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Could we remove Irelia's ability to effortlessly last hit?

TheSingularity··2 votes·1,332 views

Specifically, remove this Irelia Q: 20 mana, Blade surge " Bladesurge deals double damage to Minions Killed icon minions."

To be quite frank, no champion should be able to effortlessly last hit early game under any circumstance. If anything, this spell should have a cap on it against minions With a conqueror/resolve page, Irelia deals 86 (which can go higher with domination) dmg pretty much instantly at level 1. Meanwhile not even the highest base AD champions have such a fast reliable tool that deals that much damage. Yorick Zed Nasus DrMundo all get a tool similar, but their tools are actually gated by cooldowns or attack/animation speed.

Why is irelia an exception?All of the above champions drop off late-game, zed's requires AA's and mundo's can be blocked. Shoving her into tower doesn't make life harder, and everything is just as dandy in the center of a lane. Given how fat she becomes with minimal effort, her strong generalist tool kit and her late-game scaling, why does she get such a safe laning phase?

It simply isn't a fair situation, to have one champion out of 141 be able to effortlessly and to be quite frank, skill-lessly last hit near perfectly regardless of the player and regardless of the situation.

Edit: If you're going to downvote give me a counter argument at the very least. Would prefer to have a discussion than be buried Otherwise I'll merely delete and re post to set that downvote counter back to 1

11 Comments

SwiftKitten882 votes

doesnt that constant dashing eat up her mana though?, i doubt it give a mana reset on kill and i dont think mana requirements would be so low to put it as 20 mana like Karthus Q

Moody P1 votes

you would be wrong. 20 mana

SwiftKitten882 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yroE1Aje,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-09-01T00:00:37.301+0000)

you would be wrong. 20 mana

Are you serious... . SERIOUSLY???? 20 MANA??? COME ON RIOT.. it not like 40/35/30/25/20? its just flat 20?

wow... then again thats certainlyT for you... can't give her any counterplay to work around the mana..

Doge20202 votes

{quoted}

Are you serious... . SERIOUSLY???? 20 MANA??? COME ON RIOT.. it not like 40/35/30/25/20? its just flat 20?

wow... then again thats certainlyT for you... can't give her any counterplay to work around the mana..

But She does have lower mana regen, lower max mana and her other abilities cost a lot more to counteract the CD refund and low mana cost of q.

TheSingularity2 votes

She has as much if not higher base mana and mana regen than half the champion roster. And as much if not more base mana than any champ in her class.

The only "expensive" spell she has is her W.

TheSingularity1 votes

Almost all Irelia's start corrupting pot. And while Karthus Q does have the same mana cost, it has a delay and due to the AOE can stuff up the last hitting of surrounding minions. The karthus Q cost also scales with rank while Irelia's doesn't While the cooldown is only one second, it is long enough that if you stuff it up chances are the minion dies b4 the second Q.

He then has one of the worst and slowest AA animations (with 20 less AD) in the game to back it up. Whereas irelia's is smooth and swift allowing her to get the AA in if she happens to stuff up her 20 AD stronger instant AA

Doge20201 votes

Her q is a dash. Sure her q is reset when she kills a unit with it or uses it on a champ with the mark, but if she dashes to a bad location for the reset (or even better is when it doesn’t kill the minion and her q is on full CD) you can punish her very easily because usually that means a free engage on her. A good example is with Garen, if she uses q right next to you instantly use q on her and start your e. You can then easily disengage after the silence wears off and get a bunch of free damage on her.

Even though she has an “easier” time getting CS, she has to play it smart so she doesn’t put herself into a bad position and get punished hard for it.

From looking at her kit and by playing against her a bunch I can say with experience that her early game is her worst point, nothing about it is safe. Unless you are going AP irelia and using e to farm you can’t walk up and use q to farm if the wave is on the enemy’s side of the map or the enemy laner is ahead (or has a bunch of stuff in his/her kit that counters Irelia). I have a very easy time during the early game playing against irelia.

TheSingularity1 votes

While her Q is a dash, its speed practically makes it a blink.

The problem is the "if". What "if" they never do that? If they get the reset they will have Q back up to dash away, or she can switch on that sweet damage reduction or stun and run away. She has the tools, that if she does happen to Q a minion in a really dumb spot, to get away. Garen is a unique example, but what if you're not garen? And you don't have an on demand, non-ult, instant cast hard CC spell?

only about half of the champions that counter her outside garen, don't counter her through CC or outplay potential. They simply out stat check her. They win by default regardless of what irelia does. Is that a healthy requirement for countering a champion? Source: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/

.

