Can we revert the 6.9 change: "Turrets are now vulnerable to armor + magic penetration"?

EinarUlfar·Oct 31, 2017·141 votes·4,338 views

Perhaps then they won't be as much of a wet noodle.

106 Comments

EedatOct 31, 201725 votes

Lmao this thread is so misinformed. Do you even know WHY they made that change? Because in the very same patch:

BASE ARMOR 0 ⇒ 40

BASE MAGIC RESISTANCE 0 ⇒ 40

Yeah man giving them armor/MR really made them wet noodles for sure lel. Especially early when nobody even has pen built yet. Taking true damage at all points of the game regardless of build, runes, and masteries was soooooooo much better right?

Automated RivenNov 1, 20173 votes

Pretty sure they used to have 100 armor. And mages didn't deal magic damage to them.

EedatNov 1, 20174 votes

Yeah, when outer turrets had 1000 HP

Automated RivenNov 1, 20171 votes

I dont remember all the details. But didnt inner towers have higher HP then outer? I remember (and I could be wrong) that towers felt harder to take down back in the day. now they fall in like 4 seconds to the team vs back in the day where it seems to me that it simply took longer.

EedatNov 1, 20175 votes

Turrets no longer gain armor or magic resistance over time. Turret armor / magic resistance has been standardized to +100 armor / magic resistance. Turret Reinforced Armor bonuses have been increased to +200 armor / magic resistance. Outer Turrets: 1000~~2000 health. Inner Turrets: 1000~~2000 health. Inhibitor Turrets: 1500~~2500 health. Nexus Turrets: 1500~~2500 health.

PB4UAMENov 1, 20175 votes

LMAO this reply is so misinformed. Do you even know WHY they made that change?

Patch 5.22

After realizing they fucked up towers ever since they removed their resists (used to be 100 flat, with 300 back door armor, for 400 armor and MR if attacked without minions) They added a tenth of their old stats back, and let them be affected by pen.

"Turrets

Lots of numbers below, but the gist is that turrets are more vulnerable on average unless you give them time to scale up. Take down an outer early enough and you'll be able to put meaningful damage on the next (or even take it outright!) before it can fortify if your opponent isn't respecting your demolition power.

Turret mechanics

removed

SHIELDS OFFLINE Inner towers no longer shield nearby players from damage

THIS IS A MAGE BUFF Basic attacks against turrets deal damage equal to base attack damage + either 1.0 bonus attack damage or 0.4 ability power ⇒ 0.5 ability power, whichever is higher

Turret resistances BASE ARMOR AND MAGIC RESIST 100 ⇒ 0

new

WE CAN REBUILD Turrets gain 2 armor and magic resist per minute, up to a maximum of 30. Outer towers begin scaling at game-start, Inner towers at 15 minutes, Inhibitor & Nexus towers at 30 minutes.

REINFORCED ARMOR Turrets gain 300 ⇒ 200 armor and magic resist if no minions are nearby"

EedatNov 1, 20174 votes

Oh look, yet another guy excluding other critical information. Lets look at the others changes in that very same patch:

OUTER TOWER HEALTH 2000 ⇒ 3500 INNER TOWER HEALTH 2500 ⇒ 3500 INHIBITOR TOWER HEALTH 2800 ⇒ 4000 NEXUS TOWER HEALTH 3000 ⇒ 4000

and then the very next patch (still preseason 6):

OUTER TURRET HEALTH 3500 ⇒ 4000 INNER TURRET HEALTH 3500 ⇒ 4000

But hey, just like the OP you intentionally decided to ignore that part right?

EinarUlfarNov 1, 20172 votes

I didn't ignore this. It's just that unlike you, I've taken into consideration all the tools we've been handed to demolish turrets since then, and would really enjoy just anyone with pen not shredding turrets.

DactylogramNov 1, 20171 votes

Since pre season 6 what tools to demolish turrets have we been given? The only one I can think of is ohmwrecker, but no one buys that. You could argue ZZ rot, but after the nerf happened in early s7/ late s6 no one builds it anymore.

