I do understand that Akali as an assassin needs massive damage and mobility, but...

SaltyToplaneGoat·Jul 30, 2017·170 votes·6,255 views

... just what the hell is up with that sustain?! Every time I face her on toplane and I out-trade her, she just proceeds to last hit and is suddenly healthier than I am. If a Vlad does this, then that's ok because he doesn't trimple dash into my backline to make a massacre therel later.

But Akali? it just feels completly wrong on a fundamental level. You see, I can defend hard cc on an assassin if the entire kit is designed around it , but sustain? That one mechanic reserved for supports and tanks (and Vlad)? The mechanic of an archetype that is so absolutely not-assassin as it can get, and yet it's right there. In an assassin kit.

It just feels so unfair.

207 Comments

THE RlVER KlNGJul 30, 201759 votes

And it's not like she buys the one item built for nuking you and sustaining whilst doing so.

item 3146

Nanuk PihoqahiakJul 30, 201741 votes

Akali's first basic attack heals her for 5 - 60 (based on level) (+ 60% bonus AD) (+ 45% AP) health.

It's definitely not just Gunblade. The scaling on her passive is pretty good too.

LankPantsJul 30, 201736 votes

but sustain? That one mechanic reserved for supports and tanks (and Vlad)?

Let's list off the things that aren't supports, tanks or Vlad (you already have an exception to your own rule, nice) that have sustain.

Aatrox Ahri Akali Camille Darius DrMundo Elise Fiddlesticks Fiora Gangplank Hecarim Illaoi Irelia Karma Kayle Kayn Khazix Kindred LeeSin MasterYi Nasus Nidalee Nocturne Olaf RekSai Renekton Rengar Swain Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Volibear Warwick XinZhao Yorick

Feel like this entire argument's complete and utter bullshit yet?

There's even other assassins in this list as well, Kha'Zix is unarguably an assassin and Nid/Rengar/Nocturne can be assassins.

Edit: Since making this list I've been informed that Morgana is a champion and Talon has a heal on Q. Cassiopeia Lissandra Mordekaiser and Singed should most likely be there too.

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 30, 20177 votes

You listed a ton of tanks and supports here. Actually, you just proved MY point. Thanks.

LankPantsJul 30, 201713 votes

I listed 0 tanks or supports except Ivern who is arguable and who I didn't really mean to put there. Every other champ is a Juggernaut, Assassin, ADC, Bruiser or Mage.

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 30, 20176 votes

[deleted]

LankPantsJul 30, 201714 votes

Let's just keep it with classy Assassins: . . Do any of these champions have tools to sustain themselves through a laning phase of bad trading?

You actually failed to produce a list of assassins without sustain even though you cherrypicked Kha'zix, Rengar and Nocturne (maybe Nid) out of your list.

The champion on your list who definitely isn't an assassin by any stretch of the imagination in Elise certainly has sustain. Elise's spider form auto attacks heal her, but both the fact you list her as an assassin and the fact that you claim she has no sustain shows just how little you know about what you're talking about.

Also Kha'zix, unarguably an assassin, has a heal on his W Nocturne, mostly an assassin, has a heal on his passive Rengar, mostly an assassin has a heal on his W

These 3 champions are more assassin than not, when you consider them, alongside Akali and your other traditional assassins minus Elise (because get real) you find that 36% of all assassins have sustain. Your point is garbage.

Also, what's the matter, can't form a coherent argument so you jump onto your smurfs to downvote spam me and upvote spam yourself? Truely pathetic.

GrimspeakeJul 30, 201714 votes

{quoted}

So Volibear is not a tank for you? OH BULLSHIT. We are talking about GENERAL ARCHETYPES. Not fancy buzzwords Riot comes up to name some variations of it.

Also Karma is a support, and officially so is Kayle. Also most other champs stated do not have sustain powerful enough to just keep them in lane after bad trades.

I wonder if you are that stupid or if you intentionally misread everything I stated just so you could be that "Uhm, ÄCTUALLY"-nerd everyone hates.

Let's just keep it with classy Assassins: . . Do any of these champions have tools to sustain themselves through a laning phase of bad trading? No they don't, and that's for the simple reaosn that they are ASSASSINS. It's the general archetype that a so highly offensive class doesn't play the healer, not even for themselves.

