The Quill Coat, and why it should replace Bami's Cinder and Cinderhulk

TheSingularity··27 votes·30,365 views

Note: this is jungle tanks as a whole, so while sej is decent atm, that don't mean every tank is

While there’s consistently been a half decent tank to pick in the jungle... be it Zac, Gragas or sejuani… tanks have been struggling to be relevant in the jungle for a long time now and half decent just doesn't cut it when the gap between strong and OP is so vast.

In saying that, tanks did get some time in the spotlight in season 5, during everyone’s favorite “Cinderhulk Meta” where we saw Sejuani rule the rift and the weaker tanks actually became valuable as junglers for the first time since pre-pre-season 2015. Despite that entire meta revolving around my favourite class in my favourite position, I don’t want that situation. It wasn’t an enjoyable time period for assassin players or any champion who couldn’t act as a tank buster. Surprisingly it wasn’t that enjoyable for me either. Instead of seeing different tanks, it felt like I was seeing the Lee Sin of tanks (sej)… over and over and over again. This game doesn’t revolve around me, and having been through the times where picking a tank in the jungle was as stupid as picking Zed vs cinderhulk Sejunai, I don’t want anything like the cinderhulk meta to return. But I also don’t want my favorite champions to sit in the swamp until the right champions/items are nerfed and the jungle adjusted just right for my picks to not be a handicap to my team mates.

When I started in season 3, tanks weren’t too different to what they are now in the jungle, albeit their stats had more impact than they do now. Back then divers and assassins were the go to champions. Nocturne, lee sin, vi, Xin zhao, the infamous AP Yi, Kha zix and elise sat at the top of the jungle’s food chain. As a level 16 pleb, I vsed a shaco who 1v5’ed our team. He got so fed from the jungle that no one could stop him. And from then on I was hooked. I HAD! To jungle, it was merely a matter of picking a champion I liked. And this stupid pleb picked Nautilus. While it was hell for a while, my persistence payed off when patch 4.11 arrived.

In patch 4.11, Riot set out to help the utility tank junglers who’d been struggling to perform against their still dominant diver and assassin competition. And their solution was an item that worked wonders and made not only the 2 champions riot targeted viable (naut and mao), but also every other utility tank in the game. This item, was the Quill coat. To save you searching, the quill coat was a 700-gold item, built from hunters machete and a cloth armor. It only offered one stat, +20 armor and its active provided a ward to help spot invading enemies which were common. But it’s passive was the star of the show. Sapping Barbs: Attacking monsters lose 5% of their max health over 3 seconds (up to 150). Owner gains +40 HP regen/5 and +30 mana regen/5 while in combat with monsters.

This item solved the horrid jungle clear plaguing tanks and its build path meant that all tanks would clear monsters at a certain rate, which was only assisted using their kits (eg all champs with a quill coat cleared the 6 camps in Xmin-time saved through using kit). It offered absolutely NOTHING to other classes. There was no build half and then turn it into something else (titanic build path into ravenous on fiora). Because quill coat built only into one thing, Spirit of the ancient golem. While Spirit of the ancient golem granted 200 less health, that was the only downside when you compare it to the current cinderhulk. It granted 10% more bonus HP, 20 armour, 10% CDR, A GOLD INCOME PASSIVE! And a jungle clearing passive that could be STACKED WITH SUNFIRE CAPE! This patch was like the morning of Christmas, a present that did everything I ever wanted it to do in this game….. an item that allowed tanks to be on even footing with the rest of the competition.

But, come pre season 2015… Quill coat disappears from the game as riot implements their new smite system into league of legends. They gave NO reason for this, they gave tanks NO compensation and the result was easily the most pathetic jungle item ever to have existed in league of legends (this is pre cinderhulk). It granted health, that was it. Until cinderhulk and trackers knife tanks lost sapping barbs, a ward, 25% bonus HP, 10% CDR and their gold income bonus.

Riot removed it, the only logical reason being out of laziness because it didn’t suit the structure for jungle items they’d planned. Well, it’s been over 2 years, how about we give it another try?

.

