With the current philosophy of the balancing team, the damage creep will just get worse

Altiverse··120 votes·4,103 views

For estimately the past year, If something is too strong, the balance team seems to have this sort of philosophy: Either "nerf it, but don't forget to compensate in other areas!", or "Let's look for the concealed causes instead of directly changing it!". Here's what I mean:

  • Duskblade is too strong? Nerf it, but don't forget to compensate every single Duskblade user!
  • Statikk is finally getting nerfed? Don't forget to compensate by buffing another crit item!
  • Kai'Sa was released in an acceptable state and isn't on par with every other meta BPS adc? Buff!

Or, alternatively:

  • Bot lane is overloaded because they do their counters' job better than their counters themselves? No we won't nerf bot lane, we will buff assassins instead.
  • Tanks are allowed to either win lane against fighters or play passively and completely ignore them, while also being much more useful later into the game? No we won't simply nerf tanks' trading potential. We'll buff fighters instead.

I ask this of the balance team:
##Stop trying to eliminate balance issues by creating more balance issues.

If something needs to be nerfed, nerf it. Period. And currently, I feel like basically every single meta champion needs a nerf. While, I must admit, the current meta roster is quite diverse compared to previous metas (which is, in itself, a good thing). Still, playing any non-meta champion currently feels like masochism, and again the answer is not to buff the non-meta champions but to nerf the meta ones.

[Edit: I explained my thoughts more clearly in a comment below so I decided to edit the following into the main post. This is just additional clarification, mostly targeted at comments that disagree regarding specific balance changes like "Duskblade" or "Bot lane", which is not at all my point. So you don't have to read any further if you don't feel like it]

I'll try to explain my point more clearly. Firstly, let's establish the fact that damage creep exists. If you take a look at older LoL videos, champions across the board dealt about 60% less damage to other champions, and I am not exaggerating by any stretch of the imagination. The damage that is thrown around by everything today is absolutely absurd. If you (//this is a general you) think otherwise, it's either because you've gotten used to it in the recent balance state of the game or because you're too new to know how the game felt in earlier seasons.

Whether damage creep is a good thing or not is a topic for a whole 'nother day, but I think it's safe to assume that the vast, vast majority of players think that the concept of damage creep is bad game balance, regardless of whether it currently exists within the game or not.

Now, my point is an observation on how the balance team tends to compensate nerfs or attempt to fix issues from "unexpected" angles, and how it strengthens the damage creep in the long run. Simply put, as I highlighted in my OP, "Stop trying to eliminate balance issues by creating more balance issues". If the balance team came to the conclusion that something needs to be nerfed, simply nerfing it is the best course of action, or at the very least better than the current approach. By buffing other areas of something that needed a nerf (and by that I mean, for example, Duskblade isn't a walking entity. Duskblade was strong on its users, thus it was nerfed), you're creating more problems. By attempting to fix issues from unexpected angles or "concealed" causes, you're creating more problems. As long as something that needs a nerf won't simply be nerfed, it's just an endless cycle, all the while the overall damage across the board won't be reduced.

Now, apply this to whatever you may. For Duskblade, I agree that Duskblade users will be left weak without their respective compensations. That's because, as Duskblade users as others, currently almost everything is overloaded. The time that they're left "weak" is the price we pay as a step towards better balance, as we step by step remove the damage creep across the board. But if the cycle won't be broken, it will just grow bigger. We have to start somewhere, and there's a lot to start from. [And that's great; it just means there are more things that can be tied down together, which will minimize the window of specific items/champions being too weak.]

Thanks for reading!

98 Comments

Slythion34 votes

The Duskblade compensation buffs are undoubtedly justified

as for everything else, idk

LOSINGISMYPRIDE40 votes

you mean the 35 % extra damage on isolated target for kha zix and the 10 % ad ratio on him ? oh yeah he lost 15 base damage for dealing 100 % extra damage on a isolated target so 300 base damage with a 260 % bonus ad on a 2 sec cooldown . and duskblade lost some damage but got compensated in its utility . Unique Passive - Blackout now notes "Melee attacks instantly kill these devices."

