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Reading through Zed's change history in the last two seasons absolutely disgusts me

Altiverse··97 votes·17,513 views

All of this is taken from the compiled list here.

##7.17:

  • Base attack speed increased to 0.651 from 0.644.
  • W: Shadow duration increased to 5 seconds from 4.5.

##7.22:

  • Base attack damage increased to 63 from 54.712.
  • Base armor increased to 32 from 26.88.
  • Base health increased to 584 from 579.4.
  • Health growth increased to 85 from 80.

##8.3:

  • Base health regeneration reduced to 7 from 7.092.

##8.4:

  • R: Cooldown reduced to 120 / 90 / 60 seconds from 120 / 100 / 80.

##8.6:

  • Q: Secondary base damage reduced to 40 / 57.5 / 75 / 92.5 / 110 from 48 / 69 / 90 / 111 / 132.
  • Q: Secondary bonus AD ratio reduced to 45% bonus AD from 54%.
  • Q: Removed: Damage being reduced on shurikens that hit the same enemy.

##8.7:

  • Secondary bonus AD ratio increased to 54% bonus AD from 45%.
  • Secondary base damage increased to 48 / 69 / 90 / 111 / 132 from 40 / 57.5 / 75 / 92.5 / 110.

###In conclusion: He has received nothing but direct buffs since the Assassin Rework, with the exception of a 0.092 HP regen nerf which is an absolute joke.

What infuriates me the most however is how he got nerfed at 8.6 with a compensation, then immediately after at 8.7 the nerf was reverted to the exact previous numbers, while "forgetting" about the compensation. I can't help but feel that this falls nothing short of the balance team just laughing in your face.

131 Comments

koshkyra62 votes

He has recieved nothing but direct buffs

Nothing but direct buffs? How about indirect buffs?

  • summoner 14 buffed
  • summoner 7 nerfed
  • item 3047 nerfed
  • Mages nerfed
  • Shield supports nerfed
  • ADCs nerfed
  • Electrocute introduced

There's a lot more but I can't find them rn, there was a post about this a few months ago.

bbQsauçe11 votes

[deleted]

AmazoX7 votes

{quoted}

What about indirect nerfs?

Let me tell you something, lethality/armor pen is the weakest it's ever been in the history of this game ever and that's the reason Zed struggled for most of S8 and he still struggles in the early game.

So right now in Season 8 Riot Games TM, you can only get 10 lethality (conditionally, so your harass in lane doesn't even use it) from runes. So at 1 item powerspike, you'd have 28 lethality total which assuming you're level 9, equates to 22.4 flat armor pen.

Now let's compare it to previous seasons shall we?

Season 7, you could get 24 lethality from runes plus 6 from the precision mastery in the thunderlord's mastery tree. So you could start the game with 30 lethality unconditionally, your harass in lane would fully make use of it. At one item powerspike, you would have 48 lethality, which equates to 38.4 flat armor pen at level 9.

Season 6-5, you could get 19.22 FLAT armor pen in runes, around 5 from the precision mastery in the thunderlord's mastery tree, Youmuus gave 20 FLAT armor pen, so at 1 item spike, you'd end up with around 45 FLAT armor pen.

In Season 8, you basically need only a fully stacked item 3191 to nullify the lethality from item 3142 item 3147 + the Sudden Impact rune. Fully stacked seeker's is 45 armor. Youmuus + Dusk + Sudden Impact is 46 LETHALITY, so since it's lethality and not flat armor pen, you nullify the lethality and even more until late game when lethality has scaled, where the two things cancel each other out.

So a 1100 gold item nullifying 5800 gold of items, does that seem fair to you? In previous seasons at 1 item spike you could basically nullify their seeker's and that was balanced, defense was still more efficient than offense, but up to a certain point, not this much. The value of armor against lethality is disgusting.

And this is why Zed is a bad early game champion and will remain so until lethality is changed.

Late game Zed is actually good once you manage to get your lethality and lord dominik's, but early game dirk-1-2 items he's actually terrible compared to previous seasons. And that's an UNDENIABLE FACT.

