The almighty Quill Coat and why it should return.

TheSingularity··38 votes·2,224 views

Note: this is jungle tanks as a whole. While sej may be broken and rammus/mao are fine, they do not amount to the entire class.pm

While there’s consistently been a strong tank to pick in the jungle.. be it pre-change Zac, Sejuani, Gragas or Rammus… tanks have been struggling to be relevant in the jungle for a long time now.

In saying that, tanks did get some time in the spotlight in season 5, during everyone’s favorite “Cinderhulk Meta” where we saw Sejuani rule the rift and the weaker tanks actually became valuable as junglers for the first time since pre-pre-season 2015. Despite that entire meta revolving around my favourite class in my favourite position, I don’t want that situation. It wasn’t an enjoyable time period for assassin players or any champion who couldn’t act as a tank buster. Surprisingly it wasn’t that enjoyable for me either. Instead of seeing different tanks, it felt like I was seeing the Lee Sin of tanks… over and over and over again. This game doesn’t revolve around me, and having been through the times where picking a tank in the jungle was as stupid as picking Zed vs cinderhulk Sejunai, I don’t want anything like the cinderhulk meta to return. But I also don’t want my favourite champions to sit in the swamp until the right champions/items are nerfed and the jungle adjusted just right for my picks to not be a handicap to my team mates.

When I started in season 3, tanks weren’t too different to what they are now in the jungle. Back then divers and assassins were the go to champions. Nocturne, lee sin, vi, Xin zhao, the infamous AP Yi, Kha zix and elise sat at the top of the jungle’s food chain. As a level 16 pleb, I vsed a shaco who 1v5’ed our team. He got so fed from the jungle that no one could stop him. And from then on I was hooked. I HAD! To jungle, it was merely a matter of picking a champion I liked. And this stupid pleb picked Nautilus. While it was hell for a while, my persistence payed off when patch 4.11 arrived.

In patch 4.11, Riot set out to help the utility tank junglers who’d been struggling to perform against their still dominant diver and assassin competition. And their solution was an item that worked wonders and made not only the 2 champions riot targeted viable (naut and mao), but also every other utility tank in the game. This item, was the Quill coat. To save you searching, the quill coat was a 700-gold item, built from hunters machete and a cloth armor. It only offered one stat, +20 armor and its active provided a ward to help spot invading enemies which were common. But it’s passive was the star of the show. Sapping Barbs: Attacking monsters lose 5% of their max health over 3 seconds (up to 150). Owner gains +40 HP regen/5 and +30 mana regen/5 while in combat with monsters.

This item solved the horrid jungle clear plaguing tanks and its build path meant that all tanks would clear monsters at a certain rate, which was only assisted using their kits (eg all champs with a quill coat cleared the 6 camps in Xmin-time saved through using kit). It offered absolutely NOTHING to other classes. There was no build half and then turn it into something else (titanic build path into ravenous on fiora). Because quill coat built only into one thing, Spirit of the ancient golem. While Spirit of the ancient golem granted 200 less health, that was the only downside when you compare it to the current cinderhulk. It granted 10% more bonus HP, 20 armour, 10% CDR, A GOLD INCOME PASSIVE! And a jungle clearing passive that could be STACKED WITH SUNFIRE CAPE! This patch was like the morning of Christmas, a present that did everything I ever wanted it to do in this game….. an item that allowed tanks to be on even footing with the rest of the competition.

But, come pre season 2015… Quill coat disappears from the game as riot implements their new smite system into league of legends. They gave NO reason for this, they gave tanks NO compensation and the result was easily the most pathetic jungle item ever to have existed in league of legends (this is pre cinderhulk). It granted health, that was it. Until cinderhulk and trackers knife tanks lost sapping barbs, a ward, 25% bonus HP, 10% CDR and their gold income bonus.

Riot removed it, the only logical reason being because it didn’t suit the structure for jungle items they’d planned. Well, it’s been over 2 years, how about we give it another try?

