Repairing the tank class.

TheSingularity·11/16/2018, 1:14:23 AM·25 votes·12,563 views

The tank class has been a problematic class to balance and keep in a relevant but not overbearing state. They're then a rather controversial class, almost on par with assassins depending on who you talk to given their relatively low skill floor and high reward to risk ratio. Unfortunately since tanks are not part of Riot's skin sales champion group, for example lee sin, yasuo or ahri, they see minimal attention unless absolutely necessary.

A good thing to establish is what a tank truly is, as I've run into quite a few people who classify tanks as they are in MMORPG's, as a champion with allot of health or one that's hard to kill being the common 3. This simply isn't the case. By riot's class classifications tanks are most accurately described as beefy melee champions who sacrifice damage in exchange for powerful crowd control. The clearest different is between tanks and juggernauts. Both beefy, but they have very different tools. Based again on riots classifications, we're talking about these guys: Alistar Amumu Braum Galio Gnar Gragas Leona Malphite Maokai Nautilus Nunu Ornn Poppy Rammus Sejuani Shen Sion Skarner TahmKench Taric Zac

Through this massive wall of text I have a few goals in mind:

  1. Describe what I view to be an optimal and balanced tank
  2. Address common concerns/complaints about the tank class
  3. Address times where tanks were overbearing
  4. Describe the current external factors negatively affecting the tank class
  5. Address something wrong with tank stat allocation
  6. Assess every tank and suggest changes based on their current state
  7. Assess tank items and offer suggestions if necessary
  8. Assess the resolve tree and offer suggestions if necessary

1. Describe what I view to be an optimal and balanced tank All tanks generally have a few traits shared between them: their innate durability, defensive stat ratios on spells and then a solid crowd control arsenal, often 2-4 reliable spells. Now a few tanks don't fit this as closely as others, being shen, rammus and taric. A tank needs to achieve 4 things in a balanced situation in order to be considered effective:

  1. be durable
  2. have effective tools to support ones team (so usually reliable CC)
  3. deal just enough damage so that they can function somewhat independently.
  4. as a result they should be team reliant unless drastically ahead. By achieving these 4 goals they then lack the opposite, this is what makes them different to say a juggernaut like darius or a skirmisher like yi.

2. Address common concerns/complaints about the tank class There're 2 predominant concerns I've seen pop up, and they're the damage output of certain tanks and the possibility of them becoming unkillable behemoths. The first one I will support, as I believe certain tanks are definitely dealing too much damage for no investment however damage to an extent, is required for any champion to function. The second I doubt will occur, as allot of things will have to happen and also go wrong for us to end up with tanks that can't be killed by anything. > A big problem is the removal of MR runes, as most champions took them but didn't recieve MR buffs like they did armor buffs in patch 7.22. A magic resist buff could be in order for mages/marksman. Hesitant on giving it to other classes as mages/marksman are generally (so not all of them) easier to catch and pop. Another solution is to reduce the damage:beef ratio of certain tanks, namely amumu, gragas and sion.

3. Address times where tanks were overbearing I think back to season 5 for OP tanks, the reign of cinderhulk sejuani. During this time sejuani, zac and maokai really were stupendously powerful and overbearing. However many bring up "tank" metas that were really just busted champions abusing their obscene base damage with beefier builds. A few examples I've been given are: the juggernaut meta of season 5 worlds, the bruiser assassin meta, the tank stall meta of season 6. Unfortunately these metas mostly involved juggernauts, assassins and fighters abusing their obscenely high base or damage stacking (eg nasus) by building tanky, rather than tanks themselves being the problem.

