We shall remember the date as Caitlyn has become completly obsolte...

SaltyToplaneGoat·Jan 12, 2016·167 votes·8,455 views

... as there is now a champ that tops her "sniper"-archetype with his ultimate alone.

Heck, he even has cooler traps.

201 Comments

ViashinoWizardJan 12, 2016105 votes

Jhin doesn't have a nice hat, though.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 12, 201659 votes

Mask > Hat

Sorry about that... Also, he might have a hat in his release skin. Hat and Mask... absolute overkill...

WarlordTimJan 12, 201627 votes

And I am equally sorry. Fashion League is best League, and Cait's hat rests at the top.

ShaftyMegeeJan 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cZrkXdEq,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-01-12T19:45:53.563+0000)

Mask > Hat

Sorry about that... Also, he might have a hat in his release skin. Hat and Mask... absolute overkill...

Oooo daaaaamn

MigrañaboyJan 13, 201617 votes

He doesn't deliver tits.

xl Kirito lxJan 12, 201649 votes

Wait, this is a new champion? I thought this was the Caitlyn rework.

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 12, 20168 votes

She really needs one tho...

Silents429Jan 12, 201651 votes

She got one during pre season that was a success.

A Miss FortuneJan 12, 20167 votes

She's probably one of the weakest ADCs right now though. The only thing she has is safety, her range isn't even something to take in consideration with champions like Miss Fortune who can easily put up with her range with abilities. Why pick a safe ADC like Caitlyn at all when she has one unreliable auto steroid that doesn't even do much until you get a few items.

Auz the RipperJan 12, 20165 votes

that's more a function of the meta more than anything. currently the name of the game is high risk/high reward snowballing, pretty much the only meta where the safety Caitlyn offers is not as advantageous as raw carrying power. When the meta shifts to literally anything else, she'll be alot better

DaCushJan 12, 201610 votes

That's usually how adc's work though. Not much damage until you get a few items. As far as op claiming them being almost the same, they have completely different playstyles. One is long range and safe, the other is mid range and not so safe. He probably can't litter the floor with traps like caitlin due to higher cd, his ult is a skillshot rather than point and click, and he gets no attack speed. Completely different playstyles. And no, I'm not saying Caitlin is good in the meta.

Robbit MangJan 12, 20167 votes

it definitely was not a success. Her winrate went down ~4% after the rework, and they killed off AP caitlyn completely. New MF and lucian are 10000x better than her at dominating the lane, and still have some decent siege as well as teamfight, which caitlyn does NOT have. She pretty much just sucks. Coming from a person with over 150 games on her in norms before

OdinakosJan 12, 201633 votes

Ap cait? Is this a joke? I am all for offmeta and curious builds but even AP Vayne was better than AP Cait. Lich bane, maybe nashors, rest ap. Trumble + Ult for a lot damage spread among all three dmg types(around 50%m-25%ph-25%true if i recall well). Seriously complaining about changing her Q animation would be more serious.

Cait is among the top siegers in the game with her traps and range, MF and Lucian can't even compare to her. Her teamfight is indeed weak but at 6 items due to her safety, she can be better than them depending on team comps. Yes the meta makes her suffer as she is outbullied by those two, but old Cait would suffer more. So no the rework does not plain sucks.

Masala ChaiJan 12, 20169 votes

AP Cait has cheesecakes instead of cupcakes. With AP Maokai or Shaco, it literally is maximum cheese.

KotexJan 12, 201628 votes

Now that you mention it yea... Caitlyn is or was presumably the top range ADC, and while she stil has the highest AA range, Jhin's overall range is still superior, with his similar kit. Thats kind of messed up now that i think about them just pushing Caitlyn aside like that :<

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 12, 20164 votes

The thing is: that small difference in attack range doesn't mean anything. Attack Range might be one of the most boring and yet unfair strenght a champ can bring into the game. Has massive impact, yet goes mostly by unnoticed as it is always "just there".

Jhin overall is more versatile and I see absolutely no reason to pick Cait over him tbh.

JbelsJan 12, 201641 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cZrkXdEq,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-01-12T19:51:01.969+0000)

The thing is: that small difference in attack range doesn't mean anything. Attack Range might be one of the most boring and yet unfair strenght a champ can bring into the game. Has massive impact, yet goes mostly by unnoticed as it is always "just there".

Jhin overall is more versatile and I see absolutely no reason to pick Cait over him tbh.

Better DPS off of Autos, the ult for Cait is actually single target, traps root, and Cait has a form of disengage, even if it isn't the strongest? I think there's still enough qualities to cait to justify picking her over Jhin

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 12, 201611 votes

If your trap gives a small root or an AoE-Slow zone doesn't really matter, especially since his traps are invisible and you can actually bait enemies into them - instead of having to hope some dumbass actually steps into them.