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My proposal: Returning item: Quill coat. The item remains mostly unchanged but the ward active, mana regen and hp regen has been removed. And the recipe has been changed. It is now a jungle enchant to replace cinderhulk. Quill coat costs 1000 gold Item recipe: Cloth armor (300)+ruby crystal (400)+300 gold. Grants: 20 armor, 150 HP and sapping barbs as mentioned above.

Then, it’s stats when upgraded with a smite: Total cost, 2625 which is the same as current cinderhulk. Jungle smite (1000)+quill coat (1000)+ruby crystal (400)+ 225 gap Grants: 300 HP (could be reduced to 200, but I’m going halfway between cinder and ancient golem) +25% bonus HP+20 armor+10% CDR (2 ruby crystals make a kindlegem gold wise, but having it in quill coat recipe made the component too $$) +sapping barbs passive (it deals the same damage as quill coat, it DOES NOT get stronger with the upgrade). Then it gets the usual stats from whatever smite you have bought.

This is an overall buff to the tank item late-game. It can be argued that the CDR is unnecessary due to the abundance of CDR items (spirit+warmog+FH=40% but that isn’t always optimal and tank items are cheap enough that I usually go over by 10% anyway) however I kept it there for consistency with the original items. If it was removed, I’d leave the recipe alone and make the HP +300.

This is the solution that will bring the rest of the tank class up to speed without indirectly buffing ANYONE ELSE. This item will only be used as a jungle component and won’t be abusable in lane as monsters need to hit you for the passive to work. To boot, if a tank falls behind they can build sunfire cape again to bolster their jungle clear to help em catch up. I don't want to turn nautilus or any tank into cinderhulk sejuani. But I'm tired of jungle tanks being as useless as the towers that are supposedly meant to protect us. It worked once, it can work again

Edit: honestly didn't expect such positive feedback to such a biased thread. Now all i gotta do is get a rioters attention.

45 Comments

Dethflash12 votes

I used to play a LOT of Nautilus jungle during season 5, but now Nautilus jungle feels like a troll pick. Clear is so slow, and most junglers can invade Nautilus early before he gets any tank stats. Riot please make Nautilus jungle viable again

TheSingularity1 votes

It truly was such a satisfying experience. To look at my fed as fk mid and top and go "that was aaaaaaaaall me". And the peel, GOOD GOD THE PEEL! It made the divers cry XD

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I still despise how they moved damage from his W to his E and have nerfed him several times since then without giving back that W damage. Like... aside from his clear he was fine in the jungle then but now...

TheSingularity2 votes

Then they nerf his E cos of top lane nautilus. It's amusing that windspeaker nautilus is by far the healthiest clear of any keystone. But these new monsters (espesh red buff) really pummel his W too quick

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

What's really sad is that now I need to find a new jungler since Maokai was the last one I had that hadn't been nerfed to hell or turned into a crystal slave and now he's just an E bot support. We'll see if that changes this patch but I bet further issues will pop up.

TheSingularity1 votes

I switched to zac up til they destroyed him.

Now I've abandoned the position and prefer yorick top. I can still be fat and offer a powerful split that's surprisingly uncommon in oce (killed an inhib in 12 minutes last week). Or kled if I really want to be useful with dat ult

LankPants5 votes

I'd like to see it as a basic item like item 1039 / item 1041 personally, then you could either make the knives build from all 3+150 gold (200 more than current) and knock 200 off the combine prices of enchants to keep them the same or you could just make knives build from 2 of the 3, although that would mean there'd be an absurd number of fully upgraded jungle items in shop, 36 if my calculations aren't garbage.

TheSingularity1 votes

I took a similar approach initially.

First was make it a smite to replace green smite. But that provides an obvious strong option that everyone would buy. (Causing huge balance issues)

I did want machete or talisman to be a component. But some beef champs like zac and mundo don't want talisman. While naut and mao don't want machete. And that then leads to you building 3 350 gold jungle items as components. 2 for smite. 1 for quill coat.

As for your approach. A smite component item of that price (looking at 150 gold suggestion) would simply be too weak, and the many combinations would be sooooo hard to balance. But I think there needs to be some weakness somewhere (the very first clear). Otherwise what risk is there in picking naut over vi? This delays their clear just enough to not break their legs but just not enough to allow them to access strong clears via quilll coat rather early.