4. Describe the current non-tank factors affecting the class The biggest factor in tank balance is pro play. If we look back in time, Riot has an awful history of crushing tanks purely for pro play. Maokai relentless nerfs to his entire kit over several years, and became a slight improvement with his ult rework Nautilus Riot decided to move power from his shield into his E. This made him an AFK waveclear machine in top lane. He was also relentlessly nerfed over the course of the year. Sejuani After giving her the most CC spells in the game, sej became a monster in pro play and has recieved nerfs because of it. And now she's losing CC... for damage... Shen RIP. I think most are familiar with what riot has done to this poor champion. TahmKench Recently nerfed purely to make pro play less safe and more exciting. Zac Nerfed in season 3 due to his power then again post rework due to pro play performance with a small compensation buff. Most of these champions were gutted and left to rot, some sneaking into the meta as it changes. That's the difference between pro and casual play. Utility breaks a tank in pro play, innate stats break them in casual play. The easiest solutions for shen, zac, sej and naut are reverts (so we change nauts' W to pre 5.5 values).

Across all levels of play, runes and new items are also a factor. Conqueror is an obscenely powerful rune, overbearingly so allowing champions to shred tanks with zero anti tank investment. With "cut down" also available for a boost. We've then seen the addition of 2 lethality items; edge of night and duskblade as well as the recent infinity edge change. With rageblade then in the game, that is an obscene amount of true damage that can be accessed. A full lethality/pen build, can shred a full armor nautilus down to under 80 armor, and then deal 4500 in a fight lasting until his ult damage procs+ignite. That's enough to kill 2 squishies. That's without conqueror/cut down, no BOTRK and without full cleaver stacks at the start of the combo. That is almost enough to one shot a tank. (More than happy to link the vid and offer more detail if wanted) A common point I see is "zed wasted R on tank". But that isn't the problem, the problem is that zed even came close to killing a full build tank lategame. I stopped attacking after R dmg proced, in game the zed could always keep going A more minor, but frustrating issue is cleaver synergy with darius/graves, who can almost instantly stack it with no efffort at all. I feel these interactions are unhealthy and could use changes.

5. Address something wrong with tank stat allocation One thing I have noticed, is that tanks pay for their spells with their base stats. For example, nautilus, ornn, shen, skarner, maokai and sion. Pay for their shields by having less base HP than amumu, nunu and zac to name a few. Zac, taric, tahm pay for their healing spells by having less base HP regen than almost every other tank. Sejuani pays for her passive by having less MR and armor. IMO, what's the point of giving champions specific kits to make them specialize in something, and then nerfing them for it? Because we then have a double standard compared to other classes. Where jhin for example, sacrifices almost nothing stat wise for his obscenely powerful auto attack enhancement. Vlad, despite having stronger healing capabilities has better and more reliable health regen than zac after a few levels. Tryndamere, despite having his crit passive has higher AD than shyvana at every stage, despie shyv having relatively garbage ratios and no pre 6 CC. This pattern goes on and on. I will admit I haven't checked everyone, so there are likely quite a few champions who do have a trade off akin to the tank class.

**6. Assess tank items and offer suggestions if necessary ** Over the years tanks have lost 850 HP and 55 armor due to item nerfs. Tanks also lack a big boi item, like rabadons, tri force or infinity edge. The game has then seen the addition of several armor removal items and an obscene abundance of true damage. As a tank main, I want powerful items, I want expensive items. But riot has been pushing this "cheaper and weaker is better" change pattern for a very long time. Mostly these are health and armor increases, as tanks have magic resist options in spades. Some of these changes may seem crazy, however the goal is to restore them to a state closer to their former glory.

item 3001 Health increased to 400, cost increased to 3100 item 3194 Removed or reworked: DPS mages are supposed to COUNTER! tanks. An item than can't be countered (unlike thornmail) that in turn counters DPS mages is unhealthy in design. Perhaps make it a shield enhancing item. Or maybe it offers DMG for bonus MR or bouns armor, which ever is highest. The bonus part prevent abuse by other classes. item 3193 Armor and magic resist increased to 50, cost increased to 2700 item 3190 No changes item 1401 item 1413 Recipe changed to: Respective smite+item 3751 +item 1029. Cost increased to 2800. Stats changed: Now grants 300 HP, 15 armor, +20% bonus health. From 300 health, +15% bonus health. item 3143 Cost increased to 3000-3100. Now grants 500 HP and 90 armor. item 3800 No changes item 3742 No changes item 3065 HP increased to 500, cost increased to 2900 item 3068 No changes item 3075 Armor increased to 100 from 80, cost increased to 3100 item 3083 Cost increased to 2900, now grants 1000 HP item 3110 No changes I left Sunfire cape and deadmans alone because they are common buys on juggernauts, and I didn't want to break them as a class. I was unsure on righteous glory and frozen heart.

