A Note to Riot and Players: The More % Health Damage Someone Has, the Tankier They Will Build

Meep Man··67 votes·6,557 views

This is due to the fact that the champion's damage scales with the enemy's defenses, meaning they already have innate damage scaling beyond leveling up. It's like having an item already strapped onto your kit that boosts your damage, so you if you wanna have a balanced build, you will get a defensive item on top of it. Champions who have flat damage won't scale with their enemies' defenses. Therefore, they need to rely on ratios and therefore bonus AD and AP to have their damage remain effective throughout the game.

Remember this when designing and playing new champions. If you want someone to be a Bruiser, give them % based Anti-Tank options and a few moderate ratios to make them build majority tanky. If you want someone to be a pure Tank, give them all flat damage, but absolutely no decent ratios to discourage them from building damage. If you want someone to be a Assassin/Damage-Based Mage, give them flat based Anti-Tank options and good ratios to make them build majority damage with a small amount of tank, if any at all. If you want someone to be a Marksman, give them a tiny bit, if any Anti-Tank options and great ratios, but make sure they have sustained damage, in order to make them build full damage to make sure their DPS remains consistent throughout the game. If you want someone to be a Support, you will have to go kit to kit and inspect what exactly they need to make them be built Support.

NOTE: I'm not saying DON'T give someone % Health damage or DO give someone % Health damage. I'm just saying be prepared for what USUALLY comes with it. I'm also not saying that IF a champion has % Health damage, they will build tanky. It will just push them in that direction unless something else forces them or provides a better reason to build damage.

55 Comments

Zerenza16 votes

Well...some champions have % Damage to prevent them from bursting someone to quickly, like with Evelynn, while she is getting a rework her ultimate used to do Flat Damage, but it's done max HP damage for a long time, she still builds full AP by the way.

Or for Kled, who's W and Ultimate have percentage HP damage, if they made him do flat HP damage he would litterally yolo dive your AD and one shot them, he can still kill someone though but it's much more difficult and he builds full damage.

Fiora, same thing, she builds full damage and was giving % HP damage so she wouldn't be massively oppressive with flat damage auto's early game and so that we would have 1 of 3 tank shredder's to help keep the game in line. Vel'koz, full damage, vayne, full damage two more examples.

It's actually pretty rare that them having % HP damage actually results in them building tanky, the only two cases that are actually worth noting are of course Ekko and Fizz, their damage didn't go down if they built tanky due to their high damage on % HP and for fizz it's his W currently. But it's not just that, their stickyness and escape ability triumphs over tanks, meaning the tank can't do anything and ekko and fizz tank builds dominate.

Other champions such as Poppy and Sion are given it so that they can do a little bit of damage and actually fend of other top laner's properly without, again, being able to burst squishes to easily.

Personally i'm ad advocate for percentage HP damage, usually only on someones ultimate but i prefer the %HP damage over flat damage in many cases for balance purposes. It helps keep A LOT of thing's in line and many champions would be way more oppressive with flat damage than % HP damage.

Steelflame3 votes

Fizz lost his %hp damage, just fyi. It's just flat bleed that if he uses his W on a target who has bled for at least 2 seconds gets triple damage proc instead of normal damage proc.

The entire reason Fizz is building tank is just because he needs to be able to stay in the fight long enough to use that W, and if he's there he may as well use it a few times.

Meep Man2 votes

I'm not saying DON'T give someone % Health damage or DO give someone % Health damage. I'm just saying be prepared for what USUALLY comes with it. I'm also not saying that IF a champion has % Health damage, they will build tanky. It will just push them in that direction unless something else forces them or provides a better reason to build damage.

Zerenza2 votes

Well...what i'm saying is that % Max HP doesn't "Usually" cause anything, there are only 2 cases of it happening recently and one case last year with Fiora's tank build. Other than that most champions that have Max HP do not build tanky and never have a problem with it but that's, as you said because they have incentive to build damage instead.