ZJD12314 votes

{quoted}

you mean the 35 % extra damage on isolated target for kha zix and the 10 % ad ratio on him ? oh yeah he lost 15 base damage for dealing 100 % extra damage on a isolated target so 300 base damage with a 260 % bonus ad on a 2 sec cooldown . and duskblade lost some damage but got compensated in its utility . Unique Passive - Blackout now notes "Melee attacks instantly kill these devices."

out of all the dusk compensations , the khazix one was certainly questionable. Especially considering he was the only user that was considered op and will probably now be even more op.

Auz the Ripper3 votes

Well part of it was also because they nerfed his early jungle clear a fair amount and some of his early damage. Although It’d probably be a lot better if they didn’t front load all of that compensation into the scaling of his Q

Slythion7 votes

Kha's is an outlier compensation buff and to let that singular example act as a reason to say that compensation buffs aren't justified at all would be wrong.

We both agree that his are overdone, but I won't let that somehow segway into saying nobody needs compensation buffs at all.

Bern6 votes

They nerfed his jungle clear by removing w's bonus damage to monsters. He'll have a much worse time clearing AoE camps.

Daunt12 votes

Boohoo, does that make up for buffing an arguably already incredibly strong champion?

Nuparu2 votes

Considering he's going to have even more problems killing anything unisolated (combine the passive nerfs from last patch (or 2 ago, idk) and duskblade nerfs)...

AmazoX7 votes

{quoted}

you mean the 35 % extra damage on isolated target for kha zix and the 10 % ad ratio on him ? oh yeah he lost 15 base damage for dealing 100 % extra damage on a isolated target so 300 base damage with a 260 % bonus ad on a 2 sec cooldown . and duskblade lost some damage but got compensated in its utility . Unique Passive - Blackout now notes "Melee attacks instantly kill these devices."

The compensations were justified, how could you possibly complain when ADCS hit their late game power spikes at 15 minutes into the game?

The adjustments to Duskblade and it's users was because of how it forced all the AD Assassins into forcing their play style around ONE only as it was the most effective which grew VERY boring for the AD Assassins players and the community spoke about how an item shouldn't be what makes a champion impactful but their unique kits.

Riot Games has done this mistake in the past.

item 3504 - THE ARDENT CENSOR Meta that lasted for 5 months in Season 7 upto Preseason 8. This item completely changed how supports worked, they WERE so IMPACTFUL with the press of a button, they hyper buffed their ADCS into GOD state, the game was revolved around which support would get the item first.

#A whole class of champions wrapped around getting one item that functioned as nearly impactful as an ability in a kit

Duskblade WAS not as bad as Ardent Censor, Ardent Censor Meta COMPLETELY DOMINATED THE RIFT on every level of PLAY while Duskblade only forced AD Assassins to build Duskblade and adjust their play styles around it because it was the most effective way of playing them. The players grew tired of it, the Assassins & their opponents, hence the adjustments and the compensations to its users so players can go back to their play style of their favourite AD Assassin WITH RESPECT TO THEIR KIT.

Daddy Tie Me Up4 votes

When they removed DFG, they did jack shit to compensate for the damage loss for champions like ahri(they even ruined her while acting like it was rework), katarina, leblanc. But oh well Zed isnt creeping on that 50% win rate even though he is usually picked into full ad team, better compensate zed.

Altiverse12 votes

Even ignoring some compensations that went overboard like Kha'Zix (as LosingIsMyPride replied); I agree that objectively Duskblade users will be left relatively weak without these buffs.

My point though, is that these compensations only get us deeper into the damage creep. Read my comment below @AirKingNeo (though it's regarding different balance issues, it's all the same).

Slythion3 votes

Duskblade users are already sitting on the weaker side. Almost every duskblade user sits at a 50% wr or lower, with few exceptions. I don't think it's too much to assume that nerfing their main item would decrease their performance.

