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What we call "Tanks" in gaming don't actually exist in LoL

Eedat··47 votes·5,501 views

Traditonal "Tanks" in gaming don't exist in LoL

What do we refer to when we call something a "Tank" in gaming? Well lets start by defining what a "Tank" is in gaming. It goes back to the early days of MMOs and even MUDs (precursor to MMOs). People realized that it was a great strategy for have one person abandon as many offensive capabilities as possible in return for bolstering their defenses as much as possible. It was favorable for this one person to attract the "aggro" of the enemy mobs which left your DPS classes open to pump out as much damage as physically possible. Not only did it leave the rest of your party free of danger which results in higher overall DPS, but it also made it simple for the healer to do their job.

What we refer to as a "Tank" only really exists in PvE.

So why don't these exist in LoL? Well, in PvE mobs don't use logic and are governed by a set of rules. This allows an aggro system to be set up where people can force mobs to attack certain people. If these mobs in PvE had a brain, they would simply ignore the tanks and target the DPS classes. In PvP however, there is no set of rules governing that people have to attack the tank. Real people can just ignore the tank.

So what are "Tanks" in LoL? Well theyre more towards the middleground. They aren't straight up "Tanks". The only way you can get real people to focus the 'tank' in PvP is to make them a legitimate threat. This is why Tanks actually do damage in LoL. If tanks are an actual threat, people have to focus them instead of ignore them.

What does this mean?

On one hand, "Tanks" in a PvP game like LoL have to do some sort of damage or else they will be completely ignored and worthless.

On the other hand, there has to be a trade off. You don't get to retain the defenses of a full "Tank" and get meaningful damage on top of it.

In most MMOs, Tanks won't even do a tenth of the damage as a dedicated DPS class in raids. So if you all want "Tanks" that can survive an entire team's worth of DPS for 10 seconds and walk away, you don't get to keep the damage too. Tanks of this caliber should never EVER do anything even remotely close to the damage of a dedicated DPS class.

So which do you want? Because you don't get to facetank an entire team and still do meaningful damage too. You don't get both.

99 Comments

Melledoneus34 votes

Then in that case carries shouldn't be able to nullify huge portions of our defense and become drain tanks in fights because our armor is useless against them.

At least against mages when they get item 3135 we can just stack HP.

Against ADCs HP and armor become meaningless once that stupid 1300 gold item item 3035 is bought.

Take away my meaningful damage, but remove %armor pen completely as a trade-off.

Eedat13 votes

Then in that case carries shouldn't be able to nullify huge portions of our defense

You seem to be forgetting that Armor and MR nullify AD and AP to begin with. Even after you factor in penetration, the net result is that you ignore a large portion of the damage they do.

This also goes back to Tanks not being able to be invincible. Tanks need to be able to be killed or they shouldnt have relevant damage period. Removing Penetration items would mean tanks would ignore 80%+ of incoming damage while still dishing out damage of their own.

Doesn't work like that. Sorry, not sorry. You don't get both.

Melledoneus16 votes

I said take away the damage, but make tanks much, much harder to kill. That way it's balanced.

As I said...

Take away my meaningful damage, but remove %armor pen completely as a trade-off.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I said take away the damage, but make tanks much, much harder to kill. That way it's balanced.

As I said...

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's ever realistic in LoL. Tanks need to be a threat. And in particular, tanks need to have the ability to pressure in lane and that does require some semblance of damage to obtain that threat. That's why when tanks are "good" they feel like complete horseshit to fight because of being hard to kill while having the ability to kill you.

Riot is trying to address that in the tank rework but I don't know if you can achieve that and keep solo lane tanks viable at the same time.

Melledoneus1 votes

I'm pretty sure being CC'd is a huge threat in itself to a glass cannon.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure being CC'd is a huge threat in itself to a glass cannon.

It is but glass cannons have also gained so many items over the years that help them deal with this. That's not even factoring in what their supports may but for them or their team comp.

Melledoneus1 votes

But then they use an important cooldown and your divers, assassins, and skirmishers can jump in and deal serious damage.

I can trump every example of any item with a simple solution.