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My proposal: Returning item and bami's cinder replacement: Quill coat. The item remains mostly unchanged but mana regen and hp regen has been removed (due to them being on standard smites). And the recipe has been changed. It is now a jungle enchant to replace cinderhulk. Quill coat costs 1000 gold Item recipe: Cloth armor (300)+ruby crystal (400)+300 gold. Active: Place one sight ward that lasts 90 seconds, take downs and returning to base re fill this ward. Grants: 20 armor, 150 HP and sapping barbs as mentioned above.

THIS ITEM REQUIRES SMITE!

Then, it’s stats when upgraded with a smite: Total cost, 2625 which is the same as current cinderhulk. Jungle smite (1000)+quill coat (1000)+ruby crystal (400)+ 225 gap Grants: 300 HP (could be reduced to 200, but tanks have already lost 850 through item nerfs so this health isn't going anywhere) +20% bonus HP+20 armor+10% CDR (2 ruby crystals make a kindlegem gold wise, but having it in quill coat recipe made the component too $$) +sapping barbs passive (it deals the same damage as quill coat, it DOES NOT get stronger with the upgrade). Then it gets the usual stats from whatever smite you have bought.

This is an overall buff to the tank item late-game. It can be argued that the CDR is unnecessary due to the abundance of CDR items (spirit+warmog+FH=40% but that isn’t always optimal) however I kept it there for consistency with the original items. If it was removed, I’d leave the cost alone, add another cloth armor to the recipe and increase the armor value to 40. I did increase the health boost ratio because I'm hoping it's a happy medium between 25% which was broken and 15% which seems underwhelming. It won't come into play until lategame and will help make up for the 850 health tanks have lost mentioned above

Some may be thinking "this will be busted in lane". But remember, sapping barbs only ever works on monsters. NEVER ON CHAMPIONS! It is impossible to use this item effectively in lane.

This is the solution that will bring the rest of the tank class up to speed without indirectly buffing ANYONE ELSE. This item will only be used as a jungle component and won’t be abusable in lane as monsters need to hit you for the passive to work. To boot, if a tank falls behind they can build sunfire cape again to bolster their jungle clear to help em catch up. I don't want to turn nautilus or any tank into cinderhulk sejuani. But I'm tired of jungle tanks being as useless as the towers that are supposedly meant to protect us.

It worked once, it can work again. And it could very well solve the tank jungler problem without buffing them into a broken mess

29 Comments

ModWuks4 votes

Approved!

TheSingularity4 votes

[zombie-nunu-hearts] Awesome! Thanks

Zaelphyc3 votes

Wasn't it just last season where tank jungles literally ruled the game? Or am I missing something. Maybe it was two seasons ago, but I wouldn't say they aren't relevant now, nor has it been forever since they were able to find a place. But at the state of the game now it is a damage meta. The game goes through different metas a lot, and last season (I'm pretty sure) was the tank meta.

I still see a lot of tank jungles in my elo (mid plat to low diamond), Hec going cinder and sej are the main ones though.

I do think this is thought out, but I don't like the idea of it having the ability to lay wards. They got rid of that for pro play (also it was like never used in ranked unless you were Lee or nunu), made the game stale until the 25 minute mark and boring to watch honestly.

Other than that it looks like a good idea!

TheSingularity1 votes

Yeah twas the first 2/3 of s5 where tanks ruled over eveyone. The final third they were balanced and just about anything was viable. As far as the tank junglers. Amumu and sej are the only one's I've seen somewhat recently. There may have been an extreme outlier in the tank class in the last 3 years in pro play but a majority of jg tanks have been very weak compared to the competition

Malphite Maokai Nautilus Ornn Poppy Sejuani Zac Amumu Shen Sion TahmKench are the dudes I'm mainly talking about so hec unfortunately ain't one of them. (He falls into the diver category. More dmg less cc)

More than happy for the ward to go (kept there mainly for consistency with OG version ). Felt it also belonged due to the abundance of duskblades and its insta ward clear passive as well as sweeping fruit.

BurakkuRozu92 votes

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure almost every jungler, tank or dueler, was viable pre-scuttle change.

Bewitching Senna2 votes

Sej is decent. https://imgur.com/a/9AdL9qY d-decent. [sg-soraka]

exiledFromBadmen2 votes

Came here to say this. Sejuani is not decent right now, especially after seeing some pro play (and more nerfs).

