yorick sucks
illaoi is good at tilting you but not much else
garen is still awful
Shyvana is on her way out again (good riddance tbqf)
trundle, volibear, udyr, who even plays these guys xd
7.4 should come with a mass buff to all these champions
Ad Vitam Aeterna7 voteshttps://www.champion.gg/champion/Yorick
yorick has a positive win rate, he's not that bad.
Big Lincoln1 votesyorick is certified zombified booty butt cheeks
TyrekGoldenspear4 votesGood old Uncle Lincoln.
Always thinking that you're the standard for rework quality. :)
Ahristocats4 votesOut of the juggernaut, he's not binary Hell out of all melee champions he's not binary, i can't think of someone like him
Darius when you play him has so much outcome, there are many things that can happen: -you dunk someone low and get noxian might and then win -you hit a tank to get noxian might and then win -you hook the backline and destroy them with your team -you hook the backline but they escape -you fail your hook -you get destroyed -you get destroyed but manage to heal with Q
What outcome shyvana has? -manage to hit people and win -kited and lose
Darius is the best thing that happened to league
Penns3 votesAll of those champs are pretty good tho, Darius is just too good lol.
Best princess EU1 votessee the champs listed above
never saw them picked not once
what about darius?
i see him in ~~10% of my games, why isn't he permapicked?
i see more 
than him,what's wrong?
TyrekGoldenspear2 votesI say we have CertainlyT rework them all.
I want Garen to have a resource. Of Justice.
This would then be a good enough reason for him to get stronger.
Big Lincoln1 votesi think garen should be reevaluated
he doesn't have the tools to be an efficient anti-carry, so I think a new role would be better for him
like carry :^)
Shuriman Curator1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXkcshHV,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-01-13T15:51:08.298+0000)
i think garen should be reevaluated
he doesn't have the tools to be an efficient anti-carry, so I think a new role would be better for him
like carry :^)
I think he should get an entirely new passive, he only rewarded by going in, then retreating to regen. Maybe in combat sustain?
TyrekGoldenspear2 votesThe sustain of Justice!
BastionKross1 votesTo be fair, he certainly used to have the tools to be an anti carry. That is until 
got nerfed, marksmen got 
nerfed, 
lost some stats, and boot enchantments got removed entirely.
And what compensation did Garen get? A whole lot of nothing. At least until almost a year later when he was given free armor pen on his spin, which was nice but didn't really help.
Shuyin1782 votesHello Darius, are you ready to get tongue punched in the fart box?
dominusx1 votesdarius has a way to stick to the target and a way to get the target ontop of him. what do the rest have? illaoi her E???LUL Garen? Yorick and eays to dodge slow and an almost useless cage? Udyr has to RUN up and slap you trundle is semi decent but the support items made him useless. Voli? same as Udyr.
Big Lincoln1 votesso what ur saying is give every juggernaut a pull
dominusx1 votesgive juggernauts a way to stick to opponents even if it's situational.
Ralanr1 votesBC and TF are calling.
Big Lincoln1 votesin kit sticking power would be better for everyone
If they're balanced around not being able to stick then an item letting them do it makes them oppressive
Ralanr1 votesThe problem is that this gives them good power against their intended weakness, kiting.
As much as I'd like to have champions balanced around their kits and not so much the items they buy, core items in build exist for a reason. This isn't HoTS.
Big Lincoln1 votesIf nothing else they need a way to force you to them or vice versa, or be able to pull you back if they play well
juggernauts are IMO weaker to disengage than kiting alone. at least that's how Darius works vs most non-kalista champs
Ralanr1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXkcshHV,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-13T15:53:05.534+0000)
If nothing else they need a way to force you to them or vice versa, or be able to pull you back if they play well
juggernauts are IMO weaker to disengage than kiting alone. at least that's how Darius works vs most non-kalista champs
Then they'd be incredibly oppressive because they have the inherent advantage in 1v1 fights due to durability and damage. Darius "works" because he breaks the rule of having no way to force fights, but as a result he's really oppressive to every top laner that isn't ranged.
Big Lincoln1 votesDarius works because you can still dodge and play around his melee presence
illaoi can't force you to fight but she never feels fair when you actually get near her and you get to beat to death by tentacles
Ralanr1 votesNone of them really feel fair. I still don't like Darius's Q counterplay because the last thing I want is to be closer to the guy bleed stacking passive.
PermabannedGaren2 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXkcshHV,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-13T16:23:03.713+0000)
Darius works because you can still dodge and play around his melee presence
illaoi can't force you to fight but she never feels fair when you actually get near her and you get to beat to death by tentacles
There is frankly no real difference.
Going to be honest with you friend. That silly "if you're in the center of his Q you take less damage" shit? For the vast majority of melee champions in the top lane, this is just false counterplay.
And the reason for that is simple. Darius does not need his Q to stat-check most champions. He has a damage over time bleed he stacks on every auto or Q, and stacking them up gives him 40 or more AD. Forty AD at level one is fucking enormous.
Who can actually fight Darius if they were to go into his inner circle to avoid the blade of his Q? If both are six Trundle can. Maybe Volibear can level one and two. A lucky Tryndamere can. Maybe a hypothetical Xin Zhao top lane? Perhaps Yorick, due to his ghoul DPS.
And that's about it.
See, that's the hilarity of Darius. He does have counterplay in his kit, in the force of the avoidable damage of his Q blade. The joke is that even without that damage, he will still easily kill most melee champions in an all in.
Do you know what happens to a Yasuo, whose early game strength is bitched about constantly, if he tries to man-fight Darius after Darius whiffed his Q? He dies, easily. Yasuo at least can feasibly get away from Darius, and it's STILL a losing match-up lol.