7. Assess the resolve tree and offer suggestions if necessary The resolve tree, is meant to be the tank tree. Yet almost half of them offer an offensive boost being: grasp, aftershock, demolish, chrysalis (shield bash) and unflinching. Then one that is beyond useless and almost never used, font of life. If we want damage we have domination, precision and sorcery. So I really feel this should be purely defensive boosts. http://abccbaandy.github.io/league-S4mastery-calc/#dGkhjhBvd Look at that defense tree. Just pure beef enhancement. A single mastery on that page, grants more health than crysalis and overgrowth combined. That is what the resolve tree should be trying to be. A tank tree, not a "damage in disguise" tree So to change things up: existing keystones unchanged. Demolish: unchanged. New rune "courage of the colossus": when disabling an enemy champ (so using hard CC) you gain a shield equal to 5% of your max health. Font of life, removed and replaced by the new shield bash rune. Bone plating remains. Conditioning: now grants 5% bonus armor and magic resist, increases to 10% at 10 minutes. Second wind changed: Now increases all healing affects by 10% while below 25% health. Chrysalis: Grants 50 health, every take down adds an additional 50 health. Can occur up to 3 times for a total of 200 health. Final row: existing runes unchanged.

Why fix tanks? Why care? Because they're enablers. After they were toned down, I experienced the best meta of all time just before pre season 6. Tanks are viable so we need anti tanks (DPS or juggernauts usually) to counter them. We burst to counter DPS, we need heal/shield to help carries then we need tanks to protect everyone else. Remove tanks and you get what we've had for 3 years now, an obscene nuke meta where everything dies in 3 seconds. Every champ, with every build, in every role, was viable. For me at the very least, that's lol paradise