LordGeovanni1 votes

important cooldown that has an 8 second cooldown ofthen and they fight just stopps completely until the adc decides to show back up there is never an opportunity to for fighters to go in not that you can have fighters and a tank in the same team and still be effective outside of pro play (supports cant be considered main tanks with how they build slower than everyone else and tank items are already only good the first 15 minutes of the game.

LordGeovanni1 votes

people make the mistake that cc is a threat but cc is completely useless without damage cc is never what kills you damage is.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

The threat of tanks is their CC. Of course, this brings us to Juggernauts, a different class who both deals damage and is tanky, but has little mobility or CC, who would become god-tier if % armor pen was removed.

PB4UAME1 votes

They build mostly hp items by design, and don't resist stack as true tanks do.

AninLegions7772 votes

Stack HP? Are you smart? item 3151

Melledoneus5 votes

Mages, unless you're a shit-show freak of balance like Cassiopeia, have rotations that can run out. Should you survive the rotation, the mage has a down-time you can use to defeat them.

chipndip12 votes

Ahri : item 3116 item 3151 + 45% cdr incoming

Melledoneus1 votes

This isn't URF. Ahri has a down time, and her Q has a travel time.

chipndip12 votes

  1. It's a joke. >_>

  2. Ahri's Q and W on 45% cdr is actually pretty dang low for a mage. If dealing with tanks was truly your concern, you could repeatedly get the enhanced burn off by landing Q's and W's repeatedly. Not that it's smart to do this, but if we were going in that hard on clowning these boys...

AninLegions7772 votes

Considering most of them have CC of some form, good luck with catching them. And oh, CDR is easy to get so this downtime you speak of is like 2 seconds or less.

Spoofghoul1 votes

I kind of agree with this

but i think there could be other trade offs to having damage on a tank as well

look at sion for example, for him to hit hard he needs to charge up his q for 2 seconds for full damage plenty of time to move out of the way same with the shield Even the ultimate needs charging time to get to fulls strength This does not only apply to the damage part but also to the cc parts

it's a fair trade off i think

Tanks needs some measure of drawing aggro or forcing you to deal with them in some way otherwise you will be ignored

This doesn't have to come from damage but it could as long as it's not super reliable

Other means could be draining resources like if we had an item which drains enemy resource and converts it into healing for the tank like a modified lifesteal/grasp sort of thing. Or something which slows down attack speed like malphite does

this way you have to either finish enemy damage dealers fast or risk running out of gas due to ignoring the tank, it forces you to play around the tank being there to disrupt your efforts to do something

Tanks could also have aura's like something which heals nearby allies likea heimer passive on steroids, which gets disabled if they take damage for example, could be a toggle ability

again a way to make tanks a target without them needing so much damage,

sunfire cape is good example of how tanks could deal damage, it doesn't deal much damage but let the tank sit on your face for 20 seconds and it burns off plenty of hp Tanks need some damage to function they need to be able to cs or take a jungle camp

A lot of this can be done through itemization whilst giving tanks their niche roles through heir kits, this means we should also give tanks natural durability luckily riot is trending this way so who knows we might see some good changes this year

50000000000000001 votes

I think they're changing Sunfire Cape for MSTU, particularly because ambient damage doesn't create interesting gameplay.

Gnart Even Close2 votes

I believe they said they're going to keep Sunfire Cape and that not everything needs interesting gameplay. I think they also said they're moreso looking to take burst damage away from tanks by making them space their abilities out more and having more interesting spells (i.e. Sejuani's W isn't all that interesting).

LordGeovanni1 votes

There are already trade offs to having damage on a tank you are melee the whole game. You are slow. Your cooldowns are longer than anyone else's (Your damage gets gimped if you have hard or soft cc. Your cooldowns get gimped if you have hard or soft cc). Your mana costs are higher than anyone else's. Your mana pool is lower than anyone else's. Your spells have long cast animations. Your spells cooldowns dont start when you cast but when the spell ends. Even if you have ranged spells its range is small. Your damage gets gimped if you have a sheild or sustain.

Critmaster Garen20 votes

i feel like this is again one of those cases, where the op has a narrow minded view on game balance.

a champion can be as tanky as a tank while dealing carry level damage and still be balanced due to other tradeoffs and gameplay counters.

if youre actually talking about tanks and not juggernauts, they DO deal far less damage than carries. they just tend to win drawn out battles of attrition against squishy champions.

