Thought Experiment: If we remove Flash in preseason, what would happen?

SaltyToplaneGoat··3 votes·596 views

And what changes would probably be made?

Flash has been pretty much the constant most overpowered thing since the dawn of league. I cannot remember a single time when it was not the "best choice" to pick it, apart from a few very specific champs and even the the alternatives were barely better than just rolling out with flash in your pocket.

So from what I have seen on the boards there were two concerns:

1.) Immobile champs becoming trash because they become even more immobile.

Now that is something that can be fixed easily. Most champs need only a few buffs, and some are completly outdated anyways and are in dire need of a rework. Let's look at the "big rework pipeline": Poppy, Taric soon, Galio is also in need of one I guess, same thing with Yorick (At least I hope they remember Yorick Mori... it has been years...). Their reworks can solve their specific problems, so that's not a problem either.

2.) (Immobile) Junglers being unable to wall-jump

This is something I have seen in another thread and it made some sense:

So, Dragon and Baron are both extremly important objectives that make and break games, and we all know that feel as a jungler when you just flash over and steal it - or at least engage hard on them so they can't take it.

"But Udyr never needed it", you might say now, but that fucker is moving at mach 5 anyways.

But how do we fix this? Simple: item 3711. Just change the passive for smite on this one: smite can now be selfcast and allows seeing+walking through one wall while giving a short movement boost (nowhere near ghost speed, just a slight speed up). Perfect for counterjungling. And suddenly that item has its unique, viable niche while still being not stronger as the other jungle items (that bring either some serious combat advantage to the field or a lot of clear+sustain power)

Apart from these two point I would see no problems with flash being removed. Seriously, it might be the best thing that could happen to the game actully. You want the game to feel fresh and new? Take out the one thing that is dominating 99% of all matches. Simple as that.

You guys always complain about mobility creep. And now when we could just lower the entire level of moblity in the game you complain for some reason.

On a side note: we might as well introduce some new summoner spells, as clarity and clearvoyance are probably getting kicked out of the game next preseason. I'm for one that is is an instant , AOE knockback from the caster (no damage). Like this squishies don't have to cling to their heal on botlane or barrier in mid (mages in that case) and it might be even viable on tanks. Not sure why I like this idea so much.... maybe I just hate kata mains, who knows?

22 Comments

Asayake 5150glow4 votes

Wait a second. Your solution to mobility creep is to rework all immobile champions? How is this supposed to help 0_o

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Only the ones that require a rework anyways. I mean, look at Galio. Poor guy is extremly outdated and will get a complete revamp anyways. Balancing the game around the fact that Galio needs flash right now to function does not appear like a good solution to me.

Everyone else is fine with minor tweaks I guess. I mean, I never really needed flash as Vel'koz for example - unless someone else flashed into my face or I position really bad. And that guy is super immobile, ya can't deny that. He might need a little buff. Maybe. Or some increase in base MS, btut the removal of flash would barely affect him.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yoUtyMR9,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-06T23:31:22.507+0000)

Only the ones that require a rework anyways. I mean, look at Galio. Poor guy is extremly outdated and will get a complete revamp anyways. Balancing the game around the fact that Galio needs flash right now to function does not appear like a good solution to me.

Everyone else is fine with minor tweaks I guess. I mean, I never really needed flash as Vel'koz for example - unless someone else flashed into my face or I position really bad. And that guy is super immobile, ya can't deny that. He might need a little buff. Maybe. Or some increase in base MS, btut the removal of flash would barely affect him.

There's also a lot of other's who need flash but are otherwise fine, (Diana, 0 escapes ftw). Plus, Flash is not going anywhere. Reason?

Flash => Fancy wall hops/ maneuvering => outplay potential => good (Riot's opinion, and I can't say I disagree as much as some others). Yep.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, Diana in her design is not supposed to have an escape. She's an all-in fighter assassin. What part of "All-in" goes together with "escape"? Either she kills you, or dies. That's pretty much her pattern.

