is doing. But truth is never logically established by what the majority are doing.

Logical fallacy, incorrectly accusing someone of committing a logical fallacy.

You don't understand what a "Fallacy Fallacy" is.

If I were to take your one bandwagon fallacy statement, only respond to that, and then declare everything else you posted invalid because of that one bad point, then that would be an example of argument by fallacy.

I didn't do that. I only dismissed that one point because it was a logical fallacy (which is precisely what you are suppose to do in the process of logical debate), and then dealt with everything else on it's own merits (what little merits they had).

Logical fallacy. Bandwagon.

Pointing to other games that do this does not prove the necessity or merit of it being in LoL.

Nice job ignoring literally the biggest reason for this. Like I said not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a country or buy internet that is fast. As an American your average internet speed is 14.3. As a Swede mine is 19 but I live in Europe and something right next to us like Estonia has an internet speed of 8. I do want something: I want a minion spawn time. I didnt specify how long I wanted it to be, now did I? Again where is the statistic that 99.99% of players dont have issues????

No that is not how the fallacy fallacy works. First lets address this bandwagon thing: It's not bandwagon if it is common, has always existed and is a necessity. A bandwagon is when someone does something and then everyone else decides to copy it despite it being terrible. Here is a bandwagon thread: the removal of headphone jacks in phones. It's bandwagon because Apple started doing it out of thin air so every other company did too, you see where I'm coming from? But the respawn time in league has ALWAYS existed and it has ALWAYS existed in other games its practically natural at this point and there is no bandwagon thread about it. It's like saying ''Cameras on phones are bandwagon''. The fallacy fallacy states that just because something was poorly written that it has to be a logical fallacy, you've done this multiple times, just stop at this point.

Also ''I took your words at face value. You took the illogical step of using wrong words and expecting others to be mind readers in deciphering your statement. '' This statement contains 2 logical fallacies: The fallacy fallacy (poorly writing something so it has to be wrong, right?) . Ambiguity (There is no mind reading into this, like I said its common so when I said maybe I mean as in it's not one million of a chance to happen like getting thunder struck at you. You know that when I said ''maybe'' I did mean something that is rather common. Or are you not as intelligent as you make yourself out to be by using all of these logical fallacies in your arguments?).

Risen29May 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Nice job ignoring literally the biggest reason for this. Like I said not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a country or buy internet that is fast.

Logical fallacy. Argument by assertion. Merely repeating your argument doesn't make it true. I've already offered logical arguments against it, and you've offered nothing new to counter it.

No that is not how the fallacy fallacy works.

Logical fallacy. Argument by assertion. Merely asserting something doesn't make it true. You offer no argument to prove your belief about what a fallacy fallacy is to be true.

Argument from fallacy is the formal fallacy of analyzing an argument and inferring that, since it contains a fallacy, its conclusion must be false.. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/fallfall.html

I never did that. I only point out why particular arguments you make are invalid. I never tried to claim your use of a logical fallacy makes your conclusion automatically untrue just because you used a fallacy.

First lets address this bandwagon thing: It's not bandwagon if it is common, has always existed and is a necessity. A bandwagon is when someone does something and then everyone else decides to copy it despite it being terrible. ... ? But the respawn time in league has ALWAYS existed and it has ALWAYS existed in other games its practically natural at this point and there is no bandwagon thread about it.

I quoted for you the definition of it, and you still get it wrong. To further demonstrate how willfully ignorant you are, you even commit another bandwagon fallacy trying to prove your original statement wasn't a bandwagon fallacy.

Here's some expanded definition for you. Maybe this will help you understand why you're making a fool of yourself:

Logical Fallacy, Bandwagon: Also known as: •Appeal to Popularity •Argument by Consensus •Argumentum ad Populum •Authority of the Many

Form of argument: Idea X is popular. Therefore, X is correct.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html

That is exactly the form of argument you tried to use. It is a fallacy. Because the popularity of something has nothing to do with whether or not it's true. Or, in this case, something is not right for LoL just because another game does it. You need to be able to logically establish the validity of the feature for LoL on it's merits, not blindly appeal to other games that do it this way.