If anything, this isn't really "damage creep" but more "damage distribution". Damage creep would be to buff Lucian/Jinx/Caitlyn/Jhin rather than nerfing Tristana/Varus/Xayah etc :^)

Altiverse13 votes

Well, I'll try to explain my point more clearly then. Firstly, let's establish the fact that damage creep exists. If you take a look at older LoL videos, champions across the board deal about 60% less damage to other champions, and I am not exaggerating by any stretch of the imagination. The damage that is thrown around by everything today is absolutely absurd. If you (//this is a general you) think otherwise, it's either because you've gotten used to it in the recent balance state of the game or because you're too new to know how the game felt in earlier seasons.

Whether damage creep is a good thing or not is a topic for a whole 'nother day, but I think it's safe to assume that the vast, vast majority of players think that the concept of damage creep is bad game balance, whether it currently exists within the game or not.

Now, my point is an observation on how the balance team tends to compensate nerfs or attempt to fix issues from "unexpected" angles, and how it strengthens the damage creep in the long run. Simply put, as I highlighted in my OP, is "Stop trying to eliminate balance issues by creating more balance issues". If the balance team came to the conclusion that something needs to be nerfed, simply nerfing it is the best course of action, or at the very least better than the current approach. By buffing other areas of something that needed a nerf (and by that I mean, in this example, Duskblade isn't a walking champion. Duskblade was strong on its users, thus it was nerfed), you're creating more problems. By attempting to fix issues from unexpected angles or "concealed" causes, you're creating more problems. As long as something that needs a nerf won't simply be nerfed, it's just an endless cycle, all the while the overall damage across the board won't be reduced.

Now, apply this to whatever you may. For Duskblade, as I already said, I agree that objectively Duskblade users will be left weak without their respective compensations. That's because, as Duskblade users as others, currently almost everything is overloaded. The time that they're left "weak" is the price we pay as a step towards better balance, as we step by step remove the damage creep across the board. But if the cycle won't be broken, it will just grow bigger. We have to start somewhere, and there's a lot to start from. [And that's great; it just means there are more things that can be tied down together, which will minimize the window of specific items/champions being too weak.]

I guess I'll edit this into the OP since it more clearly explains my thoughts.

AmazoX4 votes

{quoted}

Even ignoring some compensations that went overboard like Kha'Zix (as LosingIsMyPride replied); I agree that objectively Duskblade users will be left relatively weak without these buffs.

My point though, is that these compensations only get us deeper into the damage creep. Read my comment below @AirKingNeo (though it's regarding different balance issues, it's all the same).

You wanna handle damage creep? Start with ADCS BPS AT 20 minutes into the game.

Serika Zero4 votes

rip talon and the compensations he got

meanwhile... zed.... omg.... its beyond obvious the balance team has favorites

or they are being told who to buff a bit harder than others

FicBenji7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APwWZ1T7,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2018-03-22T12:23:11.766+0000)

rip talon and the compensations he got

meanwhile... zed.... omg.... its beyond obvious the balance team has favorites

or they are being told who to buff a bit harder than others

Zed can also proc electrocute off of 1 ability and then landing 2 q's. It is absurd that they buffed that. Totally seems fitting when people accuse Riot of not even testing the changes that they make in the game. Buffing Zed's q is just preposterous

AmazoX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APwWZ1T7,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2018-03-22T12:23:11.766+0000)

rip talon and the compensations he got

meanwhile... zed.... omg.... its beyond obvious the balance team has favorites

or they are being told who to buff a bit harder than others

Did you even do the Mathematics to Zed's adjustments?

They MADE HIM harder to play and the changes are an overall nerf until he hits level 16, at that point majority of the matches are decided by that point!

Serika Zero3 votes

no? assuming you play him well and land most of your shurikens on the target without them constantly going thou minnions you will see an increase in damage, and that's not even talking about that ult buff.

they did made him HARDER TO PLAY for people that were BAD at zed and constantly throw Qs though minions.