Gimme them thoughts of yours would love to have a discussion

Edit: Oh my forgot I cut out an entire section. More wall inbound Alistar Despite a rather unhealthy play pattern with a 100% point and click kit, he does have some degree of error in the combo timing and he trades more AOE CC (eg naut, malpite, ornn) for the reliable single target CC. If he did need nerfs, I'd hit his ult damage reduction value at rank 1 Amumu Currently plays more like a mage and is getting too much free value out of his kit. His Q hitbox needs a little bit of tuning, his passive should be changed to deal 10% of magic as true damage, instead of an additional 10% true damage (current) and his tantrum defensive value should start weaker and scale. Braum He's braum. After 3 patches of nerfs he's kinda just there? He needs a boost to his innate beef, perhaps a revert of his health nerf. Galio very weird spot, similar to pre rework. He's trapped between mage and tank, to please both audiences but fails to achieve either of them. I feel his ult is way to niche, and that he should be able to potentially ult wards (as they'd have to be pre placed. This would allow him to ult in lane or to set up some epic flanks. He's fine as he is but could use some refinement. Gnar Relatively weak right now, could probably use a buff to mega gnar's base spell damage (excluding R), and a compensatory nerf to the ratios. It's meant to be his stronger form and will avoid buffing his mini irritation form. Gragas Probably the one tank I take issue with. The issue is kit value: large hitbox, reliable damage spells with a rather ridiculous damage reduction. While his Q damage is identical to most tanks, it's one of few spells that can go through minions. Nerf Q base damage at early ranks, reduce damage reduction by 2% at all ranks and then: change W enemy max health value to gragas' max health value, reduce value to 5%. Leona Balanced at the moment. Rather telegraphed kit. A qol change could be allowing her to proc her passive on her own against monsters, potentially allowing her to jungle. Or perhaps she unlocks the ability to proc her passive at level 11? I feel she's more locked into support than other tanks. Malphite Meta dependent. He really doesn't get much wriggle room at the moment so I'd leave him alone since he's so volatile. As once the meta shifts he'll be back in the contest with ease. Maokai He could use a less point and click kit, perhaps make his twisted advance a skill shot? His ult could use allot of work, it's so slow and underwhelming. Oh suggestion: R Fury of the Forest: new First cast: Maokai roots himself in place and sends thorny brambles surging out in all directions, rooting+damaging champions they come into contact with, revealing and marking them as caught for the root duration. Second cast: Maokai brings his branches to a halt and hauls all "caught" enemies towards him. Stopping halfway between Maokai and the point at which they were caught. This cast prevents anymore champs from being caught. Damage: unchanged so 100/200/300. Will deal no damage on second cast. Will be pretty quick. Nautilus He's mostly fine. His W could use a base shield value buff at early levels to help him jungle. A bonus would be a max rank health ratio increase. Partly to make up for the silly nerf from years ago, and partly to bring back that juicy late game shield from season 4. You can't see any bias here can you? Good :P Nunu haven't seen/played enough to have a concrete opinion but his statistics seem pretty poor. He could use a base and scaling armor buff. Ornn His W hitbox needs to be fixed. He's breathing fire out of his mouth not out of his but, so it shouldn't hit me behind him. A Q missile speed increase would make him feel better but is unnecessary. Potentially move his damage around so it isn't all front loaded into his brittle proc? Poppy Personally would change her E to a skillshot or nerf her Q damage a tad. Her kit is almost purely a point and click stat stick and with her W it isn't overly difficult to get a wall slam combo. I just feel dirty when I play her because there's so little anyone can do. Rammus An admittedly very unhealthy champion but so niche that it isn't really a problem. He probably needs a rework to flesh him out a bit. Sejuani She needs a partial revert. Her rework gave her too much innate power, by making her the CC god with the most CC in the entire game. I would do the following: Winters wrath: unchanged, it's a fun and interesting spell. Permafrost: reverted. Glacial prison: reverted. This removes 1 hard CC spell and removes 1 CC component from her kit entirely (she has a displacement, slow, stun, stun+slow) We replaced E stun with a slow, and removed the ultimate secondary slow field. Making her way easier to balance between pro and casual play. Shen I honestly have no idea. Revert him completely? Remove and replace his ultimate? Maybe give him a kalista system so he can only TP to one pre determined champ at a time? Very tricky champ to fix. Sion He needs a nerf to his early game durability as well as his damage. Nerf low charge Q and point blank R Skarner In my opinion, crystal venom skarner was more flexible and more enjoyable. Because he wasn't locked to the jungle with his current passive. Crystal venom skarner came before spire skarner. So I would suggest a full revert and back to the drawing board. TahmKench His main issue is an oppressive attack pattern. He runs at you, and if you choose to fight you will lose the trade in most cases early on in top lane. Isn't a huge issue as you will outscale him as almost everyone however it's far from enjoyable to deal with. Not sure how I'd fix it. Taric A well balanced, high skillcap and floor support. I'd leave him alone. Zac similar problem to sejuani. I would also partially revert Zac as he gained a hard CC spell and a very power hungry ultimate which has made him a balance problem in pro play. The one aspect I am certain must go is his ultimate. His old ultimate was more useful than current, as you had more opportunities to displace enemies however was easier to balance due to the large room for error and the fact that he wasn't immune to CC during his R (when he is "unstoppable during R currently). I am unsure on the Q. Keeping it is great for jungle zac but horrid for top lane zac. Meanwhile old Q is fine but not great for both. I'd probably leave it alone and settle on R revert.

45 Comments

nGio11/16/2018, 6:04:30 PM2 votes

{quoted}

Zac similar problem to sejuani. I would also partially revert Zac as he gained a hard CC spell and a very power hungry ultimate which has made him a balance problem in pro play. The one aspect I am certain must go is his ultimate. His old ultimate was more useful than current, as you had more opportunities to displace enemies however was easier to balance due to the large room for error and the fact that he wasn't immune to CC during his R (when he is "unstoppable during R currently). I am unsure on the Q. Keeping it is great for jungle zac but horrid for top lane zac. Meanwhile old Q is fine but not great for both. I'd probably leave it alone and settle on R revert.

