Is there even going to be a point to building health this preseason?

TheLittlestLulu·Nov 7, 2015·129 votes·6,619 views

I thought the whole point of getting health was to make yourself harder to kill, not to make yourself take more damage.

129 Comments

Shac NorrisNov 7, 201524 votes

LOL so true

new meta stack 5 item 3512

KrinuNov 7, 20151 votes

Nah, you need a GA in there, too.

Shac NorrisNov 7, 20158 votes

Screw ga! ;)

Irelia BotNov 7, 201522 votes

better question

Is there even going to be a reason to play this preseason?

FadedpfNov 7, 20156 votes

BabyRage

Gregor GysiNov 7, 20159 votes

New champ select, new champion (Rito said 1 champion is going to be released this year), new matchmaking, new masteries, jungle changes and.. I probably forgot something. This preseason is WAY better than Mundo/Shyv preseason. Goddamn, that was boring AF.

qwertykingNov 7, 20154 votes

New support items.

Sassmast3rNov 7, 20151 votes

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait... Did you just say that Riot only plans on releasing 1 CHAMPION in Season 6?!? Holy shit that champion better be spectacular, if I have to wait all season 6 to get this apparent beast of a champion then I will if you're saying Illaoi is the only one being released!

Gregor GysiNov 7, 20158 votes

{quoted}

new champion (Rito said 1 champion is going to be released this year)

I'm pretty damn sure that I didn't say that, lol? According to my knowledge this is still 2k15 so 'this year' seems to imply 2015. However, it's right that I didn't phrase it that well, it would've been better to say 'Rito said 1 more champion is going to be released this year'.

Dunkrius2gNov 7, 201520 votes

Nah we just gotta stack them armor item 3110 item 3025 item 3075 item 3047 and a item 3026

YumaS2AstralNov 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Nah we just gotta stack them armor and a

And get killed by the AP champions? (I didn't said mages because many AP champions are bruisers, assassins and there is also Corki which will do a lot of magic damage with his new kit)

Dunkrius2gNov 7, 20154 votes

then we gotta stack them mr item 3001 item 3174 item 1323 item 3091 item 3112 item 3026 item 3512

MyTeamIsAwsomeNov 7, 201523 votes

item 3112 is very affective on summoners rift. I always rush it first item!

chipi99Nov 7, 201511 votes

item 2050 _

Demented GagNov 7, 20158 votes

item 3137 item 3184 item 3460 item 3159 item 3348 item 3104 item 2054 Is my usual build path.

RasCaelestisNov 8, 20152 votes

I like that build, but I prefer this on every champion.
item 3200 item 3196 item 3197 item 3198 item 3599 item 3901 item 3903 item 3902 You can get all of them at once if you do things correctly.

Slightly unrelated, what is this thing? item 3744

Tis a nice dayNov 7, 201545 votes

Let me rephrase his build. item 3047 item 2043

Pinkward for dem pesky Nidalee spears.

morris1Nov 7, 201510 votes

Dodge chance op.

BenParadoxNov 7, 20153 votes

That would work, except Lord Dominic's Regards ignores 40% of bonus armor AND has the Giant Slayer passive. I personally think they should've made the Armor busting and Health busting items build into separate items instead, so tanks stand a chance.

qetzelNov 7, 20152 votes

I think they wanted the effectiveness of the new LW to be similar to the old one against tanks. Given the switch to bonus armour, against a mid game tank it would have to be 70% to do the same thing, I think. That is a bit much, and would put people off buying armour items (and rightly so). Adding the health difference solves this problem somewhat.

The most important thing this change does is gives LW an extra balance lever against squishies (increase the heath difference required if it is too strong) without affecting its overall effectiveness against tanks.

My Waifu VanillaNov 8, 20151 votes

Current LW will never get any tank below 50% physical damage DR due to you only busting through all the armor that doesn't mean anything anyway since it is getting destroyed by diminishing returns anyway.

qetzelNov 8, 20152 votes

That isn't how armour works. Let us imagine there is something dealing a constant amount of damage per second. Say 100 DPS to make calculations easier. Say you have 1000 health and 100 armour. This again makes calculations easier.

If you had no armour then the damage would take 10 seconds to kill you. Damage reduction is 0.5 due to armour. You take half as much damage, so the amount of time it takes the damage source to kill you is 20 seconds. 100 armour increases the amount of time you live by 10 seconds.

If you had 1000 health and 200 armour then your damage reduction would be 0.333333333. It would therefore take the damage source 30 seconds to kill you. The extra 100 armour increases the time you live by 10 seconds.

Every point of armour is as effective as every other point. Don't work with percents. They are confusing. Think of it as every point of armour increases your effective health against physical damage by 1%.

Handy.

Ariel the CruelNov 8, 20151 votes

Think of it as every point of armour increases your effective health against physical damage by 1%.