3TWarrior1 votes

ekko, fiora, fizz, lee, zac, Elise , Evelynn , malzahar did it once but he had no incentive with most of his damage in AP ratios, sejuani (who was nerfed for it ), nasus(though his entire kit encourages it), Varus (was actually a thing once but it fell off in favor of dps marksmen), Vayne (this...should...never...be...tanky), Warwick (had a kit where he had little choice but to build tanky unless he went hybrid or full AP...his Q was so funny to do that with XD), Yorick (his whole kit was based around AD and AP ratios but his most efficient build was tank and i've not kept up but it still seems to be)

and I believe that is every case ever of abusable %hp damage that had a history of going tank build instead of normal build paths

as for why I switched between text and pictures, text champions were champions so recent that I could list them off the top of my head for this problem

Carniverous5 votes

As far as I know, Eve's ult has never done Max damage. It currently dose % currently health. As her opponent looses HP, her ult looses damage. So having flat damage on her ult would be a buff, anywhere past 75% of their max HP I think.

Are they really reworking her?

Done253 votes

{quoted}

As far as I know, Eve's ult has never done Max damage. It currently dose % currently health. As her opponent looses HP, her ult looses damage. So having flat damage on her ult would be a buff, anywhere past 75% of their max HP I think.

Are they really reworking her?

V1.0.0.143 "Agony's Embrace - New R Evelynn impales all enemies in the targeted area, dealing 15 / 20 / 25% (+1% per 50 AP) of their maximum health as magic damage and slowing them by 30 / 50 / 70% for 2 seconds. Evelynn then siphons their pain, gaining a 150 / 225 / 300 shield for each enemy champion hit, lasting up to 6 seconds."

V1.0.0.154 (Aka. The death of Evelynn) "Base damage changed to 15 / 20 / 25% of target's current health from 15 / 20 / 25% maximum. Cooldown increased to 150 / 120 / 90 seconds from 120 / 90 / 60. Cast range reduced to 650 from 800."

You're welcome.

Blackstone014 votes

The death of Evelynn wasn't a single change, it was a drawn out process as riot over time realized they don't want her building AP, Tank, AD, or AP again.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

The death of Evelynn wasn't a single change, it was a drawn out process as riot over time realized they don't want her building AP, Tank, AD, or AP again.

It was a very slow death, but that was when it started.

Zerenza1 votes

Yeah but it was well deserved and her rework will, hopefully, be a welcomed one but i do really feel sorry for evelynn one tricks because she is still really good and effective if your good with her so when they rework her it's going to hurt them alittle but that's how it is with every rework.

It's well deserved because being permanantly invisible was, well overpowered so the rest of her kit had to be nerfed to hell as a result and she went from an assassin to a fighter and that's a no go with riot who wants her to be an assassin again.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

This is literally from Season 1. It was hardly the death of Evelynn.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

This is literally from Season 1. It was hardly the death of Evelynn.

46.5% winrate, and a 1% play rate. Meanwhile, over at Lee Sin's place...

3TWarrior1 votes

well, before her many reworks, she used to have a very high pick and ban rate

at one point, her most famous stage was the infamous Sunfire Evelynn

back then unique passives did not exist or were not used for sunfire and she could do 200 DPS while invisible

then they changed that...and she still had an assassin kit to back her up

then they changed that and players are like...okay, how do we play this?

then they changed that and players went...okay....why would I play this?

then they changed that and she saw a minor surge in popularity but got beaten into submission by simultaneous buffs to other junglers

then you have what we have today and the new PBE buffs

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Where are you getting your statistics from??

I've found she normally hovers around 49 - 50% With Mains topping pretty insane numbers.

junglerboy164 votes

To be fair on a lot of these that you're mentioning, they fix the issue of "% HP makes one build tanky" by giving them substantial incentives to build damage instead.

Evelynn's damage is too low without investing in items now, and she doesn't offer enough utility to function as a tanky fighter (anymore, cuz she certainly used to play that way)

Kled builds damage to capitalize on his main steroid which is a strong AS buff and his multiple AD scalings, and the important part is his % damage scales strongly off his main offensive stat (5% per 100 AD on W and 12% per 100 AD on R is very strong).

Fiora, same as kled, wants to capitalize off her high scalings (again effecting her % damage directly)

Those champs who have % HP damage without a noticeable scaling on it or a lack of utility tend towards very tanky builds. There have been several instances of champs abusing this, some using this intentionally, and several being pushed to have high scalings to re-incentivize building damage and eliminate unhealthy tank builds

Troll for Trump1 votes

Other % health tank abusers Fiora Lee Sin MasterYi Vi

ON-hit effects can sometimes produce similar effects

Whip it good1 votes

Fiora needs ad to have her %hp damage

Troll for Trump1 votes

But Tank Fiora was a thing fresh off the jugger update

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Tbf Tank Fiora was fresh thing off of her immediate VGU, it's just that it got WORSE come the Juggernaut update.