I do like his new Q, but he needs a full revert. Even if they revert the R, to keep the Q we will be sacrificing. For the Q R he gave up damage, sustain, and the ability to lane as the AP sustain bruiser god intended him to be. If they left the new Q in tact, they would probably need to keep his damage as absolute shit, which can't work in a lane. I do agree that his old ultimate was better, and his old Q was better in lane for ranged harass and reliable double Liandry's procs. He was 50-51% win rate at 1-2% pick rate for the majority of 2 years. I'd argue that there wasn't a more balanced champion on the roster, which made his rework a display of pure stupidity and incompetence, when champions that are too strong/too weak/old mechanics are ignored.

I like your idea of reverting Zac, Sej, and Shen. 99.9999% of us are playing solo queue with random allies, and I think that it's a shit move by Riot to basically dumpster these champions for us, because some organized pro Korean team needs secondary supports. I care more about how the game plays than how it looks, and I miss playing all 3 of these champs. It's time for Riot to just acknowledge that these champions were better before they started fucking with them, revert them, and work on modernizing the champions that need it.

MLDzXnRRR11/16/2018, 6:47:47 AM2 votes

Tanks were almost never problem in regular play, but optimal team composition in e-sports features many tanks, so you don't instalose, if you get caught from the fog of war. Tanks CAN'T be instabursted. They are NOT RISKY champions. They have UTILITY. They can TOWERDIVE, ENGAGE. You have way more strategical gameplay with tank than with other classes. How hard is to understand this? If tanks are good and you want to win, there is no reason to pick assassins or slayers; or fighters (if tanks are too good). Most mages will require several rotation midgame to kill a tank with stacked hp. The team with tanks and CC will destroy the enemy team midgame and lategame, if the tank team groups as 5 and rushes mid. Recently I played a game where the enemy Lee Sin was complaining all game, because our team had stun on every champion (we had Ashe adc ) and he couldn't do anything at all... The design of tanks falling off is intentional, because the game won't finish in a reasonable time, if both teams become unkillable.

SuffocateMeDaddy11/16/2018, 11:07:19 PM2 votes

Tanks in Pvp game will never ever function. They are inherently broken and cannot ever be balanced for simple reason. HUMANS HAVE BRAINS. You cannot put class into the game that relies on getting focused to be useful, and expect players to not ignore them. You have two absolutely terrible choices to make them viable. Either you overload them with CC and make them frustrating to play against, or you will overload their damage making them more useful than any other melee class.

Current state of tanks : Farm under turret, never die because you build full defense, be several thousand gold behind and still be more useful than your lane opponent, wait for deathball teamfights, win a game by one lucky ult.

Most overpowered state of tanks : Win laning phase by default against anyone who is not a tank thanks to unbearable base damages and extremely cheap build, oneshot enemy carry with your base damages, deathball teamfights.

Worst state of tanks : Be extremely useful in low elos because they cant play the game, get completely ignored by everyone past plat 5.

Tank mains should either accept that their class is unhealthy and Riot should rework them to function just like fighters AKA, if you are 50 Cs behind 3 kills down, you have no fucking business winning duels on level 9. OR tank mains should accept that their class is for escaping gold elo and nothing else.

YuGiHo11/16/2018, 1:04:16 PM2 votes

idk what u could do to make a tank viable so long as Darius exist in the state that he does with conqueror

JeaneGreene11/16/2018, 8:39:37 AM2 votes

IMO this is less of a problem with tanks and more of a problem with Riot’s balance theory. They want more exciting games, yet they take out strategy by nerfing tanks. If everyone got 30% damage reduction, but 30% cdr to balance it, the game would be a lot healthier. Fights would last longer and people could strategize in the middle of long fights.