That would mean every 100 armor would be a 100% increase. However, The Defense system is set up so every 100 armor gives 50% more damage reduction. 100 Armor = 50% Reduction 200 Armor = 75% Reduction 300 Armor = 87.5% Reduction 400 Armor = 93.75 500 Armor = 96.875 600 Armor = 98.4375 And so on.

The point Chocola was making (if I understood it correctly) was that, due to diminishing returns, the effective value of that reduction on 600 armor is less than on 100 armor. If we round up to 50% shred from last whisper (to simplify the math). 100 -> 50 = 25% loss 600 -> 300 = 10.9375% loss

Granted you need large amounts of Armor to make a noticeable difference, it is still technically true.

qetzelNov 8, 20151 votes

That is untrue. The formula for damage taken is 100/(100+armour) 100 armour = 100/200 = 0.5 200 armour = 100/300 = 0.333333333333333333etc 300 armour = 100/400 = 0.25 and so on. Then working out how long you survive against a given damage source tells you that there are no diminishing returns. 100 armour gives you 2x the life you would have with no armour. 200 armour gives you 3x

Going from 100 armour to 50 armour means your life goes from 2x to 1.5x. A measure of the value of the penetration is 0.25 (difference over original armour) Going from 200 armour to 100 armour means your life goes from 3x to 2x. The value of the penetration is 0.33333333 Going from 300 to 150, your life goes from 4x to 2.5x. The value of the penetration is 0.375.

The more armour you have, the more value the LW has.

Ariel the CruelNov 8, 20151 votes

Assuming I'm using your math correctly. . .

100 armor = 100/200 = 0.5 050 armor = 100/150 = 0.66666666... Difference = 0.1666666... more damage

300 armor = 100/400 = 0.25 150 armor = 100/250 = 0.4 Difference = 0.15 more damage

600 armor = 100/700 = 0.1428571428571429 300 Armor = 100/400 = 0.25 Difference = 0.1071428571428571 more damage

The value still shows drop off. But the drop off is still marginal until large values are used.

qetzelNov 8, 20151 votes

Using ratios can get confusing. It is much easier working in the absolute values of time taken to kill, and then switching to ratios at the end.

Percentages are evil. Work with normal numbers if you can.

EDIT: I think I have found an example of a mistake similar to yours that makes it look obvious.

Say a man runs a 100 meters, turns around and runs back. The first 100 meters takes him 10 seconds, but he injures himself at the other end, so the second half takes 100 seconds. His average speed = distance/time = 200/110 = 1.82 meters per second. That is how I am doing the calculations.

If I were to do a mistake similar to yours I might say that his speed on the first half is 10ms-1 and on the second half is 1ms-1, giving an average speed of 5.5 meters per second.

While this isn't the same mistake that you made, it is similar. I think... Maybe?

Ariel the CruelNov 9, 20151 votes

I applied the same damage taken calculation in the second post you used (far as I can tell).

100 armor = you take 0.5 of every 1 damage. 50 Armor = you take 0.66666666...... of every 1 damage. 0.66666666 - 0.5 = 0.1666666. So by loosing that 50 armor, you take 0.1666666 more damage from every 1 point of damage.

Then from the low value, we compare a high value.

600 armor = you take 0.1428571428571429 of every 1 damage. 300 armor = you take 0.25 of every 1 damage. By losing 300 armor, you take 0.1071428571428571 more damage from every 1 point of damage.

Shredding 50% of 100 armor results in a higher damage increase than shredding 50% of 600 armor.

Unless I'm using the math wrong, this is the interpretation I end up with.

If I were to do a mistake similar to yours. . .

10ms-1 = 10(meters X Seconds)-1 = 10(1000)-1 = 10000-1 = 9999 1ms-1 = 1(meters X Seconds)-1 = 1(10000)-1 = 10000-1 = 9999

10ms-1 = 10(meters/second)-1 = 10(10)-1 = 100-1 = 99 1ms-1 = 1(meters/second)-1 = 1(1)-1 = 1-1 = 0

. . . What?

Juju131313Nov 9, 20151 votes

League, subtly encouraging us to do math since April 10th, 2009. Teemo

yukumariNov 7, 201513 votes

Well Blade's passive is getting nerfed so...At least there's that?

BergkNov 7, 201529 votes

Silver Bolts (W): Base damage of 20/30/40/50/60 removed % of max health damage increased to 6/7.5/9/10.5/12% from 4/5/6/7/8% New minimum damage vs all targets added - 40/60/80/100/120

2% current health physical-dmg lost from BOTRK. But replaced with +4% max HP TRUE damage....

TraxinatorNov 7, 201526 votes

{quoted} 2% current health physical-dmg lost from BOTRK. But replaced with +4% max HP TRUE damage....

Well that's 2% current HP per auto, while the 4% max HP true damage is every 3 autos.

So you're actually losing 6% current HP for each 4% max HP gained.

P.S. I'm not saying that I like the changes, I'm just stating the facts.

BergkNov 7, 201515 votes

Remember each successive hit of botrk decreases in damage than the previous, because the current hp has decreased. So 3 procs of BOTRK in a row wouldn't do 6% current. And you have to factor in armor because BOTRK is physical dmg and Silver bolts is true dmg.

