Not only AP itemization is inferior to AD, but Sorcery runes too.

Altiverse··51 votes·2,940 views

So apparently, most Mages have a lower winrate when running Sorcery keystones. Listing: Azir, Karma, Lissandra, Vel'Koz, Ahri, Annie, Ryze, Vladimir, Kennen, Brand, Veigar, Heimerdinger, Zyra, Zoe, Karthus, Elise, Anivia, Malzahar, Viktor. Each of these champions have a different Keystone (usually Summoner Specialist or Electrocute) that simply outclasses any Sorcery keystone.

Now, this would be fine if Thunderlord wasn't specifically gutted and turned into "Electrocute" to make it less usable for mages (aka 3-unique-attacks, since mages have the clunkiest autoattacks and it's pretty hard to fit in autoattacks as a mage, especially later into the game), so in order to proc it as a mage you'd normally have to hit your full combo.

This would also be fine if we were taking a look on one specific champion; maybe they're very flash-reliant for their combos like Annie or Vlad so Summoner Specialist would be very effective on them, or maybe that's a mage like Ahri that has a relatively easy time proccing Electrocute thanks to her Charm.

But no, the vast majority of Mages use a non-Sorcery keystone more efficiently than a rune path that was specifically designed for Mages - or rather, spell-casters; but clearly Mages are the primary spell-casters in the game, and they have the least synergy with other rune paths from all roles, yet they somehow use other Keystones more efficiently.

##My only conclusion is that Sorcery Keystones are simply worse than others, rather than "other Keystones have a better synergy with X champion's kit".

######Obviously, staight buffing Sorcery keystones will also make other roles able to abuse them too, and I do have a few ideas in mind on how to make them more mage (or rather, spell-caster) -specific, but that's slightly off-topic and suggestions are usually overlooked anyway so nvm that.

Edit: I mean Keystones dammit, not the whole rune path. I actually think the Sorcery runes themselves are pretty good.

Edit 2: A lot of the arguments I see here claim that "Comet is so good on X champions, everyone is taking it" or "X champions abuse Aery and it's the best with them". I never said otherwise. My whole point is that mages are left behind with no Keystones that fit them properly, while other roles seem to be using whatever they want. Even if the Sorcery keystones were made more spellcaster-specific and consequently better for mages, other roles will still have other Keystones to fall on that fit them like a glove.

82 Comments

Z3Sleeper32 votes

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.

SORCERY IS THE BEST AND MOST BROKEN PAGE LMFAO WHAT DO YOU MEAAAN?

Keystones aside ofcourse. The tree itself is LEAGUES better than every other rune tree.

The only runner ups are Domination just because Zombie wards are THAT strong and Precision because Triumph is ridiculous.

Altiverse6 votes

Firstly, yes I am talking about Keystones. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough. On a side note here, since taking a Sorcery keystone does automatically mean you're taking 3 sorcery runes with it, and yet all these champions are better off with other paths, it's just too obvious Sorcery keystones need some changes.

[Off-topic] At any rate, while most of the Sorcery runes are viable to any role more than any other tree (and that's why I do think they should be left untouched, with the exception of Manaflow Band which is going to be changed soon), I don't see much ground to call the Sorcery tree broken as a whole, considering you can take a limited amount of runes. Every tree has a few redeeming runes that makes it worth it (while yes, others are pretty shit but w/e no one is forced to take them).

AirKingNeo17 votes

Literally everone is taking Comet.

It Hertz When IP3 votes

Even MF is routinely taking it, which is ridiculous, because she should be the poster child for Electrocute.

TheySeeMeWardin1 votes

Lol no, electrocute is not procked off w or ult, so she’d have to q, w, ult to prock it which is not reasonable. This is why you have champs like Morg taking comet too (which doesn’t feel great), aoe dot spells do not stack towards electrocute which op is talking about. While comet is great on poke mages like xerath or ziggs, it feels lack luster on champs like morg or zyra (champs where thunderlords use to preform and feel amazing). Not saying sorcery keystones or weak, cause they’re really strong, but I wish ALL mages had multiple paths like fighters or supports who can benefit from different tree’s keystones.

It Hertz When IP4 votes

I proc it all the time on her... AA > Q > AA.

Theorex1 votes

I agree that sorcery's MINOR runes are the best in the game.

But I believe he is solely speaking about Primary Runes.

No one will deny you that the Tier 1 Minor Runes in Sorcery are hands down the BEST in the game. No Other Set of Minor Runes can compare to those three. Nullifying Orb, ManaFlow band, and Ultimate hat.

Every other Decent Tier Set of runes can barely match out with Tier 2 of Minor Runes in Sorcery IMO. Transcendence, Celerity, and Absolute Focus (Mainly the first two).