So I figured this would be a far more gentle build path that offered armor to resist tanks like mal sej and ram. As well as HP for naut zac and sion. In the end they all benifit from both stats.

LankPants2 votes

As for your approach. A smite component item of that price (looking at 150 gold suggestion) would simply be too weak, and the many combinations would be sooooo hard to balance.

That's not what I'm saying, it would be a 350 gold component and you'd combine it with the other two for 150 gold to get the knife. The problem with this approach is that 3 passive knife would certainly trivialise the current jungle.

What I'd prefer is for the knife to be the same as current but built out of two components which you chose. So you could go with the current knife, Quill+Machete or Quill+Talisman. The main problem I see with this approach is the shop limitation. The jungle items already take up 12 slots in the shop and the only way for this to work would be to triple this amount and have 36 items.

So I figured this would be a far more gentle build path that offered armor to resist tanks like mal sej and ram. As well as HP for naut zac and sion. In the end they all benifit from both stats.

Your solution still falls into the same pitfall as Cinder. That item already lets tanks clear the jungle easily. What they need are better options on their early clears.

TheSingularity2 votes

Can see the second point moar clearly now. And if I understand right 4 minutes after waking up: The issue with making it a component for the knife, is that it then becomes avaliable for everyone and buffs everyones clears, not just tanks.

Perhaps reduce the cost of the quil coat to 800 gold (300+400+100). It becomes the same price as quill coat used to be and a full clear+successful gank easily covers the cost.

Boosting the first clear would be out of the question. If tanks have no weak time then invading champs would have a significantly harder time against them.

Time2ConductEvil2 votes

This I can agree with. Clearing can be a pain pre-Cinder for some tanks, so I'd like to see Quill Coat's "Monsters-only" thornmail effect return in a cheaper item, maybe with the damage based off of health/resists since champions like Lee Sin go for damage first.

TheSingularity2 votes

The issue with basing its damage of health/resists is that different tanks end up with different amounts at different stages. So this could lead to inconsistent clear speeds where tanks like new sej, rammus and malhpite have an edge due to their kits.

By making it scale off monster HP, a specific tank can be toned down a little bit if need be instead of nerfing the item for everyone (which would be the case with sej if it was based of resists).

Admittedly I wanted to do that, but then I remembered how stupid cinder sej's W used to be, and figured for it to be balanced lategame, it'd have to be pretty bleh early to compensate (which is when u want that clear the most )

junglerboy162 votes

Honestly what made Quill coat good was the insane regen it provided while not amping up clear speed enough to make it desirable on the damage threat junglers. That is actually one of the big issues with the current jungle items, is they all provide sustain when jungling (including for the high damage champs)

Back when the jungle items where all spirit stone upgrades (SotAG, SotEL, SotSW) and Wriggles', the largest issue Riot faced was that all of the upgrades gave flat regen, leading to some champs who shouldn't have had it being able to jungle indefinitely, while others (i.e. tanks) would barely survive camp to camp. That's when they switched SotEL and SotSW to a monster damage vamp system and gave SotAG a monster combat regen system. I'd push for them to customize the regen offered by each of the finished smite enchantments based on the class it is designed for (for instance, tanks receive some form of extra regen, while fighters would get extra health sustain and mages might get extra mana sustain beyond the gimpy echo's refund)

I think as a whole though, the idea of reimplementing Quill coat is perfect. That's when tanks felt the best to play as and against (while it lasted) cuz they got tanky as hell but dealt pretty low damage for the time.

50000000000000001 votes

I think Quill Coat building into thornmail (for laners) wouldn't be a terrible idea, because of the similar effect and theme. Quill Coat passive can have a flat base damage (without %) and %HP regen (since that's just the trend), which is further increased when in combat against monsters.

TheSingularity1 votes

If this were to be the case, it would become worse as the game progressed. As monsters level up every time they die, gaining more HP. Eventually the passive wouldn't be doing much.