Agreed

FirewaterDM11 votes

Few things you're ignoring though.

  1. Rushing this item leads to mages being heavily behind on mana, ofc matters to some more than others but surviving an extra Q/auto doesn't help much if you didn't have the mana to fight back, obviously conservation is needed but seems counterproductive to your needs.

  2. assuming perfect CS where the Zed lets you farm for free/isn't roaming to kill top/bottom lane you need 2-3 waves to max out Seekers (and there's plenty of other factors that makes it slower than ythis.

  3. unlike Hexdrinker, Seekers falls off almost immediately once Zed/other AD laner gets Duskblade + another Dirk even with the passive, Hexxdrinker is good till an actual 2nd m.pen item is bought or even longer

4a. Duskblade/Ghostblade is cheaper than Zhonya's/Ludens or Zhonya's/Archangels 4b. still ends in more damage because IF boots are assumed Mercs do more good vs. AP than seekers will vs ADs unless fully stacked. 4c. as a whole AD assassin itemization is far superior to AP itemization

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

Yeah, but mage players don't want to buy armor early game because they can't manage their mana like good players so Zed is overpowered instead.

Rayet9 votes

Good thing Zed players are excellent at managing mana... oh wait.

Akali is SO HOT7 votes

Contrary to popular belief, you actually do have to manage your energy on energy champions, Zed probably being one of the ones that has a harder time. If you spam your abilities off cooldown endlessly, then you'll run out of energy really quickly and you won't be able to do anything if someone decides to all in you. Especially later on in the game, if you faceroll your keyboard and use all of your abilities without thinking about your energy pool you'll run out of energy and be completely useless to your team.

Energy champions weren't given energy just for the shits and giggles and same goes for manaless champions and mages. Mages get to spam their abilities with the tradeoff of eventually running out and energy champions get the advantage of not having to worry about running oom, but with the trade off of not being able to spam their abilities like mages.

Your response doesn't really even have anything to do with what I said either so there's that as well.

Lets have shrex1 votes

Not like armor is countered by lethality... Enjoy rushing item 3143 as Ahri amirite ?

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

You get 18 lethality at level 18 with Duskblade for 2900 gold. You get 45 armor with a fully stacked Seeker's for 1100 gold. You don't need to rush a full armor item. All you need is Seekers and sometimes Ninja Tabi if you are having a rough time. Go ahead and keep building full offense though and keep dying not my problem.

FirewaterDM2 votes

that extra 45 armor does very little when people are at 3-4 items, tho early it helps to some point. Also you're missing the point of most assassins stacking Lethality + the damage/lethality option in runes.

As for Tabi's sure there's the 4 AD + a support/5 AD games where you need to do it but then you do honestly zero damage in trades/fights assuming the AD champ went either Mercs or Hexdrinker.

The big difference is efficiency because Armor items, ESPECIALLY for AP mages are pretty shitty/ineffective but yet mandatory whereas a Hexdrinker literally solves all of an assassin's needs + sets them back less due to the shield + MR giving more protection than the armor from seekers.

But even from a not-mage perspective, in a lotta cases 1 MR item can check most AP unless the one AP threat is super fed OR the other team is 4 AP. Meanwhile you can't itemize against AD because unless fed even tanks with Tabis/Randuins/Thornmail/Frozen Heart/Deadmans or Sunfire just melt.

Rìveń2 votes

Hey, did you know that you also had more armour back then, you know, the old runes that actually gave mages and other midlaners armour?

Yea, maybe you did, maybe you didn't, but it's easier to ignore it because it makes your statement about armour pen being easier to achieve in the earlier seasons seem like a better argument than it really is.

Sire Hippington34 votes

Listing changes without context, a boards classic.

  1. He performed poorly through S7 and most of S8, so buffs were legit.
  2. the 7.22 base stats buff happened to every champ because of runes reforged, it wasn't a specific buff for zed
  3. the 8.3 was just riot normaliseing regen to round numbers, also applying to all champs
  4. 8.6 was not a nerf with a compensation buff, it was a buff to compensate the heavy duskblade nerfs that all DB users got, Zed actually was one of the few that also got compensation nerfs to prevent over buffing. However, his performance was bad after that and showed that the compensation nerf was not needed. His performance after 8.7 was no better than befor 8.6...