PB4UAMENov 1, 20174 votes

RIFT HERALD

20% more AP into tower damage

Mountain Drake

Infernal Drake

Elder Drake

Ziggs Satchel Charge

About 30 more abilities working on tower than previously

Removal of Hiem passive healing towers

Trist rework to shred towers

Baron changes

ZZ'rot Portal

Weakened towers (removal of BDA, went from 400 armor and MR to 40 max, and affected by pen)

Removal of Laser towers (actually needed to deal with super minions. Modern nexus towers will be taken, as will the nexus, in under a minute by 2 waves of super minions, if you don't intervene. This allows for teams to win after mutual aces, just due to minions pushing while everyone is dead)

Removal of shield towers (would also shield themselves, vastly increasing their survivability, especially to minions and chip damage)

Re-balancing of tower damage to do a set, and fixed % of minion HP (which makes them kill minion waves slower, especially for siege and super minions, let alone BoC buffed minions)

First tower gold (to incentivize towers, coupled with towers no longer starting with their full stats (AD, resists, etc) but needing to scale up over game time to reach them, despite the game generally ending before 30 minutes)

Minion pushing changes (Did you know, if you have a higher level than the enemy team, your minions do more damage to enemy minions and structures? Did you know if you average level is also at least 1 higher, they get an additional buff worth 3 times that previous buff, that stacks with it too? Did you also know if you have more turrets in a lane than your opponents that your minions take less damage from enemy minions and structures? Did you know if you have more average turrets this also gets another buff worth 3x the initial one, stacking additively, and that all four buffs can be on at the same time, and also affect super minions?) This causes the wining minions to always push, and since there are no shield towers, these minions guarantee some level of chip damage on to towers, and force the defending team to constantly defend, so the other team can rotate, take objectives, and still be doing passive tower damage.

I mean, there's even more, but I think you get the point.

LordGeovanniNov 2, 20172 votes

Cait now headshots towers.

PB4UAMENov 1, 20172 votes

I actually calculated out the towers EHP elsewhere in the thread, and did not ignore that data, but showed how even fucking with that against backdooring those changes lowered the EHP of turrets by OVER FUCKING 51% and the break even point when not being backdoored is at a lone 25 armor pen, and equal with zero fucking magic pen, as they increased the amount AP damage does to tower to already MORE THAN COMPENSATE FOR THE EXTRA HP THEY ADDED

Jesus fucking christ. Actually do some EHP calculations and see for yourself how much they fucking GUTTED towers in this patch.

Meep ManOct 31, 20179 votes

Riot already stated they are buffing towers in one of the preseason patches by increasing their overall health. Minions will push faster as well, but they stated it should still be an overall increase in durability for the towers.

UwhtaznNov 1, 20178 votes

Hey I got one: What happen to tier 3 boots returning one day?

Shepherd o SoulsNov 1, 20175 votes

Riot keeps pushing for faster games which is pretty stupid. Kind of glad DOTA update is finally out so I have something I can actually play and enjoy for more than 20 minutes. Shit, even my BATTLERITE match lasted longer than my league one.

I really hope riot stops with this '20 minute stomps for fast climbing' ideology and just fixes ranked system in itself instead if they want fast climbs. Games wouldn't have to end so fast if rigged promos werent a thing for a fact, and mmr system was in a better spot.

AhrisOct 31, 20174 votes

Want to make ADCs even stronger? Making turrets stronger will make games longer, so ADC will once again(and still is) the strongest role in game

L Psy KongrooOct 31, 201746 votes

{quoted}

Want to make ADCs even stronger? Making turrets stronger will make games longer, so ADC will once again(and still is) the strongest role in game

Doesn't really matter how long the game goes, ADC will always be the strongest role. They're just as strong in the current 20 minute games as they were in the 40 minute games of yesteryear. Turrets needs buffs AND ADCs need nerfs, not one or the other.

AirKingNeoOct 31, 20172 votes

While I agree with turrets and ADCs being completely unrelated, I would argue tanks and maybe even supports are more broken than ADCs. Most ADCs right now are just a product of the meta, with a few exceptions (looking at you Twitch and Xayah). Not to say ADCs don't need nerfs, but I would say they, by themselves, are the problem.

