well.
ranged klepto users are almost universally outperforming their melee compatriots.
ranged press the attack users are almost universally outperforming their melee compatriots.
ranged lethal tempo users are almost universally outperforming their melee compatriots.
what are you going to do about that?
oOBestEveNAOo64 votesI'd rather have bruisers and assassins use this keystone than every adc having a stupid jinx passive.
There is legitimately no escaping a phase rush vayne. If I blow 2 summoners and an ult attempting to escape and she still just had to run behind me without using an ability or summoner then something is wrong.
Melee should be outperforming with this rune riot.
Lethal tempo should double values for melee.
Press the attack should just be deleted before we encourage further 3 and 4 adc comps and the ultimate siege meta (already boring and it's only been 3 weeks of it) or make it 1/4th as effective on ranged champs. (Seriously stupid to have a keystone meant for bruisers and tanks to help increase marksman team fight effectiveness work so good on marksman and only marksman that tanks aren't worth playing in favor of the snowball siege meta that's simply too effective at ending games at 20 minutes)
Everything in the inspiration tree should just be deleted now. Nothing in it is balanced or even possible to balance.
Faustavian1 votesYes let's double LT for melee -_-
oOBestEveNAOo3 votesYes let's double LT for melee -_-
He would probably still wouldn't be competitively viable. But he might be playable as a niche pick again.
Faustavian1 votesNah, he's already cancer in PUB's and low ELO, it would NOT be good for the overall game health if he received that buff.
kile14715 votesLethal Tempo having double values for melees would make it incredibly overpowered on a few select melees while fixing none of the problems that it has for the ones who should be core users like Aatrox and Xin. Melee champs generally can't use the full attack speed from Lethal Tempo already because they are either dead before it procs or because they can't orbwalk as effectively as ADCs. They'd probably benefit far more from a shorter activation time than more attack speed.
The best way to deal with Press the Attack would be for it to get moved to the Domination tree and combined with Electrocute. Having a rune in Domination which procs off of three abilities to deal damage then provides a damage amp afterwards would work well with Riot's design philosophy of having large but delayed burst. It would make it more attractive on assassins who already have delayed burst for damage reasons, and it would give assassins some utility when behind so that even if they can't kill a target they can make them more vulnerable to others. I feel like you already can't rework PtA to make it less attractive on marksmen because it's too similar to Electrocute, so just combine them and tune it so that it's more focused for delayed burst and utility than for DPS.
Critmaster Garen4 votesLethal Tempo having double values for melees would make it incredibly overpowered on a few select melees while fixing none of the problems that it has for the ones who should be core users like Aatrox and Xin. Melee champs generally can't use the full attack speed from Lethal Tempo already because they are either dead before it procs or because they can't orbwalk as effectively as ADCs. They'd probably benefit far more from a shorter activation time than more attack speed.
I honestly feel like Press the Attack should get moved to the Domination tree and combined with Electrocute. Having a rune in Domination which procs off of three abilities to deal damage then provides a damage amp afterwards would work well with Riot's design philosophy of having large but delayed burst. It would make it more attractive on assassins who already have delayed burst for damage reasons, and it would give assassins some utility when behind so that even if they can't kill a target they can make them more vulnerable to others. I feel like you already can't rework PtA to make it less attractive on marksmen because it's too similar to Electrocute, so just combine them and tune it so that it's more focused for delayed burst and utility than for DPS.
im pretty sure buffing lethal tempo in general will also make it busted on 
this disparity doesnt just exist amongst melee champions like 
and
but ranged carries aswell.
making it less effective on ranged champions than on melee champions due to the higher accessability is something entirely different.
kile14710 votesSorry if it wasn't clear, I meant that Lethal Tempo should be buffed in a way that helps melees more than ranged without it just offering more stats. An interesting way to do it could be to make it so that the activation time starts at 0.5 seconds and scales up based on max auto range, and make it only proc of auto attacks. It would benefit melees a ton because they would always get the close to 0.5 second activation time while ADCs at max range would have to wait just as long as live, if not longer.
Math could be as simple as Activation Time=0.5+((Range-125)*.0025).
This would result in the majority of melee champs getting 0.5-.0.7 second activation times, while the majority of ranged champs would have about 1.45-1.55 seconds before activation, with some of the longest ones getting up above 1.8 seconds.
oOBestEveNAOo4 votesLethal Tempo having double values for melees would make it incredibly overpowered on a few select melees while fixing none of the problems that it has for the ones who should be core users like Aatrox and Xin. Melee champs generally can't use the full attack speed from Lethal Tempo already because they are either dead before it procs or because they can't orbwalk as effectively as ADCs. They'd probably benefit far more from a shorter activation time than more attack speed.