no to toxic11/17/2018, 5:22:12 PM2 votes

Imagine writing this much text only for me to skip it and make this comment

Destello Azul11/16/2018, 9:55:47 AM1 votes

{quoted}

item 3193 Armor and magic resist increased to 50, cost increased to 2700 item 1401 item 1413 Recipe changed to: Respective smite+item 3751 +item 1029. Cost increased to 2800. Stats changed: Now grants 300 HP, 15 armor, +20% bonus health. From 300 health, +15% bonus health. item 3143 Cost increased to 3000-3100. Now grants 500 HP and 90 armor. item 3065 HP increased to 500, cost increased to 2900 item 3083 Cost increased to 2900, now grants 1000 HP

https://i.imgur.com/nXX2lg3.gif Are you seriously? Are you pissing of in the gold efficiency? NOPE, not allowed, FTFY.

item 3193 Armor and magic resist increased to 50, cost increased to 2800. item 1401 item 1413 Recipe changed to: Respective smite+item 3751 +item 1029. Cost increased to 2900. Stats changed: Now grants 300 HP, 15 armor, +20% bonus health. From 300 health, +15% bonus health. item 3143 Cost increased to 3300. Now grants 500 HP and 90 armor. item 3065 HP increased to 500, cost increased to 3000. item 3083 Cost increased to 3300, now grants 1000 HP.

Buff Riven Plz11/16/2018, 1:15:30 AM1 votes

[deleted]

Breezy Boyy11/16/2018, 3:29:50 PM1 votes

Full-heartedly agree.

On another note, I feel that Riot views not just tanks, but all defensive classes, including Enchanters, in the same light, that they supposedly make games less fun to watch, and less fun to play.

MagmusOverlord11/16/2018, 3:56:00 PM1 votes

I am not going to bother to read this post but the problem with tanks can be easily fixed. It's just that when they become balanced they become too reliable in pro play. League balacnes around pro and high elo. I understand what they are doing with the tanks iin pbe(decreasing CC which is the reason why they are so dominant in pro) and i kind of applaud them for it AS LONG AS IT WORKS. The last thing riot needs to do is remove cc and throw them in the gutter afterwards which makes the champion even more crappier.

Echo3s11/16/2018, 4:53:05 PM1 votes

Shen Shen player here, I think that in his current state he fairs pretty weak in lane, but once he gets going, he can become a dueling monster with insane peel and provide alot of safety for his team.

His main problems imo are his god awful base stats, and very, VERY bad csing under tower due to the low damage output of his q and slow early attack speed. If he doesn't get defensive items, he gets poked out pretty hard, and if he does, he risks not getting enough damage to waveclear until later in the phase.

I think the addition of the new rune shield bash will help out some of his problems, and remove any need to buff his defensive stats for now, although a bit of extra base health would be nice. I also think the new changes to turrets to make laning phase last longer will be helpful for him too, since it will make it safer for him to roam botside and save them or secure a kill. However, I believe he could use a little bit of extra base ad or base damage on his q at level 1, just to help him more consistently farm under turret when you get crapped on in lane, which is often.

The Goodest Boy11/16/2018, 10:15:13 PM1 votes

hey! i can tell you put a lot of work into this, and I gotta say that you provided almost entirely sound and reasonable arguments, with minimal "gg nerf this cancer" flaming. it was a very nice read :)

I've been thinking a lot lately about how shit riot's balance philosophy towards tanks in particular is. I agree 100% with what you said about giving up stats in tanks and preventing specialization. if a character has a passive that says "you get 10% more health than all other tanks" and then you nerf their base health to be 10% lower than all other tanks, what the fuck is the point of the passive???

I think what you said about metas is right. the shitty state of tanks right now, in my opinion is due to 2 main things:

absolutely braindead access to free damage through runes and some items, giving even full tanks obnoxious damage at some points in the game;

riots shit balance philosophy leading to huge cooldown/damage creep. tanks used to be balanced around their innate beefy-ness and mass amounts of CC, which was backed up by high base damages that could be accessed on significantly long cooldowns, leading to clear times when a tank would be able to hurt you. but the overall damage creep and literally stupid amounts of coolodwn reduction on every item has led to tanks having access to their high-base-damage-high-crowd-control abilities on such a low cooldown, some of them have become fucking burst machines. and thats not healthy for anyone. not to mention that a lot of them are barely tanks anymore.

and what does riot do about this? they say "huh, tanks are getting melted in seconds and seem to have become glorified bruisers. what shall we do??? oh, I know. lets buff their defensive spells without nerfing all the free damage within the game. now they'll be real tanks again, right????