Elise has innate sustain bud

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 30, 20171 votes

1.) Is Elise a laner?

2.) Would her sustain be even relevant in lane?

The answer to both is no. God all these smartasses everyone too dense to grasp a simple concept. No surprise Riot avoids tis board like the plague lol.

GrimspeakeJul 30, 20179 votes

{quoted}

1.) Is Elise a laner?

2.) Would her sustain be even relevant in lane?

The answer to both is no. God all these smartasses everyone too dense to grasp a simple concept. No surprise Riot avoids tis board like the plague lol.

the concept is simple, stop letting her auto minions for free. stop shoving the wave into her tower. freeze it, deny her. its a fucking akali top if she comes up for the wave u just kill her before she can get back to tower.

LostFr0stJul 30, 20179 votes

Talon has a heal on his Q :3

LankPantsJul 30, 20175 votes

I wasn't even aware of that, thanks for bringing it up though.

GULAG 4 UJul 30, 20174 votes

It's like 25 hp. Relevant shit ya know.

LankPantsJul 30, 20171 votes

It's 26 at level 3. Akali's heal at level 3 is 9+60% bonus AD+45% AP, normally around 25-35. In the late game Akali's heal will outpace, but in the early game they're pretty similar.

yesnobananaJul 30, 20173 votes

But Talon's Q cost mana, Akali have it on her AA's.

LankPantsJul 30, 20171 votes

It's also on about half the CD when he kills a creep with it, meaning he can actually heal more HP more quickly in the early game if he's willing to dump the mana.

yesnobananaJul 30, 20173 votes

if he's willing to dump the mana

exactly

LankPantsJul 30, 20173 votes

It also refunds half the mana on unit kill, so it's not that much.

The point still stands though, Talon is an assassin with sustain, as are Rengar, Kha'zix and Nocturne. The claim that Akali is the only assassin with sustain and that assassins shouldn't have sustain that the OP tried to make is utter bullshit.

Mews99Jul 30, 20172 votes

Since when is DrMundo not a tank!?

LankPantsJul 30, 20175 votes

One of the defining traits of tanks is that they have hard CC. Mundo has no hard CC. He's a juggernaut.

ShahamutJul 30, 20174 votes

For everyone reading this: Juggernaut is a subclass of Fighter, not tank. Mundo is not a tank.

FacerollKatarinaJul 30, 201735 votes

{quoted}

Let's list off the things that aren't supports, tanks or Vlad (you already have an exception to your own rule, nice) that have sustain.

Feel like this entire argument's complete and utter bullshit yet?

dont forget every single champ who builds lifesteal

LankPantsJul 30, 20175 votes

If you counted that you could also list every other ADC, Jax, Riven, Zed, Talon, LB, Kat and Yasuo. Probably a couple more too, I don't know every champions build.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 30, 20173 votes

I think we can also include increase HP/lvl so that every champion builds sustain :]

Beas7ieJul 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Let's list off the things that aren't supports, tanks or Vlad (you already have an exception to your own rule, nice) that have sustain.

Feel like this entire argument's complete and utter bullshit yet?

There's even other assassins in this list as well, Kha'Zix is unarguably an assassin and Nid/Rengar/Nocturne can be assassins.

Keep in mind though, a lot of those are limited by mana. Akali is not. She can stay in lane all damn day and keep up that sustain.

While bursting through your entire team later on.

LankPantsJul 30, 20175 votes

OK, but Aatrox, Mundo, Lee Sin, Rek'sai, Renekton, Rengar and Trynd aren't restricted by mana either and when you consider how small of a percentage of the champ pool are manaless that's pretty proportional.

It's also worth noting Elise, Fiora, Irelia, Kayn, Nasus, Noctune, Trundle, Voli and Xin can all pay nothing and still sustain.

TheBurningAshesJul 30, 20172 votes

Wouldn't morg be in this list too?

LankPantsJul 30, 20173 votes

She should be, you are correct.

When you're listing off 30ish champions you're inevitably going to miss one or two.

I've got a couple more I'm going to edit into the first post at this point.