AmazoX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=APwWZ1T7,comment-id=0001000200010000,timestamp=2018-03-22T15:21:58.784+0000)

no? assuming you play him well and land most of your shurikens on the target without them constantly going thou minnions you will see an increase in damage, and that's not even talking about that ult buff.

they did made him HARDER TO PLAY for people that were BAD at zed and constantly throw Qs though minions.

Its near impossible to play Zed well in lane without his shurikens going through minions unless the opponent is basically lowkey trying to int by not taking advantage of Zed's shurikens doing even LESS damage when going through a target.

Serika Zero5 votes

umm, no??? i used to be in plat and was getting hit by shurikens that didn't pass though minions every now and then. I pretty sure zeds in all elos can hit direct Qs because of that.

hitting your skill shot is as much on you as its on the enemy dodging it. This is like saying "You will never get hit by a morgana Q unless you are trying to int" as morgana Q gets blocked by minions, but guess what, a lot of people get hit by that.

Also, you got your shadow that mimics your spell..... honestly, if Zed's shuriken would get stuck in a target and not pass though (try throwing shurkens, you'll see you won't hit multiple targets with a single one) it would be more balanced.

Handin Out Naps2 votes

What the hell am I even reading LOL? You got hit by naked q's because you played bad, if you get hit by a morg q in lane, you played bad, or she already cleared all your minions. There really just aren't any ways to get hit by naked q's unless you are deliberately putting yourself in a place where you can get hit by it. That is under your control Zed does not control where you stand, Zed hitting his q's through minions on the other hand is partially under his own control. And no if zed's shurikens didn't go through targets he would be 100% unplayable not balanced.

Serika Zero1 votes

right, everyone is bad and plays bad, only you are mr challanger that does everything good you are even better than lcs players that got hit by "naked" zed qs, morgana's qs, lux's qs, blitz q, thresh q, and so on in lane....

honestly bro, chill out again, hitting a skill shot is on both players. that's why you can still hit skill shots even in higher tier of play

Handin Out Naps2 votes

Pls show me people getting hit by those types of skillshots in lcs lol. Getting hit by stuff like that is caused by you making mistakes, they are always avoidable by playing well. Dodging all skillshots is impossible, but standing behind minions and avoiding skillshots like that is always possible.

Keshaun8 votes

Completely agree with what you're getting at. I feel the balance team knows they're creating more problems when they're updating the game so they can keep their jobs and come back to it further down the road. If that's not the case, the whole balance team needs to be removed and critiqued because you cannot tell me one person on the team hasn't thought of just nerfing whats meta right now rather than buffing what's not S tier.

PaffWasTaken6 votes

"A problematic champions gets finally nefed? Good! But since we cant stand seeing them finally balanced and on par with other champions, we'll buff them again!!! Shyvana Twitch Zoe KogMaw "

AirKingNeo5 votes

Kai'Sa was released in an acceptable state and isn't on par with every other meta BPS adc? Buff!

Uhh, Kai'Sa was weak. Also, what's BPS because that term doesn't exist.

Statikk is finally getting nerfed? Don't forget to compensate by buffing another crit item!

RFC is garbage without Shiv. Buffing it is perfectly fine.

Altiverse22 votes

BPS - Burst Per Second (Yeah the short term doesn't exist but I figured it's easy enough as it's similar to DPS).

Uhh, Kai'Sa was weak. Also, what's BPS because that term doesn't exist. RFC is garbage without Shiv. Buffing it is perfectly fine.

You seem to have missed my point. I agree that within the current game balance Kai'Sa was weak and it's justifiable to buff RFC.