It was the same in season 4 which is why %HP was used. So that it would always clear just as fast

50000000000000002 votes

Oh, my bad. I wasn't clear there. I meant to say upon upgrading into jungle item, it would do %HP damage, and upon upgrading it into Thornmail, it'll be scaling with armor or something. But just as Quill coat, it would do flat damage.

TheSingularity1 votes

There we go. I can see that working and it would definitely provide it with another reason for existing (so it isn't a one off bandaid).

I like it and with recent news about thornmails potential grievous wounds addition. Could be awesome. But I'd worry about having to buy 2 (one for jg smite the other for thorn). If that makes sense and I've correctly interpreted ur post

50000000000000001 votes

You're right, it would mean the new cinderhulk (I guess the name should change) and thornmail would share named unique passive, and by sitting on completed jungle item and quill coat, you'd only get more stats from quill coat.

Not really sure if we'll need to buy both, though. Most people didn't buy both cinderhulk and sunfire cape (even before the champion damage nerf to sunfire cape).

TheSingularity1 votes

People don't currently by both because immolate doesn't stack, so all you gain is HP and armor. Quill and sunfire however I bought every game because immolate+sapping barbs=amazing clears.

50000000000000001 votes

Right, I meant the "quillhulk" and thornmail stack would be bad. That seems as counterproductive as stacking cinderhulk and sunfire cape. I guess you would still be able to stack quillhulk and sunfire cape, though.

TheSingularity1 votes

It was basically a fall back for some. I liked to get it so I could solo dragons easier. If they fell behind they'd get sunfire first so they'd be able to power farm as fast as say graves. Quil+sunfire+any tank=god like clears

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

if it makes jungle leona at least stand a chance i'm up for it.

TheSingularity1 votes

You could pick, literally any tank and it'd work. a really good one was invading with quill coat alistar and full ap runes. So amusing XD

iTaLenTZ1 votes

Season 4 and 5.....those were the good times

Keevalroy1 votes

Strongly disagree that Mao is "fine," but I support QC returning. I'd rather see the full Juggernaut enchant, but I suppose this would be enough for now anyway.

TheSingularity1 votes

By fine, I guesse I mean he's fine in that "he can jungle without being a handicap"

AirKingNeo1 votes

25% extra health is massive and overpowered. Top laners will buy it.

Reduce to 15% HP, give it 25 armor (Quill Coat gives 20 and this version of Cinderhulk gives 0??)

TheSingularity1 votes

Reduce bonus HP to 200 and leave as is.

25% is huge. But top laners will have to deal with having smite (they lose tp or flash), a useless passive (doesn't work on minions) and they'll be stuck building pure HP to maximize its effect.

It's simply not worth buying the item for that one component. You lose far more than you gain. You could've bought roa, deadmans, sunfire or a cleaver.

Top laners didn't buy it before, I doubt they'd do it now if it meant sacrificing a summoner spell.

AirKingNeo1 votes

(Quill Coat gives 20 and this version of Cinderhulk gives 0??)

Also top laners did buy Cinderhulk on Cinderhulk's release. Season 5 tank meta

If you give it 200 HP, then it's dogshit early game.

TheSingularity1 votes

I'm not talking about cinderhulk. I'm talking about quill coat and spirit of the ancient golem. This is season 4, the only jungle item bought was spirit of the wraith by Vladimir.

No top laner will want quill coat because it ONLY HITS MONSTERS!

AirKingNeo1 votes

Your idea has Quill Coat build into Cinderhulk, but Cinder will give 0 armor. That's not how design works.

Again, 25% HP is overpowered for obvious reasons and 200 HP alone is underpowered. Up the base, reduce the %. Here we arrive at balance.

TheSingularity1 votes

Re read. The armor was there. And it isn't turning into cinderhulk. The entire enchant is being replaced by what is essentially spirit of the ancient golem.

Given the recent health nerfs to items. And the fact that it made it to live and lasted 9 patches untill pre season without ANY public outcry for nerfs and any impact on the pro scene speaks of its balance.