Eedat6 votes

Thats literally what I said.....

Tanks in this game have some sort of relevant damage, but that comes at the cost of not facetanking an entire team like its nothing.

Critmaster Garen12 votes

{quoted}

Thats literally what I said.....

Tanks in this game have some sort of relevant damage, but that comes at the cost of not facetanking an entire team like its nothing.

ok, then what do you consider relevant damage? because the way you were talking, you compared tank damage to carry damage which got me confused.

i mean even if you would make tanks twice as tanky and cut their damage in half, they would still deal relevant damage, as they would eventually wear their opponent down and win, even if the process is even slower than now. however at the same time they would be able to tank entire teams.

Eedat6 votes

I mean enough damage to be considered a threat. Enough that you can't just ignore the tank

FooDang4 votes

{quoted}

Enough that you can't just ignore the tank

Whats the point of playing the champ if you could just ignore me lol

Brain Errör 4045 votes

Sion ?

You legit have to ignore this guy in teamfights. Lol. He does barely any damage late game and is literally a cc bot. I hate when teams blow EVERYTHING to kill a Sion that actually becomes MORE of a threat when he DIES.

However, though you have to ignore him, it isn't that simple as he legit disrupts your whole team. You ignore him whiles dodging all of his abilities. That's why, in terms of tank balance, I find Sion to be one of the most balanced champs in the game.

The same with Malphite. Once he blows his ulti, you ignore him late game and focus his surrounding team members. He's legit useless at that point (unless he's ap) albeit his insane attack speed debuff. Naut is another guy you have to ignore for as long as possible until you take care of the damage threats.

There are a few balanced tanks out there that can be ignored. And then some you can't:

TahmKench Poppy Maokai

Incarceration1 votes

You ignore a Malphite? Malphite can kill your AD carry in one combo if you let him, even if he is full tank.

50000000000000001 votes

If they get killed in one combo, there's not much you can do anyway.

Incarceration1 votes

He still might go for your mid laner, so that's something you can prevent.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

As DPS champs, once tanks and teams blow all their important summs, you should ignore them and get rid of the main threats asap. I'm not saying your whole team should ignore him, but he shouldn't be a central focus. It's never a one way street when you're talking about certain things in league. xd

Flawless Fetus1 votes

Lol. Drawn out battles. Juggernauts kill squishes as fast as assassins, and tanks aren't far behind. Nothing drawn out about it.

LordGeovanni1 votes

they wouldnt be squishies if they didnt die fast when caught now would they?

Erytroxylin8 votes

{quoted}

People realized that it was a great strategy for have one person abandon as many offensive capabilities as possible in return for bolstering their defenses as much as possible.

No, it really wasn't like that. Nobody abandoned offensive capabilities. They just picked up defensive ones first. It's not the same thing. In most games, "tanks" still had more than enough damage to kill peeps. I know it's nit-picky but one of my pet peeves is thinking tanks have to be low damage.

MisterShameless2 votes

Interestingly enough, I use to play an MMO RPG where you had pets which were available to everyone where Tanks/Healers would take pets that were offensive and Carries would take defesive pets so that there was ways of doing most things without a party being required (not including all dungeons or bosses (and higher)). So there are games that allows you to lose certain stats without missing out on events or quests because you lack certain stats, although not sure myself what percentage of games let you do this.

Ralanr7 votes

I actually like the damage.

Eedat3 votes

As would most people. This means tanks don't get to eat an entire teams worth of DPS like its nothing though

chipndip11 votes

They used to, but one guy eating 5 ults, constant right-click DPS, and a few item actives while leisurely strolling out of a base looks ridiculously silly, so they nerfed it. Hell, even now, you still CAN pull that off if you play it right.

I mean, how long SHOULD a tank last in a team fight taking EVERYONE'S focused fire?

Anags6 votes

Funny when you think that in WoW prot specs weren't always bad in pvp and could still 1v1. Hell healers at times were unkillable, and could 1v1. You had thing like feral druids that could tank and do damage very easily. Granted that game changed a lot over time and I haven't played in years so I forget a lot of it.