The point is that this will simply go on and on, snowballing more into the damage creep. Looking at the bigger picture, most ADCs need nerfs, which applies both to nerfing Statikk and Kai'Sa being at an objectively acceptable balance state (objectively as in, not when comparing her to currently-broken ADCs). That's why, as long as a change in philosophy standpoint isn't made, and every nerf which is by itself justified (as the balance team themselves have admitted by attempting to nerf said X), will be offset by a compensation, we will just roll deeper into the damage creep. Instead, we can leave some of the "justifiable nerfs" actually nerfed for some time, the time in which it will take to bring other strong aspects (ADCs, various items) of the game into a balanced state.

Floupi1 votes

[deleted]

Altiverse5 votes

The buff on auto attack range makes a huge difference. Also, they buffed her E which applies mostly to AD Kai'Sa.

(Well, this is slightly off-topic, this isn't a Kai'Sa discussion)

Hethalean1 votes

If you don't mind my asking, what is the difference between burst per second and damage per second in reality? It seems like a weird term because if you're bursting then you're typically not doing it every second. If you're constantly doing damage, I've always heard it as damage per second.

Altiverse3 votes

Presumption: Some classes deal Burst damage, and others deal Sustained damage. Sustained damage isn't necessarily linear (as ADCs still have abilities) and Burst damage isn't necessarily in set intervals either. The important point though is that DPS classes have minimal fluctuation in their damage over time, while Burst classes have a huge one. Thus, from a balance perspective, it's only natural that DPS classes should deal less damage than Burst classes during the short "Burst" window of time.

The issue that "Burst per Second" refers to: Some DPS classes (aka, ADCs in this case) match the "Burst" of Burst classes/champions, while still maintaining minimal fluctuation in their damage over time. In other words, they deal continuous damage that equals the one that the Burst classes can only deal within a short window.

I guess that originally the term was just a joke (for exactly the logical reasons you state), but it refers to real balance issues.

Hethalean2 votes

Ah, ok, that makes sense. I was merely curious at the difference.

PB4UAME1 votes

Basically when someone says ADCs are doing BPS, interpret that as them complaining about the fact that unmissible, resourceless ranged right clicks that can happen up to 2.5times a second with no cooldown or gating in any way, shape, nor form, can, per instance of damage, keep up with a burst mages burst combo in terms of DPS, but again, as they have no cooldown or gating at all, they can keep this up indefinitely, bursting up to 2.5 times a second with no resource investment, way to miss, or way to outplay or mitigate the incoming damage.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

Basically when someone says ADCs are doing BPS, interpret that as them complaining about the fact that unmissible, resourceless ranged right clicks that can happen up to 2.5times a second with no cooldown or gating in any way, shape, nor form, can, per instance of damage, keep up with a burst mages burst combo in terms of DPS, but again, as they have no cooldown or gating at all, they can keep this up indefinitely, bursting up to 2.5 times a second with no resource investment, way to miss, or way to outplay or mitigate the incoming damage.

Ok so I'm gonna do that thing where I think damage creep is a problem but I'm going to disagree with this statement.

ADCs have no or weak utility. Almost every mage has some kind of utility. Their damage is supposed to be consistent. The class is designed around sustained dps. The offset to them being resourceless (Not even entirely true) and not having cooldowns is that if you sneeze at an adc most of them will fall over dead.

The issue with damage creep is they are doing too much damage in too short a period of time to actually play out the purpose of the role. They can burst someone down like a mage which negates the weakness of the class.

The design concept, what you are commenting on, is NOT THE PROBLEM with adcs or the damage creep issue.

PB4UAME1 votes

The entire problem is that they have their cake and eat it too.

You talk about the utility mages have, then ignore ALL of the self peel, CC, scouting tools, and utility ADCs have.

How many have a reveal of some sort? Jhin Ashe KogMaw Quinn Caitlyn Corki Jinx MissFortune KaisaKalista

How many have ally buffs, enemy debuffs, or enchants? Ezreal Sivir KogMaw GravesKalista Kindred Xayah

What about mobility, and movement speed increases? Sivir Jhin Jinx Vayne Kalista Caitlyn Tristana Corki Ezreal Graves Kaisa MissFortune Quinn Xayah Kindred

Hard CC? Xayah Vayne Varus Tristana Quinn Kalista Jhin Corki Ashe

Huh, nope, no utility there AT ALL right?

