why are fighters without hard cc locked out of the aftershock rune as a valid option?

Critmaster Garen·Oct 3, 2017·5 votes·3,729 views

i mean if grasp is going to stay trash in season 8, at least give juggs an alternative in that tree pls.

if champions like and even are allowed to proc it, there doesnt seem to be much of an issue with fighters picking it up.

would be nice if fighters without hard cc would be alowed to pick the rune aswell. im not even sure why there is such a strict condition on the effect. isnt the cooldown itself enough?

34 Comments

PennsOct 3, 20172 votes

why is grasp trash doe

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

why is grasp trash doe

you cant rely on it. the stack mechanic is either going to be godlike if your opponent trades with you, or its garbage because you dont get many procs off during the first 10 minutes because your lane opponent doesnt want to fight.

you could theoretically get 50 health per minute if your opponent his happy to fight you nonstop, and you both have the sustain to do so. or you dont get shit because he decides to make it a passive farm lane, because he doesnt want to give you a free giants belt for no reason.

the variance is just too large. in unfavourable matchups you might just not want to trade yourself. and even in the few melee vs. melee matchups where you could trigger it repeatedly, your opponent might just decide "lolfuck u" and focus on playing passive or shoving the lane, then roaming rather than to deal with you. you come out of the lane phase with 1/3 of a keystone.

PennsOct 3, 20171 votes

its still an upgrade to grasp rn tho

im bout to abuse it with item 1413 summoner 11 summoner 12 Fizz top hehe

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

its still an upgrade to grasp rn tho

im bout to abuse it with top hehe

im not going to give a shit about it, since against most top lane matchups you cant trade a lot on garen early game.

either your opponents play safe when you can fight them, or theyre poking and kiting you with only rare chances to trade back.

would be nice to have one keystone in that path to be a general decent choice.

like even if youre facing a maokai, chances are hes just going to farm with saplings and keep you away with his q when he sees that you have grasp, while waiting for roam plays on bot lane.

DayvigilanteOct 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ypxvAF8L,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T15:24:31.379+0000)

im not going to give a shit about it, since against most top lane matchups you cant trade a lot on garen early game.

either your opponents play safe when you can fight them, or theyre poking and kiting you with only rare chances to trade back.

would be nice to have one keystone in that path to be a general decent choice.

like even if youre facing a maokai, chances are hes just going to farm with saplings and keep you away with his q when he sees that you have grasp, while waiting for roam plays on bot lane.

"farm with saplings" Says someone who has never played maokai

JaspersOct 3, 20172 votes

Isn't this no different to Courage of Colossus now? Now you get a shield, after new runes you get resistances.... although for a Nasus or Yorick the options seem limited. Grasp has improvements though, it gives you permanent health too now.

GrievousFetusOct 3, 20171 votes

There's also an AoE slow and a %max hp damage explosion, unless that's changed on the PBE.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Isn't this no different to Courage of Colossus now? Now you get a shield, after new runes you get resistances.... although for a Nasus or Yorick the options seem limited. Grasp has improvements though, it gives you permanent health too now.

you cant rely on grap actually stacking up. its too situational.

especially nasus doesnt want to trade for 50% of the lane phase. he just wants to freeze and stack.

if youre going resolve as a fighter, this is probably what you want:

Aftershock After immobilizing an enemy champion, increase your current Armor and Magic Resist by 10 + 30% for 2.5s. Then, after 2.5s deal damage to nearby enemies.

Damage: 40-140 (+3.5% of your maximum health), Adaptive Cooldown: 20s

at least when you can trigger it.

RalanrOct 3, 20171 votes

But if you can't trigger it with your kit then it becomes way too situational. You'd require blast cone procs.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But if you can't trigger it with your kit then it becomes way too situational. You'd require blast cone procs.

exactly. i want the condition removed or changed to soft cc aswell.

they could just make it a spellblade effect with a 20 sec cooldown on auto attacks against champions too.

im starting to get pissed off that this is the second season in a row where garen doesnt have a keystone that synergizes as well with his kit as the new fervor does for auto attackers, or thunderlord does for assassins.

it always feels like the mastery or rune tree thats supposed to help out fighter builds doesnt offer reliable keystone options for him, and you have to evade to keystones like phase rush as your number 1 choice.

thats not to say phase rush is a bad option, but it just feels limited to go into every game with it, while other champions can pick almost any keystone of any tree.

there might be games where i just want to get 3 runes in resolve, but giving up a keystone isnt worth it.

RalanrOct 3, 20171 votes

Though soft CC would benefit mages a lot if they side specced into it.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Though soft CC would benefit mages a lot if they side specced into it.

nearly all mages can already trigger it.

there is just no good reason theyd want it. i mean even goddamn soraka can trigger it with the snare on her e.

but the fighters who cant trigger it would make good use of it if they could. so theres good reason to allow them.

if they cant allow soft cc like slows, then at least add exceptions to allow trigger off the unique effects in their kits. garens silence, yoricks cage, illaois spirit hook could all be considered immobilizing effects.

KoKobotoOct 3, 20172 votes

Almost all fighters have a form of hard CC. However I'd rather go into all the other damage based trees for fighters.