Sejuani was a unique case in the 25% bonus, in that her counters were nerfed just before cinderhulks release. She was never a hot pick during spirit of the ancient golem

How about we do some math, of old items with this proposal vs new items with it.

For a manaless champ for max hp. We will have 4 items+golem with boots being the absent number. And I'll make the HP the same as the original golem (400) for good measure.

400 (new item)+425+450+350+800+25% bonus health (606) =3031 hp excluding champ health as that isn't bonus health.

Now let's use 2014 numbers before the removal of quill and golem. Deadmans plate wasn't around so we use that version of sunfire cape. 400+450 (sunfire)+400(spirit visage)+500 (randuins)+1000 (warmogs)+25%bonus hp (687) =3437 hp under same conditions.

Even IF i use the old numbers, which are bigger as a total than current. WITH THE CURRENT 15% BONUS FROM CINDERHULK. We get 3162.

Even with the a better bonus of 25%, a current build with this item I want still loses by 131 HP against what we used to have.

You think it's OP because it sounds like a big number. But compared to what we used to have, it's nothing

its me brna1 votes

Tanks have been struggling in the Jungle you say?

Honestly, I have been playing Malphite Jungle and it's working out just fine. Amumu also appears to be doing very well as does Sejuani. Zac appears to be the problem child however I believe that's because people haven't figured out how to do well with him or mastered his new kit. When they adjusted Aatrox, his win rate dipped down horribly and yet now he has a ~52% win rate, ranked 9th in Top laners.

Tanks are far from "weak", players are just not playing them optimally.

TheSingularity1 votes

Sej is currently broken, zac is exactly as you described and I'm not sure why you bought aatrox in as an example. As for mal, he's in a similar state to rammus in that he thrives on a stat that helps (armor). And his kit counters monsters well, dat E especially.

You talked about a diver being played in the top lane so I lil confused there as to how h

As for playing them optimally. I've tried many combinations of runes and jungle routes for my weaker and honestly preferred tanks. But the jungle is simply too strong for them. But they can't be buffed directly because of possible lane dominance

its me brna1 votes

{quoted}

Sej is currently broken, zac is exactly as you described and I'm not sure why you bought aatrox in as an example. As for mal, he's in a similar state to rammus in that he thrives on a stat that helps (armor). And his kit counters monsters well, dat E especially.

You talked about a diver being played in the top lane so I lil confused there as to how h

As for playing them optimally. I've tried many combinations of runes and jungle routes for my weaker and honestly preferred tanks. But the jungle is simply too strong for them. But they can't be buffed directly because of possible lane dominance

Because, a lot of the things players are complaining about are not legit problems with the champion / game. It's like someone playing 10 games on Riven and trying to say that Riven is weak because they got shit on 10 times in row due to not having practiced or mastered playing the champion. Aatrox was proof of this fact big time. He's not a tank, but it's more or less showing the power of understanding how to properly use a champion in any situation. When Aatrox got his "mini rework" his win rate was the lowest in the game. Once players started getting better, he sky rocketed to one of the highest Top lane win rates of all champions with little done by Riot to really buff him.

Zac is also struggling in the same regard as Aatrox was, he has updated mechanics that players are not used to. His win rate is affected because of this, however that doesn't mean that he's a weak champion. Not every champion has a "Garen styled" kit that you can play 1 game with and fully understand everything that can be done with him. Zac's new kit is very complex, and while I don't have the experience to judge too much, usually Riot is in the ballpark of how the champion should be when they release updates like this. While they sometimes are indeed a little off in left field with the numbers, usually it's not drastic and any faults boil down to players not having enough experience with the updated kit.

TheSingularity1 votes

In this case however, they are legit problems.

I've played the more utility based champions from the moment I started. If I adc i use jhin varus and jinx. Top I use kled and yorick. Mid I use velkoz exclusively.

I'm not perfect. There are times where I cancel my aa on naut and lose some dmg cos my shield gets popped against a buff.

But I'm not here to complain about Zac. In his current state I couldn't care less as I know longer enjoy him. Besides, this has been an even bigger problem since post pre season 2017 (before tank changes).