Melee's don't care about the full attack speed. That isn't the point. The point is to give AA reliant bruisers a chance in lane so that they are actually relevant to the game as opposed to auto loss picks.
Jax, Irelia, Tryn, mostly anything with a fighter tag. These should be the champs this keystone is aimed at. It would allow them to build more durability and be relevant in team fights to perform their role of jumping a high priority target as secondary initiation and actually have a chance of killing them rather than being insta gibbed the second they all in.
The best way to deal with Press the Attack would be for it to get moved to the Domination tree and combined with Electrocute.
Sheez. Good god no. This is unbelievably silly and foolish for oh so many reasons. Domination is already the strongest tree in general. It should get many nerfs. Not buffs.
kile1472 votesSheez. Good god no. This is unbelievably silly and foolish for oh so many reasons. Domination is already the strongest tree in general. It should get many nerfs. Not buffs.
The nerf would be in the base damage. PtA does significantly less damage than electrocute, so having it do PtA damage with reduced electrocute scalings would massively reduce the burst of electrocute. It would still get a ~10% damage amp to compensate a bit by giving it utility and rewards for delayed burst though. It having the electrocute cooldown on a per person basis would encourage it not to be used for DPS and make it less oppressive in lane, but would also give it less downtime in teamfights/roaming by allowing you to switch targets.
Basically the end goal would be to fix the problems that both electrocute and PtA have by making the new keystone more accessible to classes outside ADCs, less toxic for 100-0 burst patterns, and would offer a way for assassins to be less feast or famine by rewarding their access the backline even if they don't have the capability of executing a kill.
oOBestEveNAOo2 votesThe nerf would be in the base damage. PtA does significantly less damage than electrocute, so having it do PtA damage with reduced electrocute scalings would massively reduce the burst of electrocute. It would still get a ~10% damage amp to compensate a bit by giving it utility and rewards for delayed burst though. It having the electrocute cooldown on a per person basis would encourage it not to be used for DPS and make it less oppressive in lane, but would also give it less downtime in teamfights/roaming by allowing you to switch targets.
Basically the end goal would be to fix the problems that both electrocute and PtA have by making the new keystone more accessible to classes outside ADCs, less toxic for 100-0 burst patterns, and would offer a way for assassins to be less feast or famine by rewarding their access the backline even if they don't have the capability of executing a kill.
All you did was improve the keystone for ADCs... who now have press the attack AND electrocute... as one keystone...
Terrible idea.
kile1473 votesHow would it be better for ADCs? It would do a bit more up front damage than PtA but would have a significantly longer cooldown, meaning that it wouldn't be as good for DPS. On of the major issues with PtA right now is that you can have almost 100% uptime on the damage amp while also getting small damage bursts throughout, which is amazing for DPS users like ADCs who can safely proc it. With this change the damage amp would still have a shortish duration, but the cooldown for the next damage proc will take much longer. The damage can also be nerfed even further to make up for the increased reliability in getting the damage off if needed.
General Esdeath 4 votesRemember when Riot made fervor stacks apply twice as fast for melee as compared to range? Riot didn't like us agreeing with them.
Dasdi9637 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ucwZT41,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-12-05T20:33:20.413+0000)
well.
ranged klepto users are almost universally outperforming their melee compatriots.
ranged press the attack users are almost universally outperforming their melee compatriots.
ranged lethal tempo users are almost universally outperforming their melee compatriots.
what are you going to do about that?
That is so true. Riot's bias towards ranged champions is so unreal.
Eternal Torment24 votesPhase rusher is the mastery with the speedup and slow resist if you hit 3 attacks or skills, right?
I always thought that was THE mastery for Cass, vlad and Ryze.
guess not
Edit: nvm, i just noticed my infinite stupidity, These 3 are all ranged champs XD
Edit 2: Nvm my first edit, i reread the post again and realized that it complains about how melees are stronger with it....so...back to my main Statement...phase rusher on cass ryze and vlad seem like a very great choice, quick positioning and all that stuff.
wildfox996 votesPhase rusher is the mastery with the speedup and slow resist if you hit 3 attacks or skills, right?
I always thought that was THE mastery for Cass, vlad and Ryze.
guess not
Edit: nvm, i just noticed my infinite stupidity, These 3 are all ranged champs XD
Edit 2: Nvm my first edit, i reread the post again and realized that it complains about how melees are stronger with it....so...back to my main Statement...phase rusher on cass ryze and vlad seem like a very great choice, quick positioning and all that stuff.
damn bipolarism
SirLapse1 votesIt's garbage on Vlad after the changes, and Aurelion Sol also got destroyed pretty hard from it.