So all we have is the small 7.17 buff that was legit as he had a rough time like most assasins at that time, the rest were systematic changes to all champs and the compensation for duskblade nerfs, which was pretty powerneutral in the end. It's sad how such a missinformed/missinforming threat gets so much upvotes.

charge attack7 votes

Also conveniently left out the absolute slew of nerfs Zed got in the patches earlier. Iirc when Zed was actually good he got nerfed meaningfully multiple times. Such as his W+Q animation cancel killed, huge CD increase to W etc, as well as losing bonus AD on his W.

Until the Assassin rework, where Zed was left to be pretty weak, even though Assassins were strong (lb, Talon, kat, Rengar, Kha) all pick/van and Zed wasn’t even good.

D357R0Y3R7 votes

love circlejerk police people like you

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

goodiesohhi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ylcwzFap,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-01T11:57:26.286+0000)

Listing changes without context, a boards classic.

  1. He performed poorly through S7 and most of S8, so buffs were legit.
  2. the 7.22 base stats buff happened to every champ because of runes reforged, it wasn't a specific buff for zed
  3. the 8.3 was just riot normaliseing regen to round numbers, also applying to all champs
  4. 8.6 was not a nerf with a compensation buff, it was a buff to compensate the heavy duskblade nerfs that all DB users got, Zed actually was one of the few that also got compensation nerfs to prevent over buffing. However, his performance was bad after that and showed that the compensation nerf was not needed. His performance after 8.7 was no better than befor 8.6...

So all we have is the small 7.17 buff that was legit as he had a rough time like most assasins at that time, the rest were systematic changes to all champs and the compensation for duskblade nerfs, which was pretty powerneutral in the end. It's sad how such a missinformed/missinforming threat gets so much upvotes.

^ all that needs to be said.

Daddy Ants16 votes

7.22 changes were adjustments for Runes reforged.

Every champion had those kind of changes.

Zed has a 60-63% ban rate in Bronze Silver and Gold.

A 50% ban rate in Platinum and a 35% ban rate in Diamond.

Cloud27371 votes

{quoted}

7.22 changes were adjustments for Runes reforged.

Every champion had those kind of changes.

Zed has a 60-63% ban rate in Bronze Silver and Gold.

A 50% ban rate in Platinum and a 35% ban rate in Diamond.

So pretty much everyone except the best players in the world ban him constantly. Seems like a pretty unhealthy champ to me.

Daddy Ants35 votes

{quoted}

So pretty much everyone except the best players in the world ban him constantly. Seems like a pretty unhealthy champ to me.

Yeah I agree.

Since QSS stopped removing his ult his ban rates gone through the roof and never dropped.

iDarkWind11 votes

To me it seems like you guys need to actually get good at the game.

Chembaron Yamada39 votes

50% banrate in plat and 35% banrate in diamond is still pretty high. So it seems it's not just about "getting good".

iDarkWind6 votes

Now take a look at his Win Rate. He has the same as most mages do in the mid lane.

People still ban him because his kit is annoying to deal with, and not by being overpowered.

I won't discuss anymore about this bullshlt. I've been giving too much attention to this stupid circlejerk on boards.

AtLeastTryAndWin20 votes

Isn't win rate inflated by playrate?

What is Zed's again?

Sp33d Zer09 votes

Winrate is deflated by playrate

koshkyra2 votes

^

iDarkWind4 votes

[deleted]

Dr Dog8 votes

your completely forgetting the higher the play rate, the lower his winrate should be but if you have the same win rate as the best meta mid laners AND triple their play rate thats broken, very very broken, if you can actually argue that after constant buffs giant play and ban rates across all tiers hes balanced your just willfully ignorant

Pigeon Reformed2 votes

{quoted}

50% banrate in plat and 35% banrate in diamond is still pretty high. So it seems it's not just about "getting good".

you're saying this as if plat/low diamond would be good

Sp33d Zer011 votes

Top 5% to top 1% of players on any given server

Somehow arbitrarily not good because pro play exists.