I'd take aftershock on tanks.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Almost all fighters have a form of hard CC.

DrMundo Garen Illaoi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Shyvana Trundle Yorick

there are a whole bunch of fighters who cant proc it, and a couple whod need their ult to proc it.

However I'd rather go into all the other damage based trees for fighters.

I'd take aftershock on tanks.

why deny them the option though? id love to pick up the rune on juggernauts, when i feel going into resolve but cant stack grasp reliably. (which means almost always for grasp)

diving into the enemy team and wreaking havoc is the lategame power fantasy for juggernauts, and aftershock reflects this playstile very well.

GrievousFetusOct 3, 20171 votes

Trundle procs it via pillar knock up and technically Shyvana's ult can as well.

Why deny them the option though?

Probably because they want a condition that gates the rune so that only tanks and fighters are using it, and they can't justify making it any laxer for the sake of a small handful of fighters and juggernauts without it becoming so lax too many champs that aren't intended to use it end up using it (hello return of Tank Ekko and Fizz).

Which I don't think is the right course of action, they should change how the rune works so only champs that they want to use it actually do end up using it, and simply design the rune in such a way that those other champs they don't want taking it just don't use it, rather than be unable to use it.

Besides Morde needs that phase rush tho

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Trundle procs it via pillar knock up and technically Shyvana's ult can as well.

Probably because they want a condition that gates the rune so that only tanks and fighters are using it, and they can't justify making it any laxer for the sake of a small handful of fighters and juggernauts without it becoming so lax too many champs that aren't intended to use it end up using it (hello return of Tank Ekko and Fizz).

Which I don't think is the right course of action, they should change how the rune works so only champs that they want to use it actually do end up using it, and simply design the rune in such a way that those other champs they don't want taking it just don't use it, rather than be unable to use it.

Besides Morde needs that phase rush tho

then at least add silence to it.

there are only 7 champions in the game with the cc effect, one of them being Rumble who silences himself, and the rest who already have hard cc and can trigger the rune

Blitzcrank Chogath Fiddlesticks Malzahar Soraka

even though it doesnt make sense that theyd want it, except for cho and blitzcrank who can proc it with their knockups.

i still think the other juggs should have the option to pick it aswell.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Trundle procs it via pillar knock up and technically Shyvana's ult can as well.

Probably because they want a condition that gates the rune so that only tanks and fighters are using it.

actually thinking about it, there are so many non tanks who already have hard cc in their kit to trigger it, that this cant really be an argument.

like almost every mage could proc it. i dont know why theyd want to take a melee range effect, but its possible. even a couple marksmen can pick it up. or assassins like Evelynn who can proc it off her charm.

its like an arbitrary "we made this for tanks, so we put the immobilizing condition on it even though we didnt want to make runes for classes but to support playstiles".

GrievousFetusOct 3, 20171 votes

Almost every mage could proc it, but none of them want it because they don't go melee range in the thick of team fights.

If you expanded the rune to work on slows though, suddenly you've just opened the rune up to melee assassins who have a nasty habit of ruining tank and/or bruiser masteries and items. Fizz can start proccing it on his E instead of direct hits with R, Ekko can proc it with Q rather than his difficult to land W, Talon and Zed can suddenly start using as can Kha'Zix. Riot is probably extremely apprehensive about this since it won't be the first or even second time melee assassins turn into sticky tanky bruisers.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Almost every mage could proc it, but none of them want it because they don't go melee range in the thick of team fights.

If you expanded the rune to work on slows though, suddenly you've just opened the rune up to melee assassins who have a nasty habit of ruining tank and/or bruiser masteries and items. Fizz can start proccing it on his E instead of direct hits with R, Ekko can proc it with Q rather than his difficult to land W, Talon and Zed can suddenly start using as can Kha'Zix. Riot is probably extremely apprehensive about this since it won't be the first or even second time melee assassins turn into sticky tanky bruisers.

then they should look into adding exceptions to it.

Garen silence should be considered to be an immobilizing effect for the rune. as i said, all the other champions who have silences already have other forms of hard cc and can trigger it anyway. Yorick trapping champions in his cage too Illaoi pulls and immobilized the spirit, so it could technically count.

if they can make exceptions for Ezreal to make his q work as an auto attack and a spell simultaneously just so he can proc keystone runes with it that hed otherwise not be able to trigger, they can do it for these champions aswell.

i dont know how to make it work for Olaf Shyvana Nasus and Mordekaiser though.

i guess olaf and shyvana have the advantage that they can go into precision if they want to. so theyve got that going for them.

nasus options seem incredibly limited. he really only has phase rush and freezeray.

KoKobotoOct 3, 20171 votes

The same reason why phase dive provides slow resistances melee only, why hydra items are melee only, why new steraks will be melee only. So that other people don't abuse it .

The way I see it Rito needs to split up Resolve for Wardens and Vanguards to help cover more options.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The same reason why phase dive provides slow resistances melee only, why hydra items are melee only, why new steraks will be melee only. So that other people don't abuse it .