Even the Tier 3 Minor Runes in Sorcery are still better than 50% of the minor runes in the game. Scorch, Waterwalking, and Gathering Storm.

I AM NOT DENYING THE OVERALL POWER OF SORCERY HERE.

What this person is talking about is, the overall weakness of mages and runes. More so the shitty spammy mages. Like Syndra. Who was better with TLD. But with the lose of TDL her win rate dropped really hard. Aery feels awful on her. Comet will only land if you hit W or E. Electrocute is impossible to proc 80% of the time (in my elo). Phase rush isn't happening.

Also, they still haven't addressed DoT mages that want to bring something other than Summoner Specialist or Aery. DFT?

AirKingNeo12 votes

Literally almost 1/4th to 1/3rd of champions take Sorcery. How is Sorcery bad?

Penns7 votes

I agree on ap items but I think sorcery runes kept getting nerfed for a reason. Also Im pretty sure most of those champs go comet or maybe spellbook because its opie

HeresyHorus5 votes

Nullifying Orb + Transcendence combo is the only thing that is good in Sorcery.

Ironically that combo was designed to favor Ad champs and not Mages while being in a Mage Tree.

Zed with item 3071 item 3812 item 3147 item 3156 core + that combo ....

Cant be bursted by Mages while getting free 2.5 item 1036 and still got 2 free slots for whatever u wish.

Mages cant abuse Transcendence like how Ad champs do.

item 3020 item 3135 item 3165 item 3136 Mages core built got only 1 item for CdR ....

Xerath Aim Bot4 votes

Youre telling me poke heavy champs arent taking sorcery poke keystones?

Ive been doing it all wrong...shit...

deathgod53 votes

Ironically the sourcery runes are extremely good for certain fighters/tanks like:

  • Camille
  • Olaf
  • Sion
  • Malphite

It's my biggest gripe of the new keystones as champs use keystones that are not placed in the tree you want them to be.

Arakadia2 votes

{quoted}

Ironically the sourcery runes are extremely good for certain fighters/tanks like:

  • Camille
  • Olaf
  • Sion
  • Malphite

It's my biggest gripe of the new keystones as champs use keystones that are not placed in the tree you want them to be.

Wait, your upset that there is rune diversity that isn't abuse and allows characters to bring different runes?

Kloak1 votes

{quoted}

Ironically the sourcery runes are extremely good for certain fighters/tanks like:

  • Camille
  • Olaf
  • Sion
  • Malphite

It's my biggest gripe of the new keystones as champs use keystones that are not placed in the tree you want them to be.

You forgot the abomination that is Pantheon

deathgod51 votes

I didn't forget, I just pretend he doesn't exist and even dodge games where my enemy has him from time to time.

Poske3 votes

Electrocute isnt worse TDL

as a Mage / ap assassin main

Completly disagree

Do you know why there is nullying orb hexdrinker 2.0 in runes. BECAUSE OF ELECTROCUTE

wildfox993 votes

{quoted}

Electrocute isnt worse TDL

as a Mage / ap assassin main

Completly disagree

Do you know why there is nullying orb hexdrinker 2.0 in runes. BECAUSE OF ELECTROCUTE

what about an AD with electrocute?

it's just unfair that it works only vs AP damage when we have no defensive options for ADs

Poske3 votes

if it worked against both types it would be staple rune

Assassins have lots of singletargeted burst

For example Le blanc can hit you with QR Double revolver and lichbane proc all being unmissable within 0.2 seconds and those do proc electrocute which is stronger version of tld in a nutshell

Diana can also delete in 0.3 seconds

There is also syndra

I mainly think this rune is here to make Le blanc and syndra point and click and click non overbearing. Also there is katarina which can become quite stat checky if she gets ahead while the only counterplay would be to stay out of her range

AD assassins fall of extremly hard which is why they have OP hexdrinker etc

Dont get me wrong I hate how worthless and noob baity armguard is for example

Vekkna1 votes

When anyone uses "falling off" as an excuse, it's just a de facto admission that the champion being discussed is, in fact, broken at certain stages of the game.

When games don't last long enough for champs to fall off, the champ is just broken, period.

Dingding1231 votes

And which tree is that rune in? Kappa

Violet Fields3 votes

You can tell EASILY without him saying it in the first place that he was talking about the keystone, stop thinking he's talking about Scorch, Transcendence, Nullifying Orb, etc.

Kairoptra3 votes

I speak for Vel'Koz and Vel'Koz alone, but chances are that if you are successfully procing Electrocute, you are more skilled at landing your abilities and your skill alone should win you the match. If, like me, you are less skilled, then you take Arcane Comet because you are unable to reliably proc Electrocute. Thusly, your skill alone should give you a lower win rate than the guy running Electrocute. It's not necessarily the keystone itself that gives those that run it a higher win rate with it, but rather the implications taking it has on the user's skill.