(2% current HP) x [100 ÷ (100 + A)] + (2% current HP) x [100 ÷ (100 + A)] + (2% current HP) x [100 ÷ (100 + A)] < 4% max HP

where A = target's current armor value

FirestartertotNov 7, 20151 votes

also vayne's is true damage

BergkNov 7, 20154 votes

i said that...

qetzelNov 7, 20155 votes

Also remember that the flat damage is getting removed. It makes a difference of a couple of hundred health in the late game, which is not too small to be ignored.

Guy Fox TeemoNov 7, 20152 votes

You do realize they removed the base damage right....

PerishSoftlyNov 8, 20151 votes

It starts out-damaging its original values at max rank when the target has over 1500 hp. So....pretty much anyone who actually built any health item at all.

Guy Fox TeemoNov 8, 20151 votes

It starts out damaging when the target reach's 2000 health, by which that time, it's a bonus 20 true damage

thumbnail9Nov 7, 20157 votes

What sucks is Armor and Magic res are no longer good by themselves like in season 2 so there is literally no way to stop yourself from taking the extra 15% damage. Every top laner in the god damn game will take 15% more damage.

What is even worse is carry top laners have 0 way to separate HP from their builds now since all the juggernaut rework items. You build BC, 15%; gauge, 15%; frozen mallet, 15%; T-force, 9.6%; Titanic, 15%; hell you just naturally scale to lvl 18 and the ADC gets a free 7%.

It's freaking bullshit.

MessaigaNov 7, 20154 votes

They should change the item so it works off of bonus HP (and thus doesn't scale directly off the enemy's base stats). Either that or increase the cap drastically, 500 HP difference means very little.

My Waifu VanillaNov 8, 20154 votes

Giant slayer? More like mage slayer since 9.9/10 mage midlaners are buying a rylais, roa, or liandries which combined with your likely higher base health than an adc you also get wrecked by 15% increased damage.

ModWulf HelhammerNov 7, 20156 votes

You do realize those are the same things right? Building tanky shouldn't make you unkillable, it's just supposed to make it take longer to kill you

SasogwaNov 7, 20154 votes

{quoted}

You do realize those are the same things right? Building tanky shouldn't make you unkillable, it's just supposed to make it take longer to kill you

Yes, it's not supposed to make you easier to kill

ModWulf HelhammerNov 7, 20153 votes

And how do they make you easier to kill? Because you can't just stack one kind of defense?

If they didn't have tank burster items, tanks would be unkillable (or the only champions played would be Vayne, Corki, Kog'Maw, and Fiora). The point is to make it to that you, as a tank, are there long enough for your carries to do their jobs and damage the enemy team. You aren't supposed to always be the last one alive in a team fight (if you are, that usually means you failed...or your team is really fed).

Player of GamesNov 7, 20156 votes

Gonna be an ADC/Assassin meta. Tanks will be obsolete, bruisers will have a harder time killing ADC's with all the retarded new itemization, and mages got nerfed pretty good too. Assassins will run wild namely Rengar/Talon due to their ability to remove ADC's from the game.

Gregor GysiNov 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Gonna be an ADC/Assassin meta. Tanks will be obsolete, bruisers will have a harder time killing ADC's with all the retarded new itemization, and mages got nerfed pretty good too. Assassins will run wild namely Rengar/Talon due to their ability to remove ADC's from the game.

I'm not sure about the Assassin part, just take a look at the new masteries.. PPL can't drop below 15% health if their sup stands beside them, ugh. Actually, it's more likeley that it is going to be an ADC + SUPportive meta. Picks like Lulu, Janna, Braum and Soraka are going to dominate. Also probably a few assassins (Rengar?) and certain hard engage (J4?).

Binxy PrimeNov 7, 20154 votes

Go read the masteries again, the tank can't absorb damage for them once the tank is below 15%, and I want to say the damage reduction is 4 or 8% can't remember right now. But that combined with the other defensive items will definitely hurt assassins. Also since tanky builds will be poor in general for most champs in the expected meta it would probably be a good idea for ADCs to build things like BT in lane again which will give them sustain and a shield too.

Welcome to the league of Draven.

Tis a nice dayNov 7, 20156 votes

Mathematically, for most practical situations building health leads to greater survivability, albeit at lesser effectiveness. Champion X with 2000 health vs champion Y with 2500 health but who also takes 15% more damage. 2500/1.15 = 2173.9 effective health.

Building more health only becomes **truly **pointless when the wielder of Giant Slayer has more than 3333 health and his target just manages to hit 3333+500 = 3833 hp 3833/1.15 = 3333 effective health.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Then again, what kind of ADC/Assassin has +3000 health?

Yosuke ApperuNov 7, 20154 votes

But now everyone building Roa mid lane, or liandry/Rylai... lol..Hell even supports with the sight stone + other health item (perhaps liandry) Also great use of that sticker! XD Also rengar can get pretty tanky lol