Eternal Torment1 votesIt still works on vlad, it's just harder to proc since it forces him to AA and build protobelt
SirLapse1 votesI'd rather run Summoner Swap top lane Vlad with Ignite/Flash so that Ghost inevitably will have 25% CDR, so every two fights or so will have Ghost be up. Ridiculously better compared to what is essentially a dead keystone on Vlad. Usable and good aren't the same thing sadly.
[zombie-nunu-bummed]
Eternal Torment1 votesIt is very arguable. Phase rusher has, thanks to it's movement speed scaling unlike the predecessor Stormraiders had, become a more difficult mastery to utilize earlygame, which is crutial to vlad. Sure, it isn't as good on him anymore but it still does the job. I however do give you the rights on that. SS was a lot better than phase rusher is.
AirKingNeo17 votesBetter question:
WHAT MELEE USES OF PHASE RUSH AND HOW ARE THEY BEATING ANY RANGED CHAMPIONS?
ChuShoe10 votesdiamond smurfs who play nasus in bronze 5 to elo grind
Verxint12 votesGod forbid melee champions get something for being melee
FalconPawwwwnch12 votes+1
It's disgusting how riot pulls this shit but then leaves the crit ratio in fleet of footwork LMAO
"it's okay just buy crit on melee"
ModWulf Helhammer8 votesPost on your main account.
redniwediS15 votesI'd bet this account of his is better known than his main. Besides, it's the words you should be listening to, not the account.
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesI've kinda stopped listening to anything he said once I realized that it's a smurf that is unequivocally melee biased, and not always in favor of actual game balance. If he was concerned about not being known from his actual account, all we would have to say is that he was Critmaster Garen
redniwediS13 votesEveryone is biased, it's a human trait, and I've found that his posts are typically well thought out and his points reasonable.
Do they support game balance? Yes. Do they support the idea each one of us individually thinks is what a balanced League looks like? Not necessarily, for obvious reasons.
You may not share his bias, but his points are typically worth reading.
Critmaster Garen21 votes[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ucwZT41,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-12-05T21:26:30.161+0000)
I've kinda stopped listening to anything he said once I realized that it's a smurf that is unequivocally melee biased, and not always in favor of actual game balance. If he was concerned about not being known from his actual account, all we would have to say is that he was Critmaster Garen
im not even melee biased. i find melee and ranged champions should be equally viable picks in every lane. that includes bot (in the carry role, not just as support), mid and top lane.
but game balance is almost always heavily skewed towards ranged champions, and a large part of the game population is ranged biased.
there are double standarts everywhere. for example, a lot of people find it acceptable that certain ranged champions hard counter melee champions.
certain melee vs. ranged matchups will never be fair.
a will never be a fair matchup for 
example. there is no point in the game where the garen will be able to fight or defend against the vayne. in lane, hed always be on the backfoot just trying to get as much farm as possible and survive. opportunities for an engagement are only possible if the vayne makes a severe mistake since her kit doesnt have the potential to get outplayed. even if he keeps up in gold and xp and doesnt die, he will eventually get outscaled by her.
this is a very specific (and unusual) example, but there are many ranged champions in the game who hard counter melee champions like that and people just accept that there are ranged matchups that dont have counterplay for melee champions.
however, when there is one. only ONE melee carry who has a specific ability to hard counter ranged champions and abilities, people lose their shit.
you can constanlty hear the outcry over how frustrating and "unfair" 
windwall is.
this is only one example of double standarts and ranged bias that exists in a large part of the community.
i could continue with expectation of kit inherent counterplay, where melee carries are held to a much higher standart than marksmen for example.
i just like to remind riot that ability and auto attack range is a powerful stat and has to considered in champion and ability power budgets everywhere. that includes the new runes.
Thefrostyviking9 votesVayne gets dumpstered by 
in the toplane though.
At least according to Korean op.gg
And her winrate there is 45%.
This kinda proves that counterplay is kinda abundant as long as you pick the right champ.
And there is no ranged equivalent of Yasuo´s windwall that shuts down all enemy melee champions for ....3-4 seconds.
Imagine what and outcry there'd be if some champ could just disable nearly all melee abilities and auto attacks for that time.
It would be just as bad as the hate against Yasuo, or worse.
So right, there are plenty of matchups in league where there is just nothing one can do, but this holds plenty true for both melee and ranged, Vayne toplane for instance has a 60% loss rate against irelia for instance, and a 63% one against Pantheon.
64% if we wana count Teemo......
Critmaster Garen12 votesThis kinda proves that counterplay is kinda abundant as long as you pick the right champ.
thats not counterplay, thats a counter pick.