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

If you can land a E on the enemy, they are pretty much dead anyways. better have poke damage.

JarodDempsey2 votes

the tree is alright but the keystones are garbage as op says. To fix them:

  1. aerie should be changed to purely defensive, offering the shield and she should instantly blink to her target(travel back unchanged), she should also provide the passive heal/shield buff to her owner (from the resolve tree which needs to be significantly reworked anyways) while she isnt attached to an ally.
  2. comet is fine for long ranged champs, give it some type of very low range aoe slow or slow on enemy melee attack to better combo with these champions' kits while it orbits around its owner
  3. get rid of that speedboost rune and bring back thunderlords. it just adds to snowballing by giving them the ability to roll more and more people. thunderlords would give mages a much better option than execute due to the not needing 3 unique attacks as well as having aoe while trading some single target damage. plus they could actually not be forced to take the domination tree
GGLineaR2 votes

The sorcery keystones suck ass, tbh.

You only run sorcery for ultimate hat, manaflow band, scorch, or gathering storm.

Ionian Vulpix2 votes

I can speak on behalf of Ahri and Zyra, as well as the explanation for Summoner Specialist.

Ahri is a hybrid assassin, and like most assassins, she needs to snowball. However, her damage is on the lower side because of how safe she is. Electrocute is the added burst that she honestly needs in order to really get ahead in lane and hopefully be able to roam. Just as well, the Sorcery keystones feel much better on a burst mage who pokes or CCs you from a distance. Ahri can't use comet because it's much less reliable since Charm actually pulls them away from it. She can use Aery and did for a while (I still take it against Melee champs like Akali so I can bully them further.) but it's just usually not strong enough to justify taking it later on in game when you really need to burst someone down. And Phase Rush is just extremely unnecessary because of how safe she already it and how it doesn't add any damage to her combo.

Zyra can definitely take comet and do well with it, but Electrocute does more damage because every plant attack counts as one hit for it. Throw a Q and a seed and then auto someone and they take a lot of damage. And as an interesting note, Zombie Ward and Ghost Poro are both incredible runes for supports. Comet can work if you can reliably hit E or can get a Rylai's really quickly, but Electrocute does much more damage that can't miss at the expense of being up less frequently.

And Summoner Specialist has something that very few people took notice of when it was first announced. A massive CD reduction on summoners. A lot of those champs you listed (Annie, Kennen, Vlad, Malzahar) love the lower CD for flash engages more often.

iDarkWind1 votes

What are you talking about ? http://na.op.gg/champion/aurelionsol/statistics/mid http://na.op.gg/champion/malzahar/statistics/mid http://na.op.gg/champion/annie/statistics/mid http://na.op.gg/champion/taliyah/statistics/mid http://na.op.gg/champion/veigar/statistics/mid http://na.op.gg/champion/zilean/statistics/mid http://na.op.gg/champion/velkoz/statistics/mid http://na.op.gg/champion/anivia/statistics/mid

Seriously, what are you talking about? Only malzahar has a better win rate with the change spell thing, but even his second choice wich is aery has a 52% win rate. Stop farming those upvotes from people that will just agree without checking any data. Plus, AP itemazation has less diversity than AD, it isn't worst. Learn the difference. The main problem with AP itemazation it's that different playstyles on different champions still have the same core build and that's the only issue. It isn't weak or anything.

Altiverse2 votes

The problem with op.gg is that it doesn't show you the whole statistics. It's blocked by play rate threshold but much more importantly, a fully-set page rather than rune-specific statistics. (Champion.gg does the same) That means that the chance of runes with a lower pick rate having a full identical page that can get through the pick rate threshold is very low.

Check LoLalytics instead. They have play rate threshold block too, but they show rune-specific win rate/play rate instead (rather than full identical page), so this problem doesn't exist there.

Here's an example for Anivia. (just roll all the way down)

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Still seems that your information is a bit off. For example, I checked Lissandra in lolalytics and her best keystone is Arcane Comet in the sorcery tree, yet you listed her as being better with another keystone.

Heimerdinger does extremely well with comet, too. Just beaten by Klepto, but since he plays top lane where he can proc it easily without retaliation, that's to be expected. In mid lane (where he actually has to fear some trade back) his best keystone is comet.

Azir is a weird case, since he is a mage, but his kit requires him to AA alot, which means he has an easier time proccing Electrocute by default. Him working well with it is to be expected.