ZenithEevee2 votes

Wouldn't this create the problem of the tank item being less useful?

I understand a bit of what and why. It allows tanks to do better in the jungle

But after the jungle farming phase, Or you pick a more gank-friendly jungler (Like warwick), Having an item that's anti-jungle seems like it'd be a trade-out item.

Wouldn't it be better for it to have a lesser sapping barbs effect on Champions?

TheSingularity1 votes

What you gain after the jungling phase is primarily from the health% bonus (the faster clearing also means you can grab those few cheeky camps on the way to group a bit quicker). So essentially this stops champions like jax/yi from buying it because if they want full value out of it. THEY MUST! build tank if they want to get full use of this item (like infinity edge and crit, you can't just buy IE then buy no crit)

The issue with having a sapping barbs effect on champs, IMO anyway is that as a tank you're there to offer CC and front line face tanking. You're not there for the damage (for the most part anyway). A tank should have just enough dmg that they'll kill you if you ignore them, adding a passive that is a mini thornmail when bramble vest/thornmail already exist will be extremely problematic especially on rammus (who riot will nerf because they nerf champs b4 items)

Spoofghoul1 votes

I think that would be ok depending on how much of an effect it has

I am all for these kinds of interactions, because they force more decision making and give reasons to not attack a tank This has the beneficial effect of not directly increasing a tanks damage unless you attack them and continue to do so As a result, if you not want to take that damage then you do not attack that tank. Which means said tank lives longer not because of tank stats but because it was not beneficial to attack them in the first place.

This was how tanks worked historically, it was a waste to try and kill them, you could not do it quick enough before you died yourself, let alone do it on your own in a 1v1 which led to some problems, well more like whining assassins and skirmishers.

Right now it doesn't matter as mr tank dies about as fast as anyone else so if you can hit him you just do it since there are no consequences and in 1v1 scenario's they are utterly pointless atm

Not that they ever had much chance to kill you it still took a long time but if you kept slapping each other they would likely win due to their bulk but then again you could just dash and blink away so no big deal.

I think stuff like this where attacking a tank punished you with damage, cc or other debuffs is a way to make tanks beefier in teamfights and more manageable in 1v1's Since there would be other consequences

Iręlía2 votes

I REMEMBER BUYING THIS ITEM! Ooooh I would love it if it was brought back. Was a good niche item.

I used niche incorrectly here, I meant not well remembered for.

LuaDotExe1 votes

In my opinion, it's less-so about the fact that they're jungling tanks and more-so about what they bring to the table and what the meta wants. From what I've seen, it's always just been the issue of specific tanks getting out of hand, meaning it's probably better to just buff individual tanks that are struggling. For example, Sejuani, Rammus, and Zac are the ones who've been getting out-of-hand, with picks like Nautilus and Amumu never seeing the light of day. Because of their recent buffs, however, I'm pretty sure they'll finally be seen as a decent pick in the jungle (and it definitely felt really good to play Naut that one time I tried it out in a full 5v5 custom game against some nerds. I've also been spamming Amumu in Nexus Blitz, but I don't really count that as viable for my argument because it's Nexus Blitz and not standard PVP).

Not to mention, the majority of tanks are just out of fashion at the moment due to the meta.

TL;DR: I think individual buffs to struggling tanks is better.

TheSingularity2 votes

Through season 6 and 7 nautilus was extremely problematic in top/bot in pro play and his E was gradually gutted over those 2 years. Until it was weaker than its buffed state and with no compensation to his nerfed w Maokai was just as problematic in seasons 4/5/6 until riot gutted him as well.

We see/saw similar patterns with poppy, sion and shen albeit in top lane. (Sion did get buffed recently but was nerfed originally due to his mid/top performance in pro play)

Buffing any of these tanks for the jungle risks breaking them in lanes

With just this one item we can better dictate the strength of all tanks in the jungle. And just the jungle

LuaDotExe1 votes

Yes, but, as Riot's recently done with the Nautilus buffs, you can buff someome's jungle while leaving their laning presence untouched (IE: incoming buffs to Wukong's attack speed, which helps a lot in the jungle but isn't so relevant in lane).