Provengreil6 votes

You also gotta remember that silvers and bronzies don't peel or select for fast-resolving hard CC, and even in gold it's usually something they only do if the champ they already wanted can do it. As a result, bronze to gold ADCs and mages(specific champs notwithstanding, such as Xayah) have legit no defense against zed, rengar, yi, and so on. So we ban.

DW Diana6 votes

{quoted}

7.22 changes were adjustments for Runes reforged.

Every champion had those kind of changes.

Zed has a 60-63% ban rate in Bronze Silver and Gold.

A 50% ban rate in Platinum and a 35% ban rate in Diamond.

Not going to downvote you for this, but he lost very little with runes reforged, while other lost a huge amount and recieved nothing.

NightmareAmazoX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ylcwzFap,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-07-01T14:42:16.864+0000)

Not going to downvote you for this, but he lost very little with runes reforged, while other lost a huge amount and recieved nothing.

Could you list who?

DW Diana9 votes

{quoted}

Could you list who?

Well just for starters, anyone AP that used DFT other then Brand. He got his 2% max hp damage passive DOUBLED because of it's removal. No one else did. "Like Who?" you say? Malzahar who has been cycling through keystones ever since (currently using electrocute)? Or Rumble who's current top keystone is designed for AD champions?

Meanwhile Zed got to keep his Thunderlords (Electrocute works the same way for him), kept his lethality (sudden impact), gained out of combat movement speed/spell vamp, all the while getting bonus AD anyway (more then his old red runes would give) passively through the runes reforged, AND gets to pick up a secondary tree.

Yeah poor Zed...give him more buffs please...item 3070

LordOfDarkness611 votes

This lethality is situational and it' 3x less that he had in s7.

DW Diana9 votes

{quoted}

This lethality is situational and it' 3x less that he had in s7.

"Lethality is situational"...on an ASSASSIN? You realise how completely stupid that is?

Also YES the total amount is less, because they BUFFED LETHALITY.

Lethality is, and was DESIGNED to be the core of ad assassin builds. The fact Zed doesn't really NEED it anymore is like having a mage go "well AP is situational" or a tank saying "hp is SITUATIONAL" or a god damn jungler saying "Smite is situational"

Zed doesn't need buffs, and as the OP shows, hes had far more then he has needed. The fact you are happy to argue that he doesn't need to build the stat that is CORE to his "class" of champion show how far it has gone, and how little you care about balancing as long as you can 1 shot anything.

LordOfDarkness611 votes

What I said is that if he stands in the lane and throws Q its same as with 0 lethality and this applies to all his harass combos...His rune's lethality only applies to all in's. I never said Zed doesn't need lethality.

DW Diana5 votes

{quoted}

What I said is that if he stands in the lane and throws Q its same as with 0 lethality and this applies to all his harass combos...His rune's lethality only applies to all in's.

At level 1 yes, by level 2 he has W and can gain the benefit from Sudden Impact. Still not feeling much pity

I never said Zed doesn't need lethality.

LordOfDarkness61 (EUNE) - 21 minutes ago

This lethality is situational

Situational: "relating to or dependent on a set of circumstances" So unless you are now saying the "situation" is you are playing Zed...

LordOfDarkness611 votes

Situational: "relating to or dependent on a set of circumstances". Circumstance is him dashing to W shadow. Dashing to W shadow at lvl 3 which you are about to use to poke is idiotic and will get you outtraded so bad. So he has 0 lethality most of the time until he starts building it.

DW Diana4 votes

{quoted}

Situational: "relating to or dependent on a set of circumstances". Circumstance is him dashing to W shadow. Dashing to W shadow at lvl 3 which you are about to use to poke is idiotic and will get you outtraded so bad. So he has 0 lethality most of the time until he starts building it.

Which would only apply to sudden impact, NOT lethality? Which one did you say?

"until he starts building it"...he starts item 1036 then gets item 3134... So what you mean is "when he gets to 750 gold"?