Also ''I took your words at face value. You took the illogical step of using wrong words and expecting others to be mind readers in deciphering your statement. '' This statement contains 2 logical fallacies: The fallacy fallacy (poorly writing something so it has to be wrong, right?) .

Misuse of a logical fallacy. You don't understand what a Fallacy Fallacy is. See above.

You also committed the logical fallacy of strawman: claiming I said something I never did. I never said your point was wrong because you wrote poorly. I said you can't get mad for responding to your post the way you wrote it. It's not my fault I'm not a mindreader who can understand the hidden intent of your poorly constructed and poorly worded post.

You also never listed a supposed second logical fallacy.

ankoanko19May 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Logical fallacy. Argument by assertion. Merely repeating your argument doesn't make it true. I've already offered logical arguments against it, and you've offered nothing new to counter it.

Logical fallacy. Argument by assertion. Merely asserting something doesn't make it true. You offer no argument to prove your belief about what a fallacy fallacy is to be true.

Argument from fallacy is the formal fallacy of analyzing an argument and inferring that, since it contains a fallacy, its conclusion must be false.. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/fallfall.html

I never did that. I only point out why particular arguments you make are invalid. I never tried to claim your use of a logical fallacy makes your conclusion automatically untrue just because you used a fallacy. ...

I quoted for you the definition of it, and you still get it wrong. To further demonstrate how willfully ignorant you are, you even commit another bandwagon fallacy trying to prove your original statement wasn't a bandwagon fallacy.

Here's some expanded definition for you. Maybe this will help you understand why you're making a fool of yourself:

Logical Fallacy, Bandwagon: Also known as: •Appeal to Popularity •Argument by Consensus •Argumentum ad Populum •Authority of the Many

Form of argument: Idea X is popular. Therefore, X is correct.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html

That is exactly the form of argument you tried to use. It is a fallacy. Because the popularity of something has nothing to do with whether or not it's true. Or, in this case, something is not right for LoL just because another game does it. You need to be able to logically establish the validity of the feature for LoL on it's merits, not blindly appeal to other games that do it this way.

Misuse of a logical fallacy. You don't understand what a Fallacy Fallacy is. See above.

You also committed the logical fallacy of strawman: claiming I said something I never did. I never said your point was wrong because you wrote poorly. I said you can't get mad for responding to your post the way you wrote it. It's not my fault I'm not a mindreader who can understand the hidden intent of your poorly constructed and poorly worded post.

You also never listed a supposed second logical fallacy.

You ignored the statement. But unlike you, I'll actually give you sources that many European countries dont have a fast internet. https://www.fastmetrics.com/internet-connection-speed-by-country.php . Not even Europe, even China or Vietnam have slow internet despite being main players in the LCS and league in general. What are you gonna say now? ''REPEATING SOMETHING DOESNT MAKE IT TRUUU!!!'' I'm repeating it because you're refusing to address the issue. Address it, tell me the source where you found that 99% of people never get a connection issue.

Me: h Risen29: Bandwagon logical fallacy! You only say Hi because its popular and everyone else does it too! This is seriously how your argument about this bandwagon shit goes. Seriously if league had a poll about this stuff most people would vote infavor of keeping the minion spawn time(this post already has 110 likes for example). Majority>Minority, or is it bandwagon to be for democracy too?

Either way you dont seem to understand the bandwagon thing, its only applied if a certain trend occurs and everyone all of a sudden wants to partake in it. But you know what, you've enlightened me. I agree that we should remove the minion spawntime. I also think we should remove the death timers since every other moba game has it, it doesnt serve any other purpose and is just bad because it wastes a lot of my time, it's not my fault that my team fought a bad teamfight and now I have to wait almost a minute to actually play the game. If you disagree with me and say ''No it is good, there is a reason every moba has it'' then you're just following the bandwagon thread!!!!!

3TWarriorMay 5, 20182 votes

how is it "robbing" anyone? Everyone has played the game this way since ALPHA and have had no problems with it

coincidentally, if the map and champion textures were native (a feature they chose to omit for some security reason), load times would be cut quite a bit