Starcraft243ver3 votes

The direct corrollary being : the more you add %HP damages to the champion pool the less you want to build tanky in general.

Meep Man2 votes

Not necasserily. That would be true if half the champion pool faced he other half of the champion pool. It depends on each game. The only form of damage that cannot be countered by any means is % Max Health True Damage, since the only counter to true damage is to build health. All other % Health damage can be countered by building Armor or Magic Resist since it will still be reduced due to it being Physical or Magic damage.

The only match where I would recommend not building much Tank, if any at all, would be if the enemy team had: Vayne Fiora Garen ...all on the same team.

Champion Skin2 votes

That depends somewhat

If the champion has high % damage and some decently high base damages but with high cooldowns then the champion might actually end up building penetration to just unload their damage and try to kill the enemy since while yes they have % damage it doesn't actually help much to build tanky if that durability doesn't allow you to get in more ability casts (it has too long cooldown)

Also even if you give a champion really bad ratios they can still build damage... there are penetration items which work well with % damage or high base damage or things like Titanic Hydra which adds some damage and it also adds quite a bit of burst with AA + active or items like Sheen (which only depends on short cooldown abilities to trigger it and base AD) or Sunfire (though it did get hit quite hard)

Meep Man2 votes

There a few items that support champions with "unusual" forms of damage. Your example of both high % damage and high base damage is rare and doesn't usually happen. The closest example I could think of is Lee Sin on his Q, but I don't know about that.

To be fair, an ability with insanely high base damage and % health damage that is ALSO a basic ability might just be poorly designed as it sounds just like a "kill anything I look at" kind of ability. If it is an ultimate then that is another thing, but those are expected to have high cool downs and few champions base their entire build around their ultimate and not their general kit.

Also your point about penetration items to me is ok. There isn't enough penetration items in the game to make a full build out of them unless you are AD, but there are very few champions that are both considered Tanks and also scale with AD. (for this exact reason)

Titanic Hydra is the only item that defies this, but forces you to basic attack to really make use of it, which usually doesn't tie in well on most Tanks kits.

Champion Skin1 votes

be fair, an ability with insanely high base damage and % health damage that is ALSO a basic ability might just be poorly designed as it sounds just like a "kill anything I look at" kind of ability. If it is an ultimate then that is another thing, but those are expected to have high cool downs and few champions base their entire build around their ultimate and not their general kit.

Such an ability could be possible without being broken you would just make it a zoning tool which would normally never hit but it would work for forcing the enemy to avoid that place (or they could stay if they are able to deal with the damage and it is worth it)

I am not talking about 1 ability I am talking about the kit overall since one ability usually don't decide what you build on the champion it is the kit in its entirety and usually you don't have % damage on all of your abilitys there is usually only 1 or 2 so the rest of the abilities likely have normal flat base damage (And base damage can be quite high but does depend a lot on reliability, cooldown and ratios/scaling)

Meep Man1 votes

Having % Health damage or any Anti-Tank mechanic on any one ability is usually enough to begin to warp the champion in the direction of how they build. For example, if Kled's W dealt flat damage, he would probably have to build more damage and/or CDR to be successful.

Reliability can warp a champion as well. % Health damage alone won't make them build one way, but it will push them in that direction as long as something bigger isn't pushing back.

Champion Skin1 votes

Titanic Hydra is the only item that defies this, but forces you to basic attack to really make use of it, which usually doesn't tie in well on most Tanks kits.

Also you don't really need to auto attack much... you just need to AA + active which will deal 11% of max hp +45 + 2 X AD (two auto attacks and the item also gives some AD) And on top of that it also helps with wave clear which can be quite useful

KoKoboto2 votes

It'd be nice if Rito could think of different ways to create bruisers other than % health damage or true damage. Something fresh. Trundle is a cool example I think, he has % health damage but it isn't core to him being a juggernaut bruiser type. I think at least.

Sniperblp1234 votes

Trundle is focused around the AD steal on his Q, The AS steroid on W and the decent area control of his pillar, the ult is just there to make him tankier depending on the target. So basically I agree.