Finally using W level 3 is fine on Zed as his W W Q AA E ignite electrocute does far more damage that way. Watch level 3 all in's where the Zed has managed to poke his laner down to 70-80% hp and you'll realise this isn't just a viable combo for him, its a STANDARD one for him. The fact you didn't know this as a Zed main...It's kinda like a Talon main not knowing how to level 2 cheese someone...

LordOfDarkness612 votes

The fact i'm Zed "main" (that is just what my profile says) should be more than enough to tell you i have better knowledge of him than you and the combo you said would do 70% (if he even hits both Q which is next amazingly hard with your combo lul) on anyone while enemy would do 60% and continue kiting zed as on lvl 3 they should have some abilities that let them kit thus killing him... So no you cant all in full hp guy with at lvl 3... In lots of cases, he doesn't buy dirt but hexdrinker.

DW Diana4 votes

{quoted}

The fact i'm Zed "main" (that is just what my profile says) should be more than enough to tell you i have better knowledge of him than you

No not really. I'm not gunna list your stats with him, or any other champion you have "knowledge" of either, I'm just gunna say you are wrong.

and the combo you said would do 70% (if he even hits both Q which is next amazingly hard with your combo lul) on anyone while enemy would do 60% and continue kiting zed as on lvl 3 they should have some abilities that let them kit thus killing him...

It's actually really simple if you know how. It's kinda like Zed's version of the Talon first blood cheese, just a level later. Kiting doesn't really happen that early for most champions, and by the time they realise they're gunna die it's too late.

So no you cant all in full hp guy with at lvl 3...

Not sure I ever said 100-0 at level 3... nope just checked, i didn't. See, unlike your posts, mine are nice and accurate. I say what I mean to say without needing to change it later when I've been proven wrong, or ignore my mistakes instead of admitting to them. If I don't know something, even about my most played champion, I say I don't know it, not make rash statements that I can't back up. That way i gain ACTUAL knowledge rather feeding my own self-inflated ego. Try it, it works wonders... both the combo and the knowledge over ego thing...

In lots of cases, he doesn't buy dirt but hexdrinker.

Into AP matchups yes, but those aren't all the time and he doesn't tend to buy it if he ISN'T in an AP matchup. THAT'S situational :P

LordOfDarkness611 votes

It is simple if you are playing against an opponent that doesn't know any of Zed's ability and allows himself to get hit by everything. I never changed anything in my comment, I'm trying to explain to you that he doesn't have 10 lethality at lvl 1-6 (or whenever he starts buying it) he just has it under certain circumstances (him dashing.And even than it lasts for 5 secs). You can't compare his "cheese" with Talon's as Talon will hit all his abilities lvl 2 90% of the time (if he is all ining) and for someone to be so sure that he will hit his shurikens that he actually will first dash to enemy and than cast them well I have seen that only in some crazy Zed montages but I have also seen Kata 1v5 whole team so that is not very likely. You saying your posts are nicer than mine or whatever but you forgot that this discussion is about Zed's nerfs and buffs and not about my profile and stats with him. And while I'm speaking that these runes reduced Zed's power so it had to be compensated you are speaking about his combos in perfect circumstances. By that logic, if Shaco is lucky enough and puts his boxes good enough he can 1v5 enemy team at lvl 1. Also to help you a bit more about the game: Kiting is damaging enemy from a distance so he can't damage you. So if enemy has any kind of mobility (so he can dash blink roll away after Zed dashed to W) or slow/cc (to cc or slow him till he gets some distance) he can kill Zed even in those perfect circumstances if he has any idea of kiting.

DW Diana4 votes

{quoted}

Ok gunna make this my final response because I'm having several conversations at the moment and this one is pretty much done i feel.

It is simple if you are playing against an opponent that doesn't know any of Zed's ability and allows himself to get hit by everything.

No, it's simple if you can play the champion. Zed's abilities are not only well known, but also not that hard to hit (1 skill shot).

I never changed anything in my comment, I'm trying to explain to you that he doesn't have 10 lethality at lvl 1-6 (or whenever he starts buying it) he just has it under certain circumstances (him dashing.And even than it lasts for 5 secs).

