Hey Riot how about instead of nerfing Lulu's ult base values you nerf the ap ratios instead

TheLittlestLulu·Mar 10, 2016·66 votes·1,957 views

nah though lets pretend support Lulu doesn't exist.

Again.

23 Comments

Curling VeigarMar 10, 201616 votes

i don't think utility scaling should be a thing in general

Zone of EndlessMar 11, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=Curling Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yYAxcEe7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-10T23:53:15.783+0000)

i don't think utility scaling should be a thing in general

They introduced that near the end of season 3/pre season 4 and I never saw a good thing from it.

plantersMar 11, 20169 votes

It was originally created so that supports could feel more impactful to the game and more powerful as the game went on. The problem with the implementation is that they made it scale off of AP and didnt create a unique support stat to do the scaling with. This has led to supports being awkward with lulu being the prime example. In order to get a lot out of the scalings you basically need to solo lane to get the AP needed to make the scaling impactful. Most supports cant solo lane so it turns out to almost never be impactful. The idea was fine but the change missed the mark and the lack of removal of the support scaling has stifled the game with unnecessary clunkiness. All-in-all it was a good idea that needs to be removed because it completely missed the intended mark.

Zone of EndlessMar 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It was originally created so that supports could feel more impactful to the game and more powerful as the game went on. The problem with the implementation is that they made it scale off of AP and didnt create a unique support stat to do the scaling with. This has led to supports being awkward with lulu being the prime example. In order to get a lot out of the scalings you basically need to solo lane to get the AP needed to make the scaling impactful. Most supports cant solo lane so it turns out to almost never be impactful. The idea was fine but the change missed the mark and the lack of removal of the support scaling has stifled the game with unnecessary clunkiness. All-in-all it was a good idea that needs to be removed because it completely missed the intended mark.

I know. I read about it and it's why i hate it so much. The whole point of support is to initiate/follow up/saving teammates and they feel impactful from doing that with their kit and being successful.

You never see support in RPG or other game doing tons of damage.

plantersMar 11, 20165 votes

I honestly feel that just getting rid of the support class as a whole might be one answer to the problem. It's not that you should get rid of the champions, but if you think about it, a lot of non-support champions can fill the niche fairly well, so why have supports as a class? It would be simpler to just balance all champions around being solo laners that you just happen to take into duo lanes. That said Im not entirely sure how plausible this is right now.

AnidanMar 11, 20163 votes

Could always do it like DotA2 does it. There are very few designated 'support only' heroes over there, and the support role works just fine because more freedom is allowed for the role and what is and is not a support is determined by the players, not some forced attempt by the game designers. Support Lina? Sure, however she can also be a duo lane or mid lane carry. Support Crystal Maiden? It's not easy, but she can also do a role in which gets gets more money because of the nature of her kit. Lion and Warlock? You better believe they can mid-lane competently. Nyx Assassin can be a support, off-laner or mid laner. Support Wraith King? You better believe he can. Support Pudge? Same principle as Blitzcrank. Support Morphling? Don't underestimate that stun from strength form. Support Naga? Yeppers. Support Zeus, Windranger, Night Stalker, you get the point.

Br4ndonMar 12, 20161 votes

Utility scaling was just riots excuse to nerf supports.

manbearswineMar 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Curling Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yYAxcEe7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-10T23:53:15.783+0000)

i don't think utility scaling should be a thing in general

The idea was/is fine. They just underestimated+refuse to address the fact tank stats are just much more valuable on a support,so those who make best use of them dominate,and those who don't,well,if they have waveclear they go to other lanes.

Tobias BracknerMar 10, 20161 votes

She turns any person who dives into a tanky initiator. Her dmg his fine and scaling on her utility is awesome.

Curling VeigarMar 11, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yYAxcEe7,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-03-10T23:56:42.303+0000)

She turns any person who dives into a tanky initiator. Her dmg his fine and scaling on her utility is awesome.

Utility scaling is cancer. It's never fine.

When's the last time you get 100-0d by an Orianna and feel like that she should have Veigar tier burst with that much utility?

KING 5HARKMar 11, 20162 votes

Utility scaling is cancer. It's never fine.

Why should only damage scale off AP?

When's the last time you get 100-0d by an Orianna and feel like that she should have Veigar tier burst with that much utility?

Whens the last time you got crit by an ADC and thought he shouldnt have Fiora level damage on top of 5 times the range?

Tobias BracknerMar 11, 20161 votes

This. Utility scaling is fucking awesome.

Also Ori doesn't have Veig level burst. She must've been fed as fuck and you had no MR.

Ruin LanceMar 11, 20161 votes

"she turns any person who dives into a tanky initiator" which is retarded because it also scales with ap

Vistha KaiMar 11, 20161 votes

You missed the point entirely.

Tobias BracknerMar 11, 20161 votes

I think you missed the point entirely.

Her utility is still godlike.

Baby GhoulMar 11, 20161 votes

This is just another example in a long line that show that Riot neglects supports.

Overlooking how popular support Lulu is and how these nerfs will effect her support role seems like such a big oversight.

Biff ManlyMar 11, 20161 votes

The answer is clearly "more stats"

Gone are the days of simple AD and AP. Now we shall have Block vs Puncture, Stealth vs Perception, Dexterity vs Reload Time, Palm Size vs Slap Damage.

And then maybe (an an actual serious suggestion) a stat opposite to Tenacity, to scale CC's.

EcchiOtakuTMMar 11, 20161 votes

All they have to do is change lulu's Q so it doesn't affect winions.

BOOM laner lulu gutted.

DatalessMar 11, 20161 votes

Utility scaling is fine, Lulu's safety and overwhelming flexibility/utility as a solo laner are not.

The DeckownerMar 11, 20161 votes

all of the LCS Lulu mid is putting her in a bad place.

Frick MakoMar 11, 20161 votes

What if Riot removed the AP scaling entirely from whimsy, but buffed it to 40% bonus movement speed at all ranks, like the old Lulu? That would be a small nerf to solo Lulu, but would be a buff to bot Lulu.

SohleksMar 12, 20161 votes

Sorta saying like the devil's advocate, but it's probably because an ap ratio nerf wouldn't really be felt until late in the game when much AP is built at which point it wouldn't matter; the better coordinated team would still win. (it'd be a nerf even less effective)... Unless the ap ratios were totally toned down to almost zero, at which point you have a design and consistency issue, and an issue with no Lulu player support or not is able to build and fulfill a "high powered" build, defaulting to tank builds, which is thematically weird.