....right.

and then theres the fact that riot just makes tanks seem so... boring. out of all the games classes, I'd argue that tanks have the least interesting item design. they could be so much cooler! but they're just so.... simple. righteous glory is cool, dead mans is cool, and on some champs gargoyles can be cool. but thats about it :(

i never personally liked playing tanks, save maybe pre-rework zac and current sion at times. otherwise, I could never really get excited about tanks as character, and I wasnt really sure why.

... but then, the reworked Nunu released. and I have to tell you... never in my time playing league have I had such a blast playing a character I thought I would fucking hate. Nunu is an absolute joy to play. but this made me ask myself: why? why was nuu specifically a tank I actually looked forward to playing?

and that experience playing nunu lead me to some discoveries. I think tanks, conceptually; as a class, should be balanced around the idea of having one or two simple, but extremely _fun _ and satisfying mechanics. I came to this philosophy after I looked at my favorite tanks. Post-rework Nunu, Sion, and Zac.

these guys have one main thing in common: they have fairly simple, but very flashy and fun, mechanics. Nunu has his W and R, Zac had his E (my favorite basic league spell of all time) and Sion had his Q and his R (my favorite ultimate league spell of all time.) If Riot took heed from these characters, I think tanks as a class could be a lot more popular.

FlameHalbrdOkido11/17/2018, 5:16:46 AM1 votes

I feel like part of the issue with current Galio can be kinda rooted in the current ult, i feel like it was made for LCS big plays and it goes to show as it really relies on a good team. But its also a reason why the rest of his kit would be nerfed b/c basically every other champ pay ALOT for having trans-map mobility

Ur Mao ult is WAY 2 similar to Zyra's. I think its fine that its slow, i mean tree roots aren't the fastest thing in real life are they? It would be nice if they gradually got a bit faster as the traveled tho, but the potential to catch and entire TEAM, is pretty powerful and not underwhelm at ALL. Even if u catch no one u still force and entire team to disengage, and enable ur team to chase and pick em off.

Ornn, when he is breathing fire his entire body heats up like a forge thats why. Nothing about nerfing his dmg and giving his unstoppable back?

Poppy, for Q, u could nerf the hammer dmg and respectively buff the eruption dmg.

Sej, I agree with you on most of ur points, but i'd like them see something interesting with E besides a slow, perhaps she creates some impassible terrain somehow? Works the same way current E does except instead of stunning the target it knocks the frost off them behind them and makes a small wall?

Shen definitely a tricky champ to fix due to his ult being soo iconic. But i think he's objectively better with the rework, its just that due to his ult they have to keep him relatively weak.

Correct with Skarner tho i think

Zac, i think current Q should be kept and a middle ground needs to be found for the ults

ÈvilMorty11/17/2018, 7:22:19 AM1 votes

I agree with most of what you said, its on point. My issue with tanks is that this season damage has been through the roof. Past the 3 item mark, I dont feel like tank items actually do anything. The armor and mr scaling is just weird like once you hit around 60-70%ish dmg reduction then thats it, buying more tank items after 3 maybe 4 just feels pointless, it just stops the feeling like your actually tanky, meanwhile every other role especially adc gets items/runes that deal true damage and ignore half of tanks armor. Hell late game as a tank its go in engage maybe get one-two spells off then insta killed. Tanks only get one small window of feeling like they are tanky, the 25-35min mark when they have 2-3 tank items and other roles dont have their tank shredder items yet. After that window, again feels like absolute shit for a tank player.

What I would personally do is fix the armor mr scaling just slightly by increasing the amount of dmg% reduction armor/mr gives you. Then I would personally cut all true damage abilities/runes by about 10-15%. See how it goes from there.