The way I see it Rito needs to split up Resolve for Wardens and Vanguards to help cover more options.

what i dont like about the thought of making the defensive tree or trees all about wardens and vanguards, its that its going to be the same shit.

there will be a bunch of runes in the vanguard tree that fighters should be able to pick up, but you can only trigger with cc. imo fighters and especially juggernauts should have access to these effects.

most of them actually do.

Udyr Darius Urgot can easily trigger aftershock if they want the mastery for example.

its just a couple of fighters are just left out for no reason.

15 available keystones in the new system, and nasus has literally 2 decent options. either freezeray, or phase rush. everything else either requires constant trading with his opponent which he just doesnt want, or it doesnt have synergy with his kit.

meanwhile there is barely one keystone that Jax cant make use of. im not hating on jax here, but some champions feel like they dont have a lot of options, while others have a lot of freedom in their builds and can just pick whatever they feel like fits the playstile of the player with the champion.

ModAcademy KaynOct 3, 20172 votes

Those aren't fighters, save Trundle. They all fall pretty firmly in Juggernaut tier, so you're complaint isn't "Why Fighters can't proc it" and more so "Why can't Juggernauts proc it".

Chembaron YamadaOct 3, 20172 votes

Juggernauts are all part of the fighter class, Trundle included.

ModAcademy KaynOct 3, 20171 votes

Okay, but regardless, Juggernaut is still it's own delineation and follows it's own standards. He's saying that because Divers can use the keystone reliably, he should also allow Juggs too as well, which isn't much of an argument. It's just saying "Well that's not fair", when fairness has nothing to do with it.

Chembaron YamadaOct 3, 20171 votes

I agree with you. Don't see a reason to change it, it is the same with CotC rn. I play alot of Juggernauts and don't need this, I will just use Grasp.

Chembaron YamadaOct 3, 20171 votes

Trundle can easily procc it with his ice pillar.

JustMonika13Oct 3, 20171 votes

What would you make the condition then?

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What would you make the condition then?

just make it work on its cooldown or allow soft cc like silences and slows as the trigger condition aswell.

i dont understand what the point of it is, to only trigger it on strictly immobilizing effects.

the way its designed, it makes you already want to pick it on health stacking champions, who stay in the fight at least for a short while.

Iota ThetaOct 3, 20171 votes

Except the rune is supposed to replace Courage of the Colossus, and if they were to ease up the conditions they’ll have to cut it so other classes don’t abuse the free resists.

Beside, a lot of fighters will probably prefer keystones from Domination. The ones you’re complaining about that can’t use aftershock can’t build CotC either, nor do they seem to care to.

The damage is also negligible. Even if you hit 4000 HP, that’s only 280 total damage (at max level), which a lot of fighters can get more of by dipping into other trees. Grasp is actually only .5% less max health as damage on a melee. If you have trouble getting to someone for Grasp, it’s gonna be just as hard to get to them for Aftershock.

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ypxvAF8L,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T17:10:35.599+0000)

Except the rune is supposed to replace Courage of the Colossus, and if they were to ease up the conditions they’ll have to cut it so other classes don’t abuse the free resists.

Beside, a lot of fighters will probably prefer keystones from Domination. The ones you’re complaining about that can’t use aftershock can’t build CotC either, nor do they seem to care to.

i fucking disagree. if i could use courage of the colossus, id use it.

ive seen Darius run the keystone aswell in the past.

the only reason im not occationally picking it, is literally because i cant trigger it.

next to the damage, there are also the 2.5 sec resistance increase on aftershock. garen would love that shit, and illaoi could use it for a burst of defenses to set up her ult, and to get some extra damage on the spirit.

yorick might want it aswell to fight someone trapped in his cage.

just let people decide for themselves if they want to run it on fighters. i though thats the entire purpose behind the rune rework. not to make you pick one specific rune every game, but to give players options for different playstiles.

Iota ThetaOct 3, 20171 votes

Deep breath.

Wasn’t Darius mainly running it when it was a super strong keystone? Nowadays I mainly see him run Fervor or Stormraiders. CotC is too situational with the way his hook is.

The resolve tree is basically one keystone for Juggernauts/bruisers, one for Wardens, and one for Vanguards.

Some tanks can use Grasp better than the other two keystones, while some Juggernauts/bruisers can utilize Aftershock. They do have options, and they have options outside of the Resolve tree. Phase Rush for stickiness, Predator for getting into fights, most can proc Electrocute rather. And for a dueling style most can even run Press the Attack since they usually need prolonged fights.

Best princess EUOct 3, 20171 votes

how is grasp staying trash when now it's adaptive damage?

Critmaster GarenOct 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

how is grasp staying trash when now it's adaptive damage?

because a huge chunk of its power budget is in the unreliable stack mechanic.

id rather pick a reliable keystone rune like phase rush or aftershock on a fighter than pray that my opponent is dumb enough to let me stack grasp on him.

if theyd make the heal just scale up to 3% by level 18 and make the health increase just 3% total health, then grasp would be fine. but it would still be a bit limiting that its the only option in the resolve tree.

ModAcademy KaynOct 3, 20171 votes

Because if we lowered the standard to Soft CCs, we'd have a chance of bringing back Tank-assassins/skirmishers.