Even though she has an “easier” time getting CS, she has to play it smart so she doesn’t put herself into a bad position and get punished hard for it.

It isn't merely easier, it is borderline brain dead. The animation is faster than any auto attack at that stage of the game including her own. Try last hitting with Alistar Anivia Karthus without using spells. Then do the same using Irelia's Q and compare. I wonder which CS in 10 minutes will be superior?

Doge20201 votes

{quoted}

While her Q is a dash, its speed practically makes it a blink.

The problem is the "if". What "if" they never do that? If they get the reset they will have Q back up to dash away, or she can switch on that sweet damage reduction or stun and run away. She has the tools, that if she does happen to Q a minion in a really dumb spot, to get away. Garen is a unique example, but what if you're not garen? And you don't have an on demand, non-ult, instant cast hard CC spell?

only about half of the champions that counter her outside garen, don't counter her through CC or outplay potential. They simply out stat check her. They win by default regardless of what irelia does. Is that a healthy requirement for countering a champion? Source: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/

.

It isn't merely easier, it is borderline brain dead. The animation is faster than any auto attack at that stage of the game including her own. Try last hitting with Alistar Anivia Karthus without using spells. Then do the same using Irelia's Q and compare. I wonder which CS in 10 minutes will be superior?

I believe that the speed of q has to do with the distance to your target, if you are very near it (like basic attack range) then it is near instantaneous. But if you are max range it takes longer to travel.

I was using Garen as an example for something you can do during the laning phase. I think you can use darius’s E to cancel her q mid-dash, her w while she is channeling, and you can e her right when her e hits to stop her from taking advantage of you being stunned, then use your regular combo on her. Or you can use Quinn’s e to follow Irelia when she dashes away and you can use then use q to blind her and prevent her from using q again to engage or disengage.

If you really wanted a good complaint about how she can easily last hit with q, maybe say something like “try last hit with Darius using only w and his AAs, then last hit using irelia’s q and compare.” Not a perfect example, I couldn’t think of any other champs off of the top of my head that has an ability that resets the CD when you last hit using it but darius was the closest that I could think of without looking through every single champion’s abilities.

I can see why you are complaining but Irelia is really balanced right now (She has an averaged Winrate of ~50%) Sources: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/Top/ https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/irelia

TheSingularity1 votes

If you really wanted a good complaint about how she can easily last hit with q, maybe say something like “try last hit with darius using only w and his AAs, then last hit using irelia’s q and compare.” Not a perfect example, I couldn’t think of any other champs off of the top of my head that has an ability that resets the CD when you last hit using it but darius was the closest that I could think of without looking through every single champion’s abilities.

It wasn't about the reset. I was comparing champions with horrid auto attack animations who could use an insta last hit tool, to a champ with a good AA animation (irelia) who for some reason has one when she doesn't need it at all.

I was using Garen as an example for something you can do during the laning phase. I think you can use darius’s E to cancel her q mid-dash, her w while she is channeling, and you can e her right when her e hits to stop her from taking advantage of you being stunned, then use your regular combo on her. Or you can use Quinn’s e to follow Irelia when she dashes away and you can use then use q to blind her and prevent her from using q again to engage or disengage.

There're undoubtedly ways to play around her assuming you pick the right champion, namely the ones who walk over her like she's nothing. But take this match up into mid lane, where we have mages with slower spells and generally high telegraphs on their CC (if they have hard CC at all).

It's less about whether you can punish her or not, or how she scales, or what the rest of her kit does. It's the sheer fact that you can last hit almost perfectly with her because she's given such an effective last hitting tool (not because you're proficient with her AA animation or proficient in last hitting at all) and unless you're a bully like syndra/ahri you've got no chance in hell unless irelia dashes into your spell. Being out farmed purely because she has this spell feels horrid. Because it's simply fact that without it, you'd likely be dead even with irelia or even ahead.

If you want a smooth last hitting tool. Fine. Cap the dmg to minions or remove the double dmg, and make the mana cost scale with rank. There needs to be a downside to her being able to flawlessly and brainlessly last hit. Otherwise she needs to be on a level playing field with everyone else, without it.

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