DM For Rat Facts11/16/2018, 3:15:07 PM1 votes

Not gonna lie I think league should fall into rock paper scissors (exclusively in lane) and have about 25% room to outplay. Tanks don't win many match ups, even Jax is beating them nowadays. give them winning matchups so playing tanks top isn't just farming until 25 and then engaging and hoping your adc and mid aren't brain dead.

Or buff sejuani's damage, that works too

Frosted Tips11/16/2018, 2:32:06 AM1 votes

Some items seem ok but that Cinderhulk buff is not ok. Yes it is more expensive, but it is the expense went up 1 to 1 with the gold efficiency of cloth armor, and you buffed the bonus health passive while buffing multiple tank items bonus health. The armor would make you take almost 0 damage in the jungle and would be more than enough to warrant the price increase without the bonus Health buff.

Done2511/16/2018, 3:59:07 AM1 votes

Tbh I think the best way to buff tank (Vanguard) type champions as a whole is to put more emphasis on AoE damage and shorter cooldowns.

Take Maokai and Amumu for example. Most of their damage is in the form of AoE. This means they remain a high threat in team fight without the need to make their damage so obscene that they just walk up with 200 armor to the ADC and one shot them with zero counterplay.

A bad example of an incoming change is Riot adding +200 damage to Sejuani's E. Sej is a bad tank because nearly all of her damage is single target burst. QaWaEaRa with her doing a raw single target 40% max HP burst at the tail end of her combo via E>R. When Sej is strong her passive literally allows her to do what I described before. Run at the ADC with 300+ armor. Burst combo. Then hope the ADC drops dead because she's now useless.

Iota Theta11/16/2018, 4:20:18 AM1 votes

So, few minor formatting nitpicks...when you describe the lethality/pen build, perhaps you should mention Zed at the start of that example, as I didn’t see him mentioned until after your said you’d link the video (I’m curious about this now) and was a little confused trying to picture the situation until the criticism of “zed wasted R on a tank”.

I was slightly bummed that you didn’t include the point:

Assess every tank and suggest changes based on their current state

I figured it was probably a lot, so I understand, just was looking forward to that one.

All-in-all, an excellent post overall, and it’s tough to find a spot I disagree. I appreciate the mention of CotC in the runes, as I desperately miss that rune and personally favored it over Aftershock merely cause of the damage aspect.

The Cinderhulk change is..odd, I will admit. In a game where aggressive junglers are at an edge and most junglers in general need to complete their item, it hurts to delay that spike for 15 armour unless there are some jungle meta shifts as well, compared to the AP or AD junglers who will get their damage jungle item for less gold and generally faster.

P.s. as an old professor of mine would say, Quick sidebar, best moment of tanking for me in a long time: my Maokai match on aram with Abyssal, Spirit Visage, Gargoyle, Warmogs, Tabi, and Glacial Shroud, zoning off the enemy Brand and Zilean for a good while with Q and roots, until the enemy Shyvana and Renekton came to help them. We lost cause we couldn’t take those 4 down completely to push to their base, but man that was a blast in tanking.

Edit: just saw you edited the one part back in gleeful clapping

Edit2: I plan on coming back and commenting on some of the tanks to the best of my knowledge, especially Malphite (I’m sure a good number have seen my comments on Ornn lately), but it is almost midnight for me and gotta work in the morning. So I will be back!

Summary of opinion on Malphite: needs a full VGU. I’ll go into this when I have time in the morning.

Side note: Nunu are a lot of fun and have some strong clears and objective power with Q. His E snowballs are a little underwhelming in the buildup to “Willump’s turn”, maybe a slow? It could be my build or something with me but it feels tough to keep enemies in range to get the root.

Edit: i missed that there was a slow on it. Whoops.

LemurMonster11/16/2018, 7:32:02 AM1 votes

Gnar isn't a Tank.

Even11/16/2018, 8:21:45 AM1 votes

Gnar does not sacrifice damage, and Skarner was meant to be a juggernaut, but was terribly executed.