EDIT: Literally says the most correct thing ever and the boards are like "fuck you". Seriously, downvoting comments that are correct like this are why NO ONE should ever take the boards seriously. You all want this meta to end, but you're a bunch of bias hypocrites. Why on Earth why you want to leave tanks or supports broken? Does that solve the issue with this meta? Does that help the game be more balanced by having a clear bias for a class?

Faceroll TacticsOct 31, 20175 votes

Tanks are broken because they’re the only ones who can survive an adc for extended periods and in the case of Galio have incredible peel for their adcs.

AirKingNeoOct 31, 20172 votes

So you agree when I say both tanks and ADCs (and supports who boost them) have both been powercreeped and therefore both broken?

LordGeovanniOct 31, 20175 votes

Nope only the adcs have been powercreeped the other two classes have been nerfed and but because the adcs have been powercreeped tanks and supports are more important in multiplying adcs now higher strength rather than spreading it around the team or having the power in their own kits. They are not broken they have broken interactions with adcs and can be fixed by nerfing just the adc. all the nerfed support items in the past year are contextually garbage during their power point of you remove the one context that they gave adcs extra survivability or gave boosted adc damage. Tank staying alive long enough to use their cc twice during a fight garbage if you didnt have the context of adcs killing people 3-5 shot with auto attacks while the cc is going on.

AirKingNeoOct 31, 20171 votes

When were tanks nerfed? Last I checked, tanks got buffed when Stoneplate gave them 50% damage reduction for 4 seconds and they no longer can lose lane thanks to Bramble Vest. When were supports nerfed? Last I checked, Riot hasn't nerfed Locket, Redemption, or the peeling effect of Knight's Vow. Nor has Coin been nerfed.

Maybe tanks are immune to damage that isn't ADC damage, then maybe tanks are broken. Maybe if supports make ADCs immune to death, maybe they're broken.

Literally once you nerf ADCs, we're back to tanks ruling top lane being unkillable like start of this season. Buff ADCs like Riot did foolishly (and keep supports as broken), and we're back to here. Nerf tanks (and supports), and we're closer to a balanced game. I prefer a balanced game.

LordGeovanniNov 1, 20173 votes

Tanks have been taking group and individual nerfs since season 4 the rebalance of champion stats and hp5 the rebalance of ad items and ap items and subsequent nerf armor and magic resist items in season 4 and 5 and the rebalance of crit items in season 6 and nerf of armor and health the nerf of magic resist. the health and increase of armor but armor pen is stupid powerful not 3 months ago and magic resist nerfed.
there is also squishy ranged gaining more health base armor and magic resist level from season 4 health and armor per level is season 4. magic resist per level 3 months ago. all hampering tanks damage and how long they survive. Tanks were unkillable at the beginning of what season! Not when adcs were running around with lethality ignoring most of tanks armor before they could even build it because tanks had a hard time getting gold when they pushed out of lane all lane phase. you use skills to farm you lose skirmish in lane and cant farm you skirmish in lane you cant farm and lose the skirmish then lose lane. tanks have been and are in a catch 22. tanks are not supposed to be taken down fast or with just 1 person even if they are ahead tanks are supposed to be focused by groups of people over time and focused by fighters when off in side lanes. same way assassins are supposed to shut down mages and adcs but adcs 3 shot kill assassins and mages burst kill assassins in 1 combo.

AirKingNeoNov 1, 20171 votes

Do you have such a large bias against me that you'd argue despite all facts being in my favor, or do you actually believe the nonsense you said?

Otherwise, explain the tank meta we've had since the beginning of season 6. Why Riot invented Bramble Vest so tanks could auto win lane, despite being the class top lane who is supposed to be weak?