Maybe buff her then or see if she really needs it (I mean that's why we have the PBE, no? test it, tune it, test it again)

RyzeRework1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yoUtyMR9,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-06T23:39:47.592+0000)

Well, Diana in her design is not supposed to have an escape. She's an all-in fighter assassin. What part of "All-in" goes together with "escape"? Either she kills you, or dies. That's pretty much her pattern.

Maybe buff her then or see if she really needs it (I mean that's why we have the PBE, no? test it, tune it, test it again)

diana is one of the strongest junglers right now lol she provides tanky and damange all in one kit no buffs please

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, I never said she really needs any, but that she might need some tweaks if flash was suddenly removed - altho she would be still strong enough without it I think. That kind of stuff has to be tested out on the PBE I guess...

Posui Gart2 votes

The only problem with Flash is that it is too versatile Escape? Check Engage? Check Chasing? Check Its like having a barrier that can be casted on enemy to work like ignite. So we can either make it a tool for escaping(buff range and cd, but disables caster's attacks and spells for 1 sec) or engaging(buff range and cd, castable only at enemy units) or something like it

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

And the fact that it's instant. Most spells have their effect spread over a duration of several seconds. Ignite, Ghost, Exhaust... but flash is more usefull because you press the button and you get the full effect of it.

Decrit1 votes

Well immobile champions won' t become that useless, they would probably just use exaust or ghost and deal with it.

The game will be more dangerous, since you don't have a save every few mins if you screw up... however, you have less risky plays with flash and less fails, and less catches with flash ( see talon ).

I see junglers running ignite or ghost, the former for kill potential and the latter for roaming power. Toplaners will have tp mandatory and then heal or ignite, most probably heal since it can outclass ghost too.

Probably the support will pick teleport, it might sound weird but being able to affect other lanes easily while leaving the carry farming ( that is safer thanks to heal/barrier/cleanse and without risking an ignite ) and being atill able to get to him is cool. If instead the support wants to be more lane focused ye olde exaust heal is fine too, with the carry running ignite.

Midlaners will be pretty much the same, take off flash and put on tp so they can roam without leaving mid too much uncovered.

... Yeah, lots of teleports.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

This does not take in effect that in preseason there might be new summoner spells that might make this a little more diverse.

And if teleport is really the problem, just crank up the cooldown of it a little. The spell itself is not op. Interruptable, leaving your lane usually means leaving your tower open, etc etc.

I personally would like the game being more dangerous. Would be a bit more exciting ^^

Decrit1 votes

aaaand who cares about probable but never called out spells in theorycrafting? you asked about what would happen if flash got removed.

Also the teleport will simply be the new flash - cranking up the CD is what they did to flash, yet is still played.

What needs to happen is to give a fresher, clearer and stronger purpose to already existing spells, not nerf others in CD.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

But teleport is by far not as universal to use as flash, nor does it have any direct combat use (apart from hecarim with homeguards which got nerfed). You would be down to one combat spell, and if you pick ghost for mobility you get pretty much screwed is someone goes Exhaust+Ignite against you in lane.

I see it every time I play top. I have ignite, my enemy doesn't. The ignite helps me kill him, meanwhile teleport doesn't help in any way. It's a serious advantage, even now.

Mass teleports might work well with coordinates teams, but in soloQ the team with the more combat-oriented summoners would dominate.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yoUtyMR9,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-06T23:48:51.429+0000)

But teleport is by far not as universal to use as flash, nor does it have any direct combat use (apart from hecarim with homeguards which got nerfed). You would be down to one combat spell, and if you pick ghost for mobility you get pretty much screwed is someone goes Exhaust+Ignite against you in lane.

I see it every time I play top. I have ignite, my enemy doesn't. The ignite helps me kill him, meanwhile teleport doesn't help in any way. It's a serious advantage, even now.

Mass teleports might work well with coordinates teams, but in soloQ the team with the more combat-oriented summoners would dominate.

There's a reason I should never take teleport with me - I always forget to use it xD. But then I'm bad.

Teleport can be used effectively, though not by me. Should be plenty of video evidence on youtube or something.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, the only uses of it are:

1.) Getting back to lane quick after roam/death 2.) Ganking 3.) Backdooring

1.) Doesn't really matter, 2.) Requires teamwork or it's wasted 3.) Is a super risky strategy.