BigBellBruteJul 30, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Let's list off the things that aren't supports, tanks or Vlad (you already have an exception to your own rule, nice) that have sustain.

Feel like this entire argument's complete and utter bullshit yet?

There's even other assassins in this list as well, Kha'Zix is unarguably an assassin and Nid/Rengar/Nocturne can be assassins.

Edit: Since making this list I've been informed that is a champion and has a heal on Q. and should most likely be there too.

Stop interrupting our rant with facts. Downvote for you!!!!!

LankPantsJul 30, 201720 votes

Pretty much. This anti Akali circle jerk goes beyond stupid, it's wilfully ignorant and actively denying facts. If you want to hate Akali that's one thing, when you start arguing utter nonsense and downvoting a purely factual post I no longer have any respect for you.

Steel BlossomJul 30, 201714 votes

You now why Akali can sustain herself through shit trades in lane like that? Because she literally has no good trades...everybody shits on her early. Even Kassadin.

PePsiLemoNNJul 30, 20173 votes

That's the point? She is shit early until she hits her level 6 and after that item 3146

CasterGilgameshJul 30, 20175 votes

she isnt particularly good late game though since at the end game she gots blown up since she has no other way to get onto the ac besides her ult and it has an internal CD so now every support tank or mage will just root stun or knock her up and the adc will just delete her

Teridax68Jul 30, 201714 votes

Akali was always intended to be a fighter-assassin hybrid, and is technically the OG hybrid diver-assassin before even Rengar. The core problem with Akali is that, in spite of her extreme offensive mobility, she has very few escapes, which is bad for an assassin champion. As a result, she needs a means to survive fights while or after reaching her target, and for her that translated into having self-healing. The result is a fairly binary champion who can out-damage and out-live you when she gets ahead, but who otherwise can't do anything right when she's behind. Depending on how this goes, this feels especially terrible for either Akali or her opponent, so even though she's technically balanced right now, she's bound to feel frustrating to either play or play against.

Also worth mentioning is that innate self-sustain is most common on fighters, a class Akali is technically a part of, and is rarer on tanks, while sustain on supports is generally meant to be used on allies as well (marksmen also have lots of self-sustain, but purely from itemization). In that respect, Akali having sustain isn't unusual in itself, even if self-healing is generally very harshly gated on assassins. Ekko, Shadow Assassin Kayn, Kha'Zix, Rengar are all assassins with self-healing, for example, but unlike Akali none of them can really use their sustain consistently enough to top themselves up all the time.

MonotachiJul 30, 20175 votes

People don't realise that Akali is not an assassin. She has always played like a melee AP hypercarry, like an AP Yi of sorts. That's why she has sustain, because she's not a true assassin. By design, she trades 100-0 burst power and escapes for sustained damage, short cooldowns and chasing power.

The idea behind her passive (old one) is a dualing scaling hybrid hypercarry passive. Like the ones Jax and Kayle used to have. She has resets - again, adding to her carry-like nature. Out of all the assassins, she also has poor escapes. A blink on her shroud is not an escape. It's used to juke skillshots, but otherwise, she has a stationary circle that tells you where she is. It's a stall mechanic for her cooldowns.

Everything in Akali's kit is actually there for a reason. It's not stuff that's randomly thrown in.

Over InnsmouthJul 30, 201713 votes

If a Vlad does this, then that's ok

The first time I've ever heard that phrase in regards to literally anything.

MelledoneusJul 30, 20172 votes

You've been hanging out too muh in Gameplay.

On an unrelated note, what's your favorite Castlevania game?

Over InnsmouthJul 30, 20174 votes

Wow, just because I'm a Vlad main and I like Dracula things and Japanese things you think I like Castlevania?

...It's a tie between Dawn of Sorrow and Order of Ecclesia. Portrait of Ruin isnt bad, and I have a soft spot for the Lords of Shadow games, even if they're mediocre and not really Castlevania.

Still havent played Symphony of the Night, it's 100% on my to-do list.