LordGeovanniNov 1, 20173 votes

I dislike the stupid adc meta we have been having since season 4. Your statements arent doing anything to increase your image in my eyes though i dont particually care. You say you have facts but you i dont see them speak on your points an say that they are false because they only happen by virtue of being with an adc like saying a body guard is famous because he is always seen with a celebrity. You dont even dispute any of my points and put your argument as to why its so. You explain tank meta cause i cant explain what i dont see. only tanks that are even viable are ones that cc for a short time while adcs instagib crit people. the only ones that can be used are the ones that benefit adcs directly. Tanks do build bramble vest and not auto win lane but make it so that fights are discouraged. that is the intended effect of the item but not to the extent of which it is able to discourage fights but that is largely because fighters are weak as a result of nerfed tank items less defense for tanks also translates into less defense for fighters so fighters go for weaker fighting builds and go for health scaling builds which was also nerfed in the tank update 2-3 months ago.

AirKingNeoNov 1, 20171 votes

We haven't been having an ADC meta since season 4. ADC meta was the first half of season 6 when Corki mid and marksmen jungle was all the buzz.

Why even dispute you points? You'll just say something just as nonsensical to counter it. I'd rather give you a scenario and hope to god you use your head and figure it out.

There are no ADCs instagibbing tanks. Have you watched pro play? Any high elo stream? Anything? Hypercarry ADCs are the only class that is killing tanks at a REASONABLE rate. Other classes can't dent tanks. That's a fact and I want you to research it so you realize how stupid that is.

And also, you know you are wrong if you just look a glance at high elo. People are complaining about tanks and supports being stupid as helll; more than complaining about ADC. If that doesn't give you a sign that tanks (and supports) might be a little fucking broken, aside from being the only class picked in competitive play for top lane for the past 2 years (except for Jayce, Gnar, and Rumble who just fuck everyone and Renekton/J4 who just abuse Stoneplate). Seriously, the facts still remain.

LordGeovanniNov 2, 20171 votes

3-5 second killing tanks is not reasonable where tanks cant even use 2 rotations of their skills for supposed to be the class with the most survivability on the game hell if the mage or assassin decides they want to help blow something on the tank.

AirKingNeoNov 3, 20171 votes

There is no ADC killing tanks within 3-5 seconds. It's over 6 without including Stoneplate.

Seriously, and I usually don't call onto rank, can you look at an ELO higher than you? Streams exist. Pro play even exists. You will not see a tank die in under 6 seconds without a difference of 1500+ gold between targets (unless the ADC rushes LW, which is extremely rare). In bronze people fucking suck and let ADCs get that fed. Why do you think Vayne is one of the best champions in bronze? No one punishes her (knows how to) and no one can close out a game so she gets to do her bullshit. Literally ADCs can just farm side lanes unpunished and then you're like, "How the fuck did I just get blown up?" without even considering the fact that the person has a massive gold advantage on you.

And I would know this because Bronze was the easiest thing ever playing Kayle, who is literally like an ADC.

BoilTheOilNov 1, 20173 votes

What good tanks are there right now even Galio kind of JarvanIV and thats pretty much it the rest of the tanks are mediocre

AirKingNeoNov 1, 20173 votes

Maokai Chogath Sejuani Zac Shen Ornn

BoilTheOilNov 1, 20176 votes

Maokai I guess hes pretty good but i'd rather have Urgot Jayce Singed

Chogath Not op can't even one shot with ult anymore stoneplate interaction is fixed

Sejuani Nerfed

Zac Got gutted

Shen only good for some comps

Ornn Hes ok

AirKingNeoNov 1, 20174 votes

maokai is still pick ban

cho'gath's stoneplate interaction was never fixed and he still has a free laning phase

Still good

still needs fixing but he does suck

shen is balanced, not mediocre

refer to shen ^

BoilTheOilNov 1, 20172 votes

balanced doesn't mean op and stoneplate gives base health not bonus health so cho ult won't do more dmg

Bob the ToastrNov 1, 20172 votes

You're both right, sort of. Cho's ult scales with only bonus health, and Stoneplate used to increase your max health by 40/100% of your current health. This was all given as bonus health.

The way it works now is it gives you 40/100% of your base health as base health and 40/100% of your bonus health as bonus health. This is a bunch of fancy numbers that means nothing in most cases except for bonus health scalings.

Ex. Before: If you had 1500 base health and 1500 bonus health (3000 total), activating Stoneplate with 3 enemies around would give you 3000 bonus health, increasing Cho's ult damage by an extra 300.