You started by saying that lethality on Zed was situational. Yes you then changed that arguement to the above over several posts gaining more detail as you went to finally reach a statement that is not only obvious "He hasn't got any lethality unless he builds it or uses the ability in his kit that will give it him through sudden impact" but also VERY different from the statement "Lethality is situational."

You can't compare his "cheese" with Talon's as Talon will hit all his abilities lvl 2 90% of the time (if he is all ining) and for someone to be so sure that he will hit his shurikens that he actually will first dash to enemy and than cast them well I have seen that only in some crazy Zed montages but I have also seen Kata 1v5 whole team so that is not very likely.

Of course you can compare the two... It's about timing and ability to land skill shots. Talon W and Q have fuck all range so of course you have to work around that. Zed has to rely on him being able to hit his Q's and position his W correctly. After that it's easy.

You saying your posts are nicer than mine or whatever but you forgot that this discussion is about Zed's nerfs and buffs and not about my profile and stats with him.

I commented my posts are more ACCURATE then yours because, as mentioned before, you make a statement that is clearly incorrect, then when called out on it change and clarify your point to something else entirely. The OP is about Zed's buffs other the last year, and it was you that brought up that I should listen to you because as a Zed main you know best.

And while I'm speaking that these runes reduced Zed's power so it had to be compensated you are speaking about his combos in perfect circumstances.

They are the SAME combo's that work the SAME way with runes that barely affected him in any way! So far the best you've come up with is "I can only gain sudden impact when I use my W." No shit Sherlock! That doesn't mean your champion has suddenly become weaker. He gained LOADS from the runes reforged and did not REQUIRE any compensation buffs

By that logic, if Shaco is lucky enough and puts his boxes good enough he can 1v5 enemy team at lvl 1.

Yes by your logic I suppose that's right, but your logic is a fluid thing

Also to help you a bit more about the game: Kiting is damaging enemy from a distance so he can't damage you. So if enemy has any kind of mobility (so he can dash blink roll away after Zed dashed to W) or slow/cc (to cc or slow him till he gets some distance) he can kill Zed even in those perfect circumstances if he has any idea of kiting.

Cool, obviously I knew this, but then you're being facetious now and therefore not to be taken seriously. Kiting is a thing for any melee (even some ranged) to learn to deal with in any game. By all means don't try anything differently, it's worked out really well for you so far.

Anywho, feel free to have the "last word", I won't be reading it.

Darkone70014 votes

I can't stand people like you "I play this champ a lot so my word is law".

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

In the old system Zed had natural armor pen at ALL times from the rune that was right above TLD.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Rumble only uses Comet really.....which is an adaptive keystone aimed at poke.

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ylcwzFap,comment-id=00010001000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-02T00:20:05.266+0000)

Rumble only uses Comet really.....which is an adaptive keystone aimed at poke.

He used Conqueror for a while.

AmazoX10 votes

#The first reason

  • The Assassin Rework hurt him badly, they moved his W Bonus AD into his ultimate as a mechanic to obtain it through killing a champion with enough AD and you only obtain it back by the time it's late game.

#The second reason

  • The second reason is armor penetration was changed to lethality, you had flat armor penetration but it was changed to lethality because of ADCS abusing armor penetration which were: Jhin , MissFortune , Varus , Twitch , Draven , Lucian , Quinn.

#The third reason

  • The reason everyone seems to forget is right after the Assassin Rework adding delays and destroying champions like Rengar & Leblanc (which thankfully were reworked again) , to appeal players to "Auto Fill", they introduced strong support items like item 3109 & item 3107 which became very mandatory. Those times turned to Twitch coming out of stealth to melt an entire team.

#The fourth reason

  • The tanks Rework which updated the items from lesser HP to higher Armour.
The Yetii Rider3 votes

Fourth reason is irrelevant, Riot wants tanks to live through assassins otherwise assassins have no counter

But you're absolutely right, Ardent Censer is the main reason for all of this. Also Electrocute is worse than Thunderlords Decree.

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