TheSingularity1 votes

Tbh have tested the naut changes both in jg/top. They help him significantly more in top lane than they do in the jungle. As they allow him to trade more and be more reactive to the enemy laner and the lower scaling doesn't mean much in lane. His clear is slightly healthier (less likely to get caught below 1/2 health) but is as slow as it's been since s5 and the changes weakened his ability to contest scuttle crab (less upfront shielding) which is a really big deal given scuttles make or break a game (vision+gold+xp).

The change would fix not only his clear speed, but the clear speed of everyone else again, without having to buff any other dmg. Due to the nauture of naut's kit, buffing his W/E dmg will make him a monster in top lane as would buffing his attack speed (more W procs in lane)

Alzon1 votes

This solution comes with the delicious side effect of removing the abomination that is Cinderhulk Jax from the game.

The obvious concern is the ward. For one, Quill Coat must not be purchasable alongside a support gold income item, or we’d see supports abusing Smite. Another is Lee Sin. I can see Lee sitting on Quill Coat and building Warrior enchant.

To fix this, Quill Coat itself could possibly only regenerate the ward when at base, with the upgrade also refreshing on takedowns. That way, Lee Sin would have to completely give up his dueling strength for a reliable early ward item. Another fix for this could be removal of the CDR, so he has to sacrifice even more. Some people would still rush it on him, but it’s a huge tradeoff.

TheSingularity2 votes

Yeah some1 else bought up the ward. Kept it in purely for consistency sake with the OG item. But would be happy for it to be removed entirely. Oh, do note lee used to have access to golem+unlimited sight wards XD What horrid times these used to be haha

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

A lot champions actually have special interactions with the jungle, like certain % health damage spells being capped against monsters. So why not leave the items alone and just use special jungle interaction to balance the champions?

For example I think Soraka jungle would be pretty funny if her Q would deal additional damage to monsters and if Rejuvenation and her E would work on them too. Actually I think we could have a lot more jungle variety if Riot actually wanted. But that's a bit off topic. xD Anyway the point is you can balance champions for the jungle without changing their performance on lanes or vs champions.

I think bonus health is actually a very good universally useful stat for tank junglers and a lot of tanks even have health scaling, whereas quill coat was great for Rammus or against heavy physical damage but really bad if you actually needed MR. Why is cinderhulk so bad again? You kinda explained the history and then you skipped to your suggestion to remove it and to use quill coat instead but ... why? It's the solution to what exactly? What is "the tank jungler problem" and how do you prove that it requires item changes?

TheSingularity1 votes

whereas quill coat was great for Rammus or against heavy physical damage but really bad if you actually needed MR.

The armor on quill coat is targeted at reducing dmg taken from monsters and allowing you to better handle an invade (as almost all early game jg bullies are ad).

What is "the tank jungler problem" and how do you prove that it requires item changes?

The problem is clear speed and clear health. Will adress them together as one directly affects the other.

If we think of the fastest jungle clearers yi, graves, shyvana and udyr come to mind. They inherently have healthy clears as well even if we ignore cc/healing. Because killing a camp faster means you get hit less.

Since tank clears are slow, they're extremely easy to counter jungle and secure crabs from. Because they spend a majority of their time getting smashed by jg camps.

They're also extremely easy to invade because a majority of fhe time they're low (gromp, red and raptors decimate tanks early). And in turn easy to our pressue as you can gank more on a healthy clearing non-tank.

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

I can't agree with that since smite also heals you based on your maximum health and theitem 1039 effect gives quite a lot healing even if you clear a bit slower, you just need aoe damage which cinderhulk does give you. On top of that you have honey fruits that also heals based on max health.

Actually I think tanks clear really fast and healthy with cinderhulk, but before they have it they can struggle.

I always had the impression that cinderhulk is so good that you could just use it on any champion and have a decent clear.

TheSingularity1 votes

Actually I think tanks clear really fast and healthy with cinderhulk, but before they have it they can struggle.

Hence quill coat. Cinderhulk deals 12 - 29 (based on level) magic damage per second to everything. Quill coat deals 5% of their max health over 3 seconds. From quill coat: Blue/red buff takes 105 dmg every 3 seconds vs 36 dmg (immolate) Gromp takes 90 dmg over 3 seconds compared to 36 dmg (immolate) This 1000 gold item, provides better clear speeds than a cinderhulk upgrade and significantly more than a bami's cinder.