After: If you had 1500 base health and 1500 bonus health (3000 total), activating Stoneplate with 3 enemies around you gives 1500 more base health and 1500 more bonus health. This only increases Cho's ult damage by an extra 150 instead of 300.

Result is you still get the same amount of health out of activating Stoneplate, but it helps curb it's effectiveness for bonus health scalings.

AirKingNeoNov 1, 20171 votes

No, it gives whatever kind of HP based on what its based on.

If I have 1000 BASE HP and 500 BONUS HP, stoneplate gives 1000 base and 500 bonus on-top.

BoilTheOilNov 1, 20171 votes

either way he probably won't oneshot anymore

A BepiOct 31, 201716 votes

ADC are problematic because assassins lost their instant burst and their only counters cant do that anymore. On top of assassins losing their instant burst riot also added support items that make adc impossible to die item 3190 item 3107 item 3222 . So the only reason they are the best class is simply because assassins are simply not that relevant anymore, back in the days adc were strong but so were assassins and they had an easy time shutting down adc and tanks are good because they can survive adc better than any class.

Sewer SideNov 1, 20175 votes

Excuse me but assassins haven't been good since season 4, so mind telling me what kept ADCs in check for 3 seasons?

Mages do fine against ADCs, assassins never kept any class in check.

Darkdemon653Oct 31, 20174 votes

While that should happen, there isn't much ArP and MPen going around anyway. Their MR and armor aren't reduced by % penetration. Towers are just really really weak.

KennysDreamGirlNov 1, 20174 votes

they need to do something. I just had a game where I tp bot for a gank and before I even back a jayce with nothing but dirk had it taken down from full hp

Votable JesterOct 31, 20172 votes

It's tough to say. I think they should just get extra armor, mr, and hp to make up for it maybe?

MetleonOct 31, 20172 votes

Pretty sure they did this to make assassins better at taking objectives, because they really don't bother doing anything other than killing everyone. Though they should have increase their armor and mr at the same time to compensate.

PopcornBunniNov 1, 20172 votes

Turrets have had a lot going against them for a while. Even though they haven't faced too many direct nerfs, the rest of the game has power creeped around them. AD items get 5 or 10 extra points here and there, new champions with instantly proccable shields and untargetability keep getting added, minions start automatically pushing waves, tank items get higher armor coupled with very slow turret damage ramp up making dives occur as early as level 2 with no real consequence or precision required. Turret stats increase only with time, while games have become shorter and levels gained quicker, making them not scale as quickly as the champions or even the minions in-game.

At this point turrets are glorified caster minions that exist only to give the opposing team gold and steal CS from the automatically pushing waves.

The nexus turrets offer a small bit of potential, having regenerating health after not being attacked for long enough, but the structures need a lot of improvements to catch up to where everything else in the game as come to.

Evil YasuoNov 1, 20172 votes

I think turret damage also needs to ignore armor and large health. Tanks shouldn't dive with this much ease and just live under the tower.

ChuShoeNov 1, 20173 votes

Just gonna leave this here to back you up https://youtu.be/MbRiYV5SBAI

MetleonNov 1, 20172 votes

Didn't know towers scale with time, and I honestly have no idea why they do. Towers give the same amount of (or more) gold early, and an early game gold lead is much better than a late have one.

Towers are supposed to be scary early game and a lost fight at 40 minutes should be more detrimental than a lost fight at 5 minutes.

ModKnightsKemplarNov 1, 20172 votes

I'm actually all for this. If you itemize to ignore champion's resists, I don't see why you should get to ignore turrets resists for free. Sensible suggestion, even if it means a few tweaks have to happen to towers.

GentlemanGhidoraNov 1, 20172 votes

I’d be happy with static minion strength that only grows with the level strength of the players.

Getting towers only to make the destroyer’s minions stronger and push harder rarely makes farming easier.

It’s NOT a catch-up mechanic. It’s a “we don’t have to push lanes now as long as we can keep forcing fights” mechanic that recents or at least discourages slitting from the team to farm up.