But you really can't compare those games at all with league. They aren't even close to being the same. Compare it to Dota or heroes of the storm or smite. But not mmos. It doesn't make any sense.

dunder kill3 votes

Why do you think people despised paladins? Because they are exactly what he described. A full blown tank that still did relevant damage. They were bullshit and overwhelmingly hated

Eedat2 votes

BUBBLE INTENSIFIES

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Reminds me of my SWtor days when it was an MMO and not the mess it is now. I played a chunk of PvP and funnily enough my character was a "juggernaut" but nevertheless he was a hybrid class. Full tank or full dps. Even as a tank he was a threat. Lots of cc and also NOT ignorable dmg. I could easily duel two "hypercarries" meaning maros and snipers who where pure dmg classes if i used my deff CDs right. Never heard complaining anyone about that one since he still had exploitable weaknesses. I don't know where the conception in LoL comes from that tanks shouldnt deal any dmg whatsoever. I can only speak for SWTOR but when we parsed our raids our DDs would usually deal 3-4k dps. Meanwhile the tanks still dealt around 1,5k dps to enemies. Far less than DD classes but definitely something. Or CoH. Once you got in range of the Königstiger you can say bye bye to every single one of your tanks while also being an unkillable mess of steel. Unfortunately shermans could just circle you and penetrate your armor from the side or behind with no follow up possibility for the Königstiger.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

I'd disagree in other games a tank will murder you if you get close to them as a damage dealer.

way more than league.

Ralanr3 votes

I honestly like Overwatch tanks for similar reasons. Except Dva, I hate Dva.

Spicy Rice3 votes

To be fair, most of the tanks in overwatch are more like our juggernauts and bruisers.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

{quoted}

I honestly like Overwatch tanks for similar reasons. Except Dva, I hate Dva.

I hate d'va too shes a pub stomp and strong against beginners. strong ulti. hsa to kill her twice. dps and tankiness. shuts down most fun champions.

but I like overwatch and I used to be an ow hater. I quit league and I aint coming back until the snowball meta ends.

there is no snowball in overwatch. extremely fun and quite possibly the most balanced pvp objective based game I ever played.

whats your ign I wil add you on ow?

Sahn Uzal3 votes

Tanks don't exactly have both though. The thing is that Tanks have base damage, for good reasons, as you pointed out. Tank Itemisation is very effective and efficient during the midgame.

This leads to some very well rounded mid game champions. They have respectable base damage, they have CC, and they are very hard to kill.

But then you reach lategame, and their base damage starts becomming irrelevant. Tank itemisation becomes less effective because the diminishing value, and people start buying % Pen items. Usually with %hp damage on top of it.

At this point, tanks want to hug their carries to prevent the enemy from melting them and CCing enemies is their main survivability.

IMO, we should let tanks have a relevant late game, where they can still be the hard-to-kill Tank their fantasy promises, but their midgame won't feel as overwhelming.

LordGeovanni2 votes

Keep gimping heals which is also a base in mmos that tanks need to function in mmos then tell tanks that they cant have their defense Not to mention that defense is far worse than offense in that its only good early but you cant get it fast enough early because you lack constant damage. ps mmo tanks arent ever incabable of doing damage just that they stop trying to do damage so that they can defend more effectively mmo tanks can easily put out half as much damage as a dedicated dps but thier defense suffers thats how they are allowed to still play solo. and we dont talk about marksmen in mmos who do small damage but constantly over a long time and how the only class with high crit is assassin classes. or how mages are supposed to have longer cooldowns spells than any other class in exchange for their high damage spells.

Titanium702 votes

While ture - that's exactly what alot of people are complaining about and I can't see any reason for NOT including an actual Tank-Class! For example by an Item that reduces all incoming DMG while reducing all DMG dealt. Or a Mastery, with a similar effect depending on LVL, preventing an overly stale laning while allowing great Tanking capeabilities in Teamfights.

Tanks in League CAN exist! Sure in PVP you dont have an aggro system. But you do have CC! And hey - try to do your Carry-Things with a CC machine in your face!

Stell1 votes

gbay99

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