Darius players are so funny. They like to pretend their champion is completely fun to lane against, but then whine about ranged top laners beating them with no counterplay (I don't know if you do this, but I see it often).
Big Lincoln1 votesa lot of melees can fight Darius early on
Riven, Fiora, Jax, Renekton, Rumble, Maokai
Even Poppy and Yasuo, who he crushes, can best him in short fights by dodging the Q and getting damage off on him
I personally think Yorick loses hard to him and would even harder if his cage didn't bug AA resets, but Darius statistically loses to him so idk
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXkcshHV,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-01-13T17:15:12.938+0000)
a lot of melees can fight Darius early on
We shall see.
Riven, Fiora, Jax, Renekton, Rumble, Maokai
Riven beats Darius in lane because she can keep him from doing damage to her with her mobility and CC, eventually whittling him down for an all-in. If she merely tried to man-fight him early on she would die.
So Fiora just straight up loses to Darius in lane. Late game she dumpsters him 1v1 easily, but in lane she gets out-traded hard. She can't beat him in an all-in early on, nor does she beat him in trades. There is potential for outplay for Fiora, but generally speaking she loses. I'd actually imagine the match-up is even more slanted in Darius' favor now, since he uses CoC, which is a good counter to her percent health true damage.
Jax? One of the most dominant early game melees against one of the weakest? I kind of doubt it. Maybe if he uses his E to avoid enough of Darius' autos and his W.
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Jax/
According to lolalytics anyway Darius is one of the most common champions for him to have to deal with, and he does seem to lose that more on average.
Late game Jax is obviously stronger, but in lane Darius should win.
Renekton can beat Darius by dashing to him, doing his combo, then dashing out. In a prolonged duel Darius will destroy Renekton. Probably at any stage of the game.
Rumble is not a melee champion, lol. Oh sure his auto attacks are melee, but he beats champions like Darius by harassing them from range. I also sincerely doubt Darius loses 1v1 to Rumble early on in a base to base man-fight.
Maokai? Dafuq? Maokai is a tank. Darius doesn't give a single shit about most tanks in lane, and Maokai is no exception.
Even Poppy and Yasuo, who he crushes, can best him in short fights by dodging the Q and getting damage off on him
Key word being "short fights". Also, Poppy has no way to disengage from Darius. I'm pretty sure she just gets zoned from CS and chunked when she tries to, lol.
If Yasuo Es onto Darius to avoid the Q he is probably going to be out-traded hard. I seriously think you are underestimating how hard it is to trade with Darius as most melees due to his passive.
I personally think Yorick loses hard to him and would even harder if his cage didn't bug AA resets, but Darius statistically loses to him so idk
I don't really know how the lane goes, but as the game goes on I'd imagine Yorick would probably dump on Darius one on one. Yorick is among the better duelists as far as juggernauts go, probably just behind Nasus and Trundle.
Dociet1 votesThe issue is that here you are assuming the laners will play like dumbasses and take extended fights with Darius. A big part of his counterplay in lane is that you force him to pull you with no stacks/one-two, then you fight him until you have 3 (four if you're confident) then you get out. letting him abuse his passive is like fighting yorick when he has 4 ghouls. it's stupid as fuck because thats where so much of his damage comes from.
PermabannedGaren1 votesThe issue is that here you are assuming the laners will play like dumbasses and take extended fights with Darius. A big part of his counterplay in lane is that you force him to pull you with no stacks/one-two, then you fight him until you have 3 (four if you're confident) then you get out. letting him abuse his passive is like fighting yorick when he has 4 ghouls. it's stupid as fuck because thats where so much of his damage comes from.
There is no assumption. For most melee champions they can't just walk away from Darius without getting chunked. Even if he doesn't activate Noxian Might they will probably lose the trade. If he does activate Noxian Might, they will either die or be in a position to be easily killed if they even try to CS.
Darius can stand between his laning opponent and the minion wave as he farms, depriving them of CS, because if they try to walk their melee up to CS they are going to be auto>W>auto'd into an immediate three stacks, which he gets with more autos and maybe a Q after he Es them when he tries to run.
Darius is not like Illaoi. He can actually force fights with his laning opponents. That's why he is so oppressive in the laning phase.
Meep Man1 votesyorick sucks
You insult one of my mains, you insult my HONOR! I'll show you the power of the shovel.
Big Lincoln1 votesi have never felt threatened by him, especially not in lane
maybe its cuz he's super shallow and only beats you with triforce Qs
basketball > shovel
Meep Man1 votesGhouls deal a ton of damage early game if they get more than one attack off especially. The good old W, E, R, Q combo usually leaves someone dead or low enough to where you can easily take their tower with Yorick's good pushing potential.
Big Lincoln1 votesi know he does a lot of damage, its just never felt like I could appreciate it in the same way I do with Darius
idk I was very hype for yorick as a juggernaut, I expected more is all
Meep Man1 votesAs far as epic moments go, it's hard to outdo the dunk. Yorick isn't flashy, super aggressive, or epic. He is a slow brick wall that slowly suffocates you into your team's base, as if the Black Mist itself is slowly overtaking the Rift.
Ralanr1 votesWell Darius doesn't require farm to start hurting people, so I guess that might be why.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXkcshHV,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-01-13T15:26:45.751+0000)
i have never felt threatened by him, especially not in lane
maybe its cuz he's super shallow and only beats you with triforce Qs
basketball > shovel
Yorick is the highest skillcap juggernaut. Much higher than Darius.
He is the only juggernaut and one of the few champions in the game who wins duels not by stat-checking the opponent, but by being able to properly land all of his abilities. You could be ahead of your laning opponent, but if you whiff your E with your ghouls out