RankOneUgandaJul 30, 20179 votes

Old akali. can one shot you. but her sustain scaled late. was shit early

new akali. her sustain is too strong early game that it became impossible to poke her out before 6. that was THE AKALI counterplay. because she was so strong at 6. and still is. you had to poke her out. now you freakin cant

BigBellBruteJul 30, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Old akali. can one shot you. but her sustain scaled late. was shit early

new akali. her sustain is too strong early game that it became impossible to poke her out before 6. that was THE AKALI counterplay. because she was so strong at 6. and still is. you had to poke her out. now you freakin cant

If it's impossible, how come Akali has less than a 50% win rate in the mid lane and just above it in top. Someone must be countering her.

rtbf30982911Jul 30, 20172 votes

According to op.gg she has a 53,5% win rate top and a 50,5% winrate mid. That's not bad at all.

I faced a noob Akali player recently and i tried my best to push her out of lane pre 6, but as soon as she hit 6 and gunblade it was completely impossible to handle. Ganking her is also really hard since shroud is now a "dash" as well as giving stealth for a moment while exiting, meaning she can get away through jungle or her own lane.

Also the mixed damage is kinda stupid, she deals more or less exactly 50/50 meaning any top laner has a really hard time itemizing against her.

Invisibility, dashes, sustain, ranged poke, tower pushing, mixed damage, and perfect syngergy with gunblade just leads to a quite overbearing champ. At least back in the day you could pink the shroud to trade better or actually see her when your jungler came to gank.

Horse GrenadesJul 30, 20179 votes

It's not her "sustain" that is the problem. It's her ability to drain tank multiple rotations, it's a function of a "fighter" and not an assassin

CasterGilgameshJul 30, 20173 votes

fighter is her secondary role and she has less mobility in team fights than the other assassins besides Talon but at least he can use his stealth to get to people faster or at least live through his burst combo

Horse GrenadesJul 30, 20174 votes

She can go invisible with no counter play, she can now blink over walls and she has a triple dash that does damage. She can't parkour over every wall, but she's not limited in the mobility department

CasterGilgameshJul 30, 20172 votes

well her dash is an ult so thats already less then kat and talon now ill give you that its 3 dashes but they have an internal cooldown and she cant really use it as an escape at least talon can parkour over walls kat is too mobile in combat to allow her that luxry of ward hoping but still she can dodge tons of stuff with it since she can dash to allies Zed goes where zed pleases Leblanc got 2 dashes plus 2 blinks for each dash kass is kass.so compared to akali they all have better mobility tools so...you know she should have something to help her live to actually get her burst combo off

BârdJul 30, 20176 votes

Akali's passive healing is, in the early game, akin to Cho'gath or Nasus.

Yes, it's pretty decent healing, but she has to put herself in harms way to get it, and she's not exactly healing for Mundo numbers here.

If you keep chipping down Akali to 80% health and then are surprised when she sustains off the creeps, that's your own damn fault.

Like Nasus/Cho, you have to trade extensively, something Akali isn't great at before her gunblade.

An Akali who is nearly full can just auto the creeps to top herself off.

If an Akali at 25% health tries that shit, she will die getting that heal.

Jeanne fan clubJul 30, 20176 votes

uhh hehe, a vlad will dash onto your backline and massacre everybody.

The problem here is that during the assassin update, they tried to stick with Akali's lore while changing her passive. It seems like a good idea in theory, change the passive from a scaling one into a bursting one, and make the second proc do damage to extend the burst window.

Perhaps Riot should make the heal only work 30% against minions, kind of like how vladmir's empowered Q works.

But tbh, what happened to make Akali banworthy? I haven't seen any threads about her until now, and every thing they just changed about her doesn't seem to be too severe. She doesn't abuse duskblade either so what exactly am I missing?

LankPantsJul 30, 20175 votes

But tbh, what happened to make Akali banworthy?

Nothing, that's why her banrate is still well under average.

This whole bullshit-fest is a small subsection of the boards that's managed to convince itself it's right. Give it a week and it'll blow over.

HensetsuJul 30, 20171 votes

You wanna know why Akali feels so broken?

People don't like Tanks.

SaltyToplaneGoatJul 30, 20173 votes

Oh hey look the class with the lowest damage who's benefit is that they survive one second longer before the enemy adc shreds them into pieces anyways.

I wonder why playing that class is not so popular.

HMM I WONDER WHY.