Oh, and you forget that mages have conditions for their damage entirely. They have skillshots they can miss, they have to pay mana to use their abilities, they often have cast times and/or animations, they have combos they actually have to hit in a certain order, their damage can be body-blocked, and they have cooldowns. Literally none of that applies to ranged auto attacks which are literally a single input for indefinite damage until either you or your target is dead. It'll even move you if it has to to get in range.

Faliandra5 votes

and then there are people crying for nerfs to shields and heals, because god forbid,someone is actually trying to heal/shield through all that power creep.

Omg shields so OP, now they have to land one more hit to kill you. Crazy. Nerf plz. /s

Please explain to me, why everyone and their mum complains about power creep but at the same time ask for nerfs to Janna and Lulu as if their shields had no CD at all and literally prevented ANYONE from dying. They are doing their job, and yes, they can save people, but I dont think theyre as OP as many people here make them out to be when there's Rengars flying out of brushes and 100 to 0 you in 0.01 seconds with a shield on top of yourself.

Maybe there is something that I'm missing,so I'm genuinely asking.

Daedric Etwahl6 votes

As someone who mains Sona but plays none of ANY other enchanter, the upcoming heal and shield nerfs make me extremely nervous and bitter. I hope they don't just make some hamfisted nerfs across the board, because Sona really does not deserve to be nerfed any further

And that's not even mentioning guys like Tahm and ESPECIALLY Morde if some anti-shield item is introduced.

Mojihito6662 votes

Because its a binary game if you dont blow out opponent first they will do it in retaliation.

its boring

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Because its a binary game if you dont blow out opponent first they will do it in retaliation.

its boring

Then nerf the damage creep. This wouldnt be an issue if people didnt have to blow people up in 0.0001 seconds or die in futility trying.

5050BS3 votes

Yep god forbid that a team fight could last 10-15s before the first person dies.

LegitBusinessman2 votes

{quoted}

Yep god forbid that a team fight could last 10-15s before the first person dies.

Miss watching those. So tense. Made LCS so entertaining to watch.

no to toxic5 votes

Good thing CertainlY gives us champs who have so much power in their kits that they make 70% of all other champs obsoloete is stopping us from adding more damage into the game.

saltran4 votes

Which crit item is being buffed due to the Shyv nerfs? Honestly asking, I didn't noticed it.

Pokemonred2005 votes

item 3094, but most of its users buikt it with item 3087 for the faster charimg and the damage doesn't stack, so it's kind of an irrelevant change (esp since rfc can't crit or apply to 5 targets)

saltran2 votes

{quoted}

item 3094, but most of its users buikt it with item 3087 for the faster charimg and the damage doesn't stack, so it's kind of an irrelevant change (esp since rfc can't crit or apply to 5 targets)

Yeah, if that's the case it's just a buff to make it viable to build only RFC without trolling.

BestPudgeNA3 votes

{quoted}

Which crit item is being buffed due to the Shyv nerfs? Honestly asking, I didn't noticed it.

They buffed the damage on item 3094 passive

HekaPimp3 votes

I think runes are what need to be nerfed.

Dukues3 votes

Riot balance team has no idea what they are doing. They have always been bad and I used to stand up for them but I am done. This game has the worst balance out of any game I have ever played.

UnoGetGoldELO2 votes

Game balance is tailored around LCS and monetary gain not to actually create balance but to get more viewers moniez and publicity while the 99% of us have to sit through countless terribad games and obvious pickbans.

Leaf on Bush2 votes

Only Shaco got overcompensated with damage on his Q that he didn't even need. Obviously tailored around LCS, because we see Shaco so often there. lol Just shut up with your generic LCS hate.

More from Gameplay

More by Altiverse