At every point in the game, this item even un-upgraded does a better job of providing a healthy clear than any of it's replacements. As even if the jungle monster increase in health, the percentage doesn't change meaning a jungle camp will always die within time X no matter what.

I can't agree with that since smite also heals you based on your maximum health and the effect gives quite a lot healing even if you clear a bit slower, you just need aoe damage which cinderhulk does give you. On top of that you have honey fruits that also heals based on max health

Quill coats gave slightly more healing per hit (about 5) than a smite and costs the same. Smite will heal you regardless of whether or not you buy talisman/machete. And golem upped that healing by 5/sec. The honey fruit isn't available early enough to mean anything. And most tanks have ample AOE dmg, the issue is single target dmg to clear buffs, gromp, crabs and dragons. I suppose if we still had that purple smite (AOE stun+dmg) things would be different in terms of clear speed. And since that item heals you based on how many things heal you, it's completely hopeless against 1/2 the camps you deal with as they're a single enemy

I always had the impression that cinderhulk is so good that you could just use it on any champion and have a decent clear.

It's decent imo. but compared to this bad boy: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_of_the_Ancient_Golem It's nothing at all. Jungle monsters are stronger than they were back then, so is dragon and so is every offensive champ in the game. Nautilus isn't even on statistical charts because no one uses him. Most other tanks sit near the bottom of the list or also don't even make it on.

SUCC Ghast1 votes

In theory this would be fine, but does the jungle item lose the "immolate" passive? If so then this might not be as viable as you may think. Considering Cinderhulk is normally build on tanks such as Amumu and Sej, these champions are up close and personal, meaning they get the Bami's Cinder damage nonstop. Taking away that extra bit of damage from them when they gank can be slightly problematic. Also, an issue with this could be other duelist junglers building this item for the health regen it provides. Imagine Yi, who already has his W for healing, now also heals passively off of camps, same with Warwick. If there was some way to make this anti-duelist jungler, then its a great idea if it doesn't get rid of "Immolate".

TheSingularity1 votes

The healing aspect in my proposal is removed. So they heal as much as anyone else as they get healing via smite (did say this in OP) As for the gank dmg. My response would be "they didn't need it back then, why do they need it now?"

SUCC Ghast1 votes

You did say it? Sorry to make you repeat it then. So now I'm lost to ask, would getting rid of Bami's Cinder damage, and the healing from the original item, really be a change for the better? It seems like to change it, tank junglers would end up losing more than they were left with with having to build the Bami's Cinder. "Immolate" is actually high value now, a few patches ago Riot made blue and red buff able to be killed without having them drop to 1 health and forcing an auto. Same with all camps, somebody who is a good clearer in the jungle uses it to last hit camps while moving to the next one, making it very good for clear time. This also doesn't require the monster to hit you, meaning you also get off more damage within those 3 seconds than the Quill Cloak. The initial proc, draw aggro, you get about 4-5 sunfire procs within the time it'll take the Quill Cloak to start becoming effective. They didn't need Bami's Cinder back then, but it is for sure a valuable item now.

TheSingularity1 votes

would getting rid of Bami's Cinder damage, and the healing from the original item, really be a change for the better?

So just gonna do a quick breakdown of what we lose and what we gain: We gain: 20-40 armour, a stronger clearing passive, a higher health percentage value, the ability to then buy a bami's cinder if we need more clearing power [we're locked out of an armour item since immolate doesn't stack] (and then an abyssal mask on top of that if we're really that desperate), 10% CDR (potentially)

What we lose: 100 health, a cheaper jg component (1000 gold vs 900 for bamis)

Riot made blue and red buff able to be killed without having them drop to 1 health and forcing an auto.

Since sapping barbs is a DOT, riot can do this anyway. So we can walk away when it hits 90ish health and it will die as we leave (as long as we don't reset the camp).

The initial proc, draw aggro, you get about 4-5 sunfire procs within the time it'll take the Quill Cloak to start becoming effective.

The initial proc doesn't happen until you draw that agro (cinderhulk turns off when you ain't fighting) so bami's will have a slight head start as quill needs the monster to hit me first, but probably 2-3 instead of 4-5. On top of that I will take slightly less damage.