Volibear Boss2 votes

FullTank Vayne confirmed?!

AmazoX1 votes

GA > PD > LD > Defensive Items.

  • 29% AS runes
  • 12 MR
  • 12 Armor

Tank buster vayne confirmed.

Bârd1 votes

:thinking:

Ralanr1 votes

Hey man...don't take away Sion's (and Poppy's) %max health damage. It helps with farming and trading.

Meep Man3 votes

Sion and Poppy were balanced around the fact that they are AD scaling Tanks which, no matter how much Riot tries, will act a little bit like Fighters in the laning phase and be naturally more attracted to building damage. Sion and Poppy are unique and have to be treated as such.

They are also both encouraged to build Tank in other ways, such as Poppy's W Passive and Sion's W and all that comes with it. Most Tanks have similar mechanics in their kits if their play style would normally shout "Fighter" rather than "Tank".

PeepingPeafowl7 votes

% health damage on tanks stops tank v tank match ups from being unable to kill each other. If you give them flat damage they end up bouncing off of each other. Flat damage is better against squishys and % health is better against tanks/bruisers.

UnboundHades1 votes

Fiora

Meep Man2 votes

Fiora builds half and half on the average patch... ok?

UnboundHades1 votes

percent health true damage that heals and grants a burst of ms on a passive

Meep Man2 votes

Ok?

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Not as valid an argument since the % health scales based on bonus AD, meaning she essentially deals no % health damage unless she builds damage.

undesirable team1 votes

Vayne

Meep Man2 votes

Vayne is balanced very specifically around her % health damage so Tank Vayne isn't possible.

Tranoze1 votes

item 3022 item 3078 item 3153 Tank Vayne is possible, but people prefer crit one.

Champion Skin1 votes

"Tank"/"bruiser" ADC's with stuff like item 3022 item 3156 item 3026 giving a mix of durability and damage and probably some additional damage items which scale well with the particular ADC .... such a build would probably work quite well 1v1.... however a normal ADC build deals way way more damage and is much more useful in teamfights where the ADC is usually protected and relied on for damage

Though for a top lane Vayne/ADC building in such a way might be for the best and since the team has another ADC they aren't relied on as much for team damage

Done251 votes

I think you're confusing HP% damage with damage that scales poorly.

Someone who does 1% max HP (+10% per 100 AD) would want a good amount of AD in their build, even though they have HP% damage. Someone who does a flat 300 magic damage would want to go tank as their damage has no additional scaling beyond penetration.

Tusutaki1 votes

Giving %HP damage is a east cop out way from doing any real balance and it hurts future champion designs and the game in the long run. When designing a new champion, they will also have to account for the current existing champions and give them an overloaded kit like Ekko or Lee Sin. It also discourages champion diversity since "generalists" seems to be the main focus now than ever vs actual counter picking and team comps.

Sohleks1 votes

They started adding % damage to top lane tanks a while back when they desired tanks to put a bit more of a dent in each other more (without having carry crushing base damages)

It works for a little bit until resistances start coming in. So it doesn't work that well. Better than nothing tho

Actually it does a lot for a tank's damage if on an ability that is leveled late. So it does more than 60 or 40 damage used on a carry in a teamfight without being a level one catastrophe

Elkington VI1 votes

%HP damage, more often than not, serves as a band-aid to make up for flaws in a champion's kit. If a champion has some glaring weaknesses in their kit, the easiest way to fix it is just to give them %hp damage, so they can stay relevant even when behind. Not only does it give them more defensive build options, but it keeps the player from feeling completely useless if they had a bad start, especially if their champion doesn't scale that well into late game.

6Sfool1 votes

This isn't an issue with % based damage so much as a lack of offensive scalings. Some champs have absurdly high base damages and no real scalings, so it's best for them to build tanky. % damage is just one of the more common non-scaling sources, but there are exceptions like with Varus's w. His most common offbuild is AP, not tank.

softest boy1 votes

I just wish they would change Sejuani's icebreaker ability's damage to be like 30 [+15 per level] [+30% of AP] rather than that absurd health percentage damage. . . I just want AP Sejuani back. T-T

Hexs Fortune1 votes

Kindred Had the highest percent health potential in game and built squishy for the most part

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