But nautilus, poppy, shen, skarner, j4 and even supports like leona, braum and likely tahm kench could all jungle well thanks to quill coat. But now... naut doesn't even have enough data to be registered as a jungle pick.

This isn't about not being good enough as a jungler or that it's simply harder. I've mained naut for 4 years through the ups and downs. Getting a positive win rate is hard enough when you have zero carry potential. But now it's not possible with some junglers. SEASON 3 was hard. Season 6 was a tad easier. Season 4 was perfect and season 5 was good but fawed.

But now, in season 7, some tanks simply don't have the stats to compete with the top dogs. The jungle simply deals more damage before the monsters die, the gromp buff is gone and with 2 less monsters at each buff, we gain less hp and mana because we're being hit by less monsters. I can't optimize and I can't adapt. I've tried and there simply isn't a situation where I'm not a handicap with my favorite champions.

A Bepi1 votes

I used to love this item, made jungling so much easier and tbh I even purchased in eve since it helped me clear jungle much quicker. I really miss this item, never really saw it on many people so I never really found it problematic.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

I would like to see it also give mr at the cost of hp and armor aspects. Otherwise it favored against ad threats and weak against ap threats instead of being a rounded tank item. Probably lose the CDR as well.

TheSingularity1 votes

It isn't meant to be a rounded generalist item, but purely a jungle item. Which is why it was given armor since none of the jungle monsters deal magic damage. The item doesn't even take ad champs into consideration. It isn't about reducing the damage taken from them. It's about reducing dmg taken from monsters which MR does nothing to mitigate.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Yes but it's a jungle item meant to help tank junglers. Giving it a bit of all the tank stats means it's a more well rounded without feeling too strong or weak against certain damage sources. Why can't it be well rounded if brought back?

TheSingularity1 votes

Because that's not the problem trying to be solved. Tanks have MR items, tanks have an mr/armor item. What tanks don't have are healthy and strong jungle clears.

Tanks have visage, abyssal, adaptive helm and that new mr/armor item I forgot the name of. They are not in need of another mr item.

Why do you think the current one doesn't have mr? Because it doesn't contribute to the job the item serves. That is to aid in and provide healthy jungle clears. MR does nothing to contribute and it isn't worth trading armor and health which help a tanks clear for mr that won't come into play until a tank starts grouping and face tanking.

If monsters dealt magic damage. I'd gladly chuck a bit of mr in there. But they don't so it is completely unnecessary

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

Visage blows if you don't have some form of sustain built in sustain, abyssal blows if your not a AP tank, adaptive helm is situational, and stoneplate cuts your damage by 60%. These aren't bad items but they definitely became more niche/specialized. Even SV after the nerf. Yes the item won't have a direct impact on the jg, but it will let you skirmish better since you both type of resistance, especially when you have to 2v2 or 3v3.

TheSingularity1 votes

Oops forgot locket

But I do understand your stance in mr aiding skirmishes against say elise or eve and bot lane ganks against say zyra brand or velkoz.

But as a jungler, I personally would much prefer stats that immediately benifit my own jungle clear in this item than MR.

If I'm struggling against AP I'll grab locket, visage (idc about its passive tbh I just want cdr, the passive is icing on top) or abyssal and merc treads.

And with better clears I can afford the mr sooner.

At this point, let's agree to disagree. I respect your viewpoint and I think it comes down to what we want in the jungle tank item.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

I understand what you want to be clear. I'm not against the idea but I definitely think it should have MR as well. Your idea isn't bad if you limit your view to just the jungle but when you consider the impact it has beyond it the item starts seem unhealthy/balance problematic. My personal/main reason is that without the MR, building this jg item would feel bad vs a magic damage heavy team and on the flipside too strong vs physical damage teams. Adding a little bit of everything defense stat wise also makes tanks jungler itemization more flexiable. By having a little bit of everything with just the jungle item your tanky enough delay building one type over the other (potentially niche defensive items that used not be optimal/good by comparison at this point of the game) early - midish game but not enough to just leave at that once the enemy starts building more damage/penetration.

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