They didn't need Bami's Cinder back then, but it is for sure a valuable item now.

If they still need it, they can grab a bamis and turn it into a sunfire later. It will still be viable and will be invaluable to have 2 AOE dmg items to jungle with (not to mention another armour option we currently don't have), and sunfire deals over double the damage of cinderhulk to champions and slightly less to monsters

Edit: And just what was said in OP "The item remains mostly unchanged but mana regen and hp regen has been removed (due to them being on standard smites)."

Aptest1 votes

Allow me to suggest a radical alternative.

The problem for tank junglers and also for tank top laners is inferior clear speed initially, and a clear speed gap which worsens as the game progresses.

Damage champions rush items which radically increase their clear speeds exponentially, whereas tank junlger items only increase clear speed mildly. This causes an expanding gap in clear speed, which progresses into increasing dueling and invading advantage (this is exuberated by the overall superior mobility of damage champions through both superior MS stat and lower CDs on traversal skills), and increasing gank opportunities.

We have a similar problem in top lane where late scaling champions can rush clear speed initially to get over a difficult laning phase through pushing power rush. This also allows scaling champions to contest with tanks early game and in doing so create an ecosystem where a tank top lane must be capable of winning VS a bruiser top laner 1v1 to be viable.

Both of these problems can be treated by the removal of the one item both of these groups rush, to accelerate their pushing/clearing power: Tiamat. This will radically equalize the clearing speeds of tanks and damage champions, by inhibiting the ability of damage champions to AOE camps.

BlinkZZ1821 votes

{quoted}

Allow me to suggest a radical alternative.

The problem for tank junglers and also for tank top laners is inferior clear speed initially, and a clear speed gap which worsens as the game progresses.

Damage champions rush items which radically increase their clear speeds exponentially, whereas tank junlger items only increase clear speed mildly. This causes an expanding gap in clear speed, which progresses into increasing dueling and invading advantage (this is exuberated by the overall superior mobility of damage champions through both superior MS stat and lower CDs on traversal skills), and increasing gank opportunities.

We have a similar problem in top lane where late scaling champions can rush clear speed initially to get over a difficult laning phase through pushing power rush. This also allows scaling champions to contest with tanks early game and in doing so create an ecosystem where a tank top lane must be capable of winning VS a bruiser top laner 1v1 to be viable.

Both of these problems can be treated by the removal of the one item both of these groups rush, to accelerate their pushing/clearing power: Tiamat. This will radically equalize the clearing speeds of tanks and damage champions, by inhibiting the ability of damage champions to AOE camps.

DrMundo Chogath Garen Maokai Malphite Ornn Sion Shen Urgot Of all these tanks that you will see at top lane, only Shen sometimes rush tiamat. All standard top lane tanks have ok clear speed (except for shen). And tanks do not have to win 1v1 against a bruiser in order to be in top lane, you have every little possibility winning something liek Darius/Yorick/Trundle/Urgot/ as a tank without the interference of jungle. Top lane tanks exist because they are very economic. They can contribute to teammate flights with CC and utility even if they are a little behind in gold.

BlinkZZ1821 votes

From the first glance I can tell this item is way stronger than cinderhulk. Please remove the addtional 20 armor from Quill coat and the upgraded jungle item. Even though tank is my favourite class and I would like this change to happen, but I do foresee the possibility of bringing tank top laners to jungle with the existence of this item.

Shen Sion Chogath and a few other tanks can already appear in more than one lane. If they become viable and successful in jungle, it creates some BP phase advantage if you pick these champions first hand, as you can decide where they get to go later until you see the enemy picks.

TheSingularity1 votes

That's kind of the point. To make all tanks viable here. And you can do the whole roll swap thing with tonnes of champions already. And all 3 of these tanks have been prominent jungle picks in the past. The only one I see as a potential problem is cho, but he's already a balance nightmare so wat else is new? They didn't break the game then. And with how much anti tank is in the game, I doubt they'll break it now.

Remember your not buying both bamis and quil. You're getting 20 armor instead of 200 health early on. Which will have the down side of leaving you open to the likes of eve, elise, nid and ekko.

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