In addition to the usual weaknesses the spell has (Oh you left your lane... welp, thanks for the free two towers and all that cs) as well as the fact that it can be interrupted (the main reason Shen-players hate my nami top xD) this spell wouldn't reach flash-status by far...

Decrit1 votes

with the new flash i meant "the one spell that you can only nerf by CD, and even with high CD wills till be picked". Obviously, you don' t need too many mobility spells else you might be short on kill potential. In your case you said you were able to get kills with ignite because the enemy did not have a combal spell, which is fine... but because you had flash.

I am talking a case where flash is no more, so tp + ignite can be quite common. please don' t mix up stuff.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

And TP+ignite might lose against ignite+ghost. Or against ignite+exhaust. Or whatever combat-oriented-combo. Or ignite+barrier (that might be the strongest one against it).

I'm not sure why people suddenly say teleport is OP... sure, in coordinated pro play it's strong but there were no changes to the spell for years and suddenly people complain? That makes no sense...

Decrit1 votes

... you are compleately missing the point here. Of course double combat spells lets yoy have better dueling - that always was, it is and always will be and is fair and right. Why do you get lost in that?!

Also, TP was always powerful and so far i see no complaints at all. What i did was just voicing a prediction, but that's it.

redniwediS1 votes

I'd be interested in a weekend test where Flash is disabled or something during the preseason, but the entire preseason? That might be a bit much.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Why not an extra mode like blackmarket brawlers?

I mean they used that too to get some testing done, like tricksters glass or swindlers orb. Deadman's plate was also from there originally.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

List of champions that currently rely on Flash as a crutch (You would need to rework ALL of these champions in the same patch): Anivia Annie Ashe Blitzcrank Brand Braum Cassiopeia Chogath DrMundo Draven Evelynn Fiddlesticks Galio Heimerdinger Karma Karthus Kayle Kennen KogMaw Leona Lulu Lux Malphite Malzahar MissFortune Mordekaiser Nami Nasus Nunu Orianna Poppy Rammus Renekton Rumble Ryze Shen Skarner Sona Soraka Swain Syndra Taric Teemo Thresh Trundle Tryndamere Twitch Urgot Varus Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Volibear Warwick Xerath Yorick Ziggs Zilean Zyra

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Most of them are ok with minor tweaks I guess as almost none of them need flash as a core-element of their spell-pattern. The only two that I see now are Annie and Malz because they can no longer cc you to death from massive range. I hate flash-tibbers anyways...

Also notice something? Many champs you have shown here are just extremly outdated. Nunu, Taric, Poppy, Yorick, Warwick, Mundo... the list goes on.

Also, we still would have summoner 6 , a spell that is often picked on several champs you have listed as a replacement of flash.

ALso... not sure what you are smoking but I doubt Tryndramere out of all champs would suddenly be unviable without flash. A champ that has an almost spammable wall jump and you claim he needs flash as a "crutch". I am not sure what your logic was when putting together this list.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yoUtyMR9,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-10-07T00:07:12.533+0000)

Most of them are ok with minor tweaks I guess as almost none of them need flash as a core-element of their spell-pattern. The only two that I see now are Annie and Malz because they can no longer cc you to death from massive range. I hate flash-tibbers anyways...

Also notice something? Many champs you have shown here are just extremly outdated. Nunu, Taric, Poppy, Yorick, Warwick, Mundo... the list goes on.

Also, we still would have summoner 6 , a spell that is often picked on several champs you have listed as a replacement of flash.

ALso... not sure what you are smoking but I doubt Tryndramere out of all champs would suddenly be unviable without flash. A champ that has an almost spammable wall jump and you claim he needs flash as a "crutch". I am not sure what your logic was when putting together this list.

Yes, many of the champions I have listed are extremely outdated, which means that reworking them will take much longer than more recent reworks like Fiora or Darius.

And Tryndamere uses Flash to get into position to W and then E, his E deals damage so initiating a fight with Flash is usually the better option to trying to spin into range and then not having your spin up and just autoing.

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