Also, movementspeeds from crits, that's his passive. I doubt he will need a disengage spell as badly as Cait does, especially since he could just AA->W->E to buy himself some time.

There are few things that Cait does better than him, but the few she does probably do not weight up the advantages and versatility Jhin can offer.

JbelsJan 12, 201617 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cZrkXdEq,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T19:58:49.309+0000)

If your trap gives a small root or an AoE-Slow zone doesn't really matter, especially since his traps are invisible and you can actually bait enemies into them - instead of having to hope some dumbass actually steps into them.

Also, movementspeeds from crits, that's his passive. I doubt he will need a disengage spell as badly as Cait does, especially since he could just AA->W->E to buy himself some time.

There are few things that Cait does better than him, but the few she does probably do not weight up the advantages and versatility Jhin can offer.

You haven't even seen his base stats yet. He could be hit in that department to compensate for his insane range. If anything, this is the death of Varus, who is basically the worse Jhin from the looks of it

SaltyToplaneGoatJan 12, 201611 votes

Ah Varus... yes, that champion also exists, I almost forgot that...

MiraweaveJan 12, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cZrkXdEq,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-01-12T19:51:01.969+0000)

The thing is: that small difference in attack range doesn't mean anything. Attack Range might be one of the most boring and yet unfair strenght a champ can bring into the game. Has massive impact, yet goes mostly by unnoticed as it is always "just there".

Jhin overall is more versatile and I see absolutely no reason to pick Cait over him tbh.

Because cait's a better champion in almost every way?

Cait has disengage. Cait gets crit and AS so she'll have higher DPS. Cait's an incredibly safe laner. Cait has the highest AA range in the game.

KrinuJan 12, 20164 votes

Don't both Trist and Jinx out-range her?

NOHRIAN SKUMJan 13, 20163 votes

Trist outranges her at Lv 16. Jinx outranges her when her Q is at Lv3, but suffers having less attack speed when using Fish Bones, which is notable when fighting early levels.

Big picture bois. Not just about range or a singular statistic.

Zorae42Jan 12, 201628 votes

No no no. Caitlyn is sniper in theme only. She's all about the consistent long range AA harass (which the new champ lacks). With decent utility/safety with traps/net.

This is the date Varus becomes obsolete. His niche of long range AD poke has been thoroughly trumped.

LatticeGrimoireJan 12, 20162 votes

But She Was the Sniper? They just had the option to give her a full up date and they did very little with it. And if she really is the Long range AA and Utility then they should give her a R that supports that.

Random TaskJan 13, 20162 votes

Like a longe range single target, high damage shot?

LatticeGrimoireJan 13, 20161 votes

Like some thing that helps her in her tower Siege role that she has been forced in to. and before you say her R does no it does not. when you are Sieging around 1/2 the time there are several enemies defending it so your R will always be intercepted.

Random TaskJan 13, 20163 votes

Pls, don't assume what I'm going to say. Her R is to pick off low targets and has nothing to do with sieging. I feel she's more of zone control adc than siege, anyway. Siege is definitely more in the wheelhouse of Jinx or Tristana than Caitlyn. Caitlyn hasn't siege well since they stopped allowing headshot to stack and proc on towers.

DemiluniSJan 13, 20161 votes

I think they moved her from the sniper archtype, she's more of a control siege adc. She more focused on controling a zone than being a long range sniper

LatticeGrimoireJan 13, 20161 votes

They said many times during the PBE phase of the marksman update that they wanted to put her to the extreme of what a sniper champion could be. As for your statement about her being a siege both Jinx & Tristana have much better tower pushing capabilities that. So it comes down to zone control zone control to do what exactly?

DemiluniSJan 13, 20163 votes

They said many times during the PBE phase of the marksman update that they wanted to put her to the extreme of what a sniper champion could be.

When Meddler were asked what kind of niche every marksmen gonna fill, he said caitlyn is the premiere zone control adc, and it's reflected in her kit. The only ability that actually fits a sniper is her ultimate. she got the vibe of "I'm the sheriff of this town" rather than "I'm gonna snipe you from miles away"

So it comes down to zone control zone control to do what exactly?

It comes down to the fact that you're not gonna get to her territory, and if you do it's going to be a painful experience, it comes more to an action late game because she can capture a big zone with her traps and completely block an entrance to an area.

qetzelJan 12, 201611 votes

I'm not sure about that. We haven't seen the virtuoso's cooldowns yet. Varus' Q also does AOE damage to champions.

Without numbers I am not sure we can judge this.

Zorae42Jan 12, 20163 votes

True, maybe his abilities have super long CDs. Although the fact that his aa's wont directly scale off of AS and Crit but his abilities will(do to the dmg scaling from them), makes me think he will be more ability focused and they won't be on too long of a CD. It's especially irritating that he won't be wasting any stats by buying Essence Reaver/IE/shiv (or whatever).