Looking at some of the data you claimed here, it loses some credibility for me. Either the champs are not working better with other keystones as you claimed, or there is a pretty good reason in their kit why exactly they work better with something else.

xelaker1 votes

the sorcery tree is amazing! free damage, mana, cd and so on. if the other trees are so great take them as a primary or secondary.

Jmman1 votes

I think what he is getting at is its better on NON-mage champ than the Mage dps champs. Make the "mages" tree more a support and extra ad poke/extra damage tree

MohawkBird1 votes

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Jmman1 votes

It just seems nothing is really just for "mages". This is the same issue certain bruisers have. Support, assassins, adc, and tanks have multiple choices to meet their playstyle and weaknesses. Mages just get the generic store band runes and items. Its almost like the wrath of the lick king pvp. Casters CC, damage, sustain down. Melee damage sustain and mobility way up. Its would be nice if would could cater to all groups. Just some are just more equal an others.

MohawkBird1 votes

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Jmman2 votes

But if you look at Domination or any other tree they have requirements that makes the runes not really work with them. Immobile mages cant proc the -magic resists. They don't have dashes or flashy things. Eyeballs can be collected and stacked from wards using item 3147. Its like AD can use any of the runes without really trying. And Mages have to really really try or can't use some tunes all together. Its almost like they made sure AD could use everything then just let casters with whatever.

Two maybe three choices isn't the same as being able to use about anything. Why isn't only AP damage proc Aery the way only AA can proc things. The Mages tree was made specifically so AD can use it but the AD tree have runes made so AP can't use them. That is the point. Something tells me you have no clue how much more AD has over AP.... and how much easier and all the runes work with AAers vs casters with really slow and weird AA animations.

Why can't push the attack proc off of 3 AP damage hits? What isn't the shield in sorcery AD or AP. I'm ok with different things but it always seem that AD get the advantage on everything. Its just getting old and stale at this point.

MohawkBird1 votes

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Vekkna1 votes

You'd be able to make this comparison if and only if PtA was proc'd by physical damage only

All auto attacks include physical damage, so PtA is literally limited to physical damage only.

The only exception is maybe Morde's Q?

Jmman1 votes

funny thing is I have been playing tanks and udyr jungle / top

No I don't feel gimp like I did with ap. I'm being "force" to change who I want to for ranked. Notice I only play fiddle support. But then I play blitz alistar tehm loena support now they are all a lot stronger against tanks. AP can't deal damage to tanks unless your Brand once they get a lot of MR. Udyr and Ram are 10 times better and more fun at jungle.

Yea I have ALOT of game in the past on fiddle. But you really should check this year and my champs then eat crow.

PtA is 12% damage and and extra 100 some on each attack after 3 AA? yep that 30 extra damage on a spell hit is sooooooooooooo leet now. What no CD on it... well my Aery will be back any day now.

Iffy Jarl1 votes

Scores of top laners are using sorcery keystones though

Camille Chogath Darius Gnar Jayce Malphite Mordekaiser Olaf Pantheon Rumble Teemo Singed Swain Urgot

and even more aren't using the Resolve keystones So I don't the think premise of your argument is sound

Vekkna1 votes

And Riot is making a new keystone to accommodate a big chunk of this list.

As a general rule, you only use Sorc keystones if your champ can't reliably use Domination keystones, and you prefer the flat AD/AP from Sorc over the attack speed from Precision.

Teemo and maybe Singed are the only ones on that list that are excited about taking a Sorc keystone.

Iffy Jarl1 votes

Alot of these just want the poke and mana efficiency of the tree in the form Comet/aery, and manaflow, scorch. Also some of these champs don't have build paths that take them to 40 cdr and enjoy transcendence.

And if the matchup calls for it switch to the domination tree for electrocute which a few of these champs do regularly.

But you are bringing up a new point the point I was addressing by op is the premise that because some mages aren't using the sorcery keystones the key stones are objectively worse than the ones the mages are taking favor of them.

But in reality the sorcery tree isn't some sort of pre-galio rework meme that is just the worse tree plenty of champs from other lanes covet the sorcery keystone and tree.

Vekkna1 votes

The Sorc tree is very good. In fact, I think it's designed and balanced far better than the other trees.

The keystones are generally not good, and the champs you listed are usually going Sorc keystones because there is no ideal option for them. It's sort of like MF taking DFT in the old mastery trees. In fact, most of your examples are DoT champs who take Aery because DFT was removed, and if DFT stayed at the power level of current keystones it would almost certainly be picked over Aery.

Iffy Jarl1 votes

most of my examples are DFT champs.... dude wtf are you talking about

i kick routers1 votes

[deleted]

Iffy Jarl1 votes

good anivia players

Harden Stepback1 votes

How about you change the title to ADC items

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