Thefrostyviking4 votesTrue, but to have any possibility of counterplay you usually have to pick a champ with the tools to exploit enemy weakness.
If your champs lacks any ability to do this against the enemy champ then you have kinda hard counterpicked yourself, this holds true for any lane.
While some of those matchups are nigh impossible for Vayne to win there are also several that sat at 51% winrate against her and a few that i didn't list that sat at 50%.
Vayne isn't impossible to beat, nor is she impossible to counter.
It's just a matter about not picking a champ that can't do anything about her, and the worst pick against her according to OP,GG is galio, followed by Tryndamere, kled,illaoi,ryze,Garen, darius riven and gnar.
Those are the only champs she has a positive winrate against, however only the 3 first are pretty hopeless with a 54-60% loss rate against her, the others have at most 53% which is still winable if played well.
This proven by Mordekaiser whom sits at a 55% winrate against Vayne toplane O_O
And he usually ends the game with a better KDA and kill participation.
Slow clunky morde actually rolls over slippery and pesky Vayne....i did personally not expect that.
So, as long as you have the right tools or strong enough ones you win.
Critmaster Garen10 votesImagine what and outcry there'd be if some champ could just disable nearly all melee abilities and auto attacks for that time.
this mechanic exists, and its called kiting
when a ranged champion keeps a melee champion at distance while dealing damage to him, then the melee champion cant use his auto attacks or abilities against the ranged champion.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 voteshe's totaly biased... any toplaner know the feeling to being c*ckblocked by 
yasuo is far from this level of cancer
oOBestEveNAOo2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ucwZT41,comment-id=000300000000000100000001,timestamp=2017-12-05T23:42:58.843+0000)
this mechanic exists, and its called kiting
Shen doesn't like to kite so he got it as an ability.
VorpaltheFox2 votesAt least according to Korean op.gg
not to be that guy, but things that work in korea don't always work everywhere else, and vice versa, same with the difference in elos
Critmaster Garen14 votes[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ucwZT41,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-05T21:08:51.693+0000)
Post on your main account.
no. why even? its entirely irrelevant to the argument.
Modl Ryden l4 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2ucwZT41,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-12-05T21:36:30.634+0000)
no. why even? its entirely irrelevant to the argument.
It blemishes your credibility. Why should I listen to someone who whines about such a small topic that he/she has to desperately repost though multiple accounts?
Was the first post not enough? Then you should try harder to be more persuasive.
FireDrizzle7 votesAre there any melee champs that usually take PR other than 
and 
? Because Dar is weak enough to buff. "Who are these Melee Phase Rush userS outperforming" the ranged users?
PopcornBunni7 votesEkko fares pretty well against mages when his cooldowns are up, so we’re giving him the tools to engage more often.
FireDrizzle6 votesCould you provide a link to this please?
What "Melee Phase Rush users" ? No one takes it on melee its a crap keystone. Can anyone name 1 meta "Melee Phase Rush user"? Becasue I cant. I suggested this keystone was buffed for melee rather than just ranged. Now it will be a ranged only option like Klepto.
Critmaster Garen4 votesCould you provide a link to this please?
What "Melee Phase Rush users" ? No one takes it on melee its a crap keystone. Can anyone name 1 meta "Melee Phase Rush user"? Becasue I cant. I suggested this keystone was buffed for melee rather than just ranged. Now it will be a ranged only option like Klepto.
its in the patch notes.
redniwediS6 votesI can name one and only one; Nasus.
FireDrizzle3 votesExcept nasus isnt meta he is shit now.
FireDrizzle6 votesI look on eune and he is actually 50% winrate so maybe im wrong, but his main keystone is grasp now, and we all know why that is.
statelesskiller19 votesdarius can make very good use of it, everytime i go top with vlad or gp someone picks darius with flash ghost and phase rush and i know im about to be reported for inting
Kurjao2 votesCould you provide a link to this please?
What "Melee Phase Rush users" ? No one takes it on melee its a crap keystone. Can anyone name 1 meta "Melee Phase Rush user"? Becasue I cant. I suggested this keystone was buffed for melee rather than just ranged. Now it will be a ranged only option like Klepto.
It's pretty good on Tahm Kench since the tenacity given negates the slow on his W, allowing for surprisingly quick movement when carrying an enemy champion. Although it's purely situational
vgamedude5 votesMore adc favoritism. Imagine that.
waiting for WoW15 votesMore adc favoritism. Imagine that.
Do you seriously think ADC are going to take Phase Rush when they can go fleet footwork? Who is gonna take Phase Rush as an ADC going sorcery? Jhin? With his long reload mechanic? Varus? MF? No because comet is still better on all 3 of them, and so is fleet footwork...