Varus' Q does significantly reduced damage to additional targets. And its damage in general falls off pretty hard late game.

Venom StoneiceJan 12, 201611 votes

Coming into this as a Varus main, I really don't think Varus is just outclassed by Jhin. One of Jhin's weaknesses is that he has mediocre basic attack range, which means he will not be a lane bully. Varus is one of the strongest lane bullies in bot lane right now, which is something Jhin will never be.

Further, Varus' poke will likely be more efficient, and without knowing numbers I'm not sure Jhin's will even come close to competing. And don't underestimate the Grievous Wounds that Varus can use.

PeponiPoroJan 13, 20162 votes

Grievous wounds and percent health damage make him a terror against tanky supports. He is most certainly still viable. Jhin's damage is focused on to killing, last hitting. He has two things in his kit that do increased damage on low health targets. They may be somewhat similar, but they ARE most CERTAINLY different champions with different weaknesses and strengths. This is my long worded way of saying yeah, you're right.

DrOinkleBerryJan 12, 201617 votes

Jhin is definitely NOT a sniper archetype. So what if he's sniping during his ultimate? Caitlyn is sniping on all her basic attacks, even more with her passive, AND with her ultimate. Jhin has pathetic range outside his ultimate, and his W is long range, but it's obviously a magic bullet: he doesn't use his sniper attachment to shoot his W. Cait's ultimate also has as long or longer range than Jhin's ult. The only "sniping" advantage his ult has over her's is that he can shoot into the fog of war... which doesn't matter if he can't see the enemies anyway.

Jhin is a magic gunman with a penchant for using his enemy's corpses to decorate the scene. Caitlyn is an investigator with a variety of clever traps and a deadly aim with her sniper rifle. They are obviously distinctly different archetypes from one another.

SnugglePuggle94Jan 12, 20164 votes

Well done, m8. Well done. [zombie-brand-clap]

ProfDrDeathJan 12, 20162 votes

From his kit's description, I actually think that Jhin is also somewhat of a take on the Sniper archetype. Just a different one from Caitlyn.

Cait heavily draws from the designated marksman-aspect of what is commonly called "Sniper". A dedicated marksman is the member of a squad that wields a long-range rifle and provides long-range fire support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman

Jhin, on the other hand, is more of a real sniper - who work alone or, more commonly, in pairs of a shooter and a spotter that regularily switch roles (think Price/MacCallan of the Tschernobyl mission in Modern Warfare). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper

However, both Jhin and Cait do not just draw from the Sniper archetype and its suptypes, as you said.

DrOinkleBerryJan 13, 20162 votes

I would agree mostly, it's just the problem I have with comparing Jhin to a sniper is that he doesn't intrinsically focus on it. When he uses W, it's obviously magical and artistic, not a precision strike. When he does start "sniping" with R, it seems less about the technique and more about the spectacle. Caitlyn however literally focuses on sniping in conjunction with tricks & traps.

But I can agree the whole "long-range-spooky-damage-from-fog-of-war" definitely seems deviously similar to a Sniper archetype. It's just that I think the focus isn't thematically leaning towards that.

MiraweaveJan 12, 20164 votes

Yeah, but cait's the champion who just kind of automatically wins lane when she's strong. Jihn doesn't have 650 attack range.

Thematically? Eh maybe.

Functionally they're totally different champions.

Carpe VictoriaJan 12, 20164 votes

Cait's an AA based champ and they've made Jhin based around using skills.

"Jhin’s crits deal less damage than normal, and his attack speed doesn’t actually scale with attack speed. Instead, Jhin gains attack damage from any attack speed and crit chance he earns through itemization and runes, while crits give him a burst of movement based on his attack speed."

The description infers he's basically the complete opposite of an AA based champ.

1000angrybeesJan 13, 20164 votes

Jhin seems to compliment teammates while being somewhat weak on his own, forcing him to play opportunistically; Cait is supposed to hit from long range with her Autos and abilties, scoring massive damage if she comboes her traps, net, headshots and crits.

They're similar, but not the same. Not by a long shot Caitlyn

SithesisLordJan 13, 20164 votes

Does he have a Headhunter skin though?

PennsJan 12, 20163 votes

He has to reload tho... and his traps only snare if you hit W as well... and we dont know his aa range yet, do we?

LatticeGrimoireJan 12, 20164 votes

So Caitlyn should have had that R end of story

MiraweaveJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So should have had that R end of story

Maybe she should, maybe she shouldn't.

The point remains that Cait's way better at the stuff she's good at than Jihn will be since he's not safe and doesn't have the aa range (which is what matters).

LatticeGrimoireJan 12, 20162 votes

does completely outstripped her fantasy of being a sniper. which is what she was originally sold as when she was released. I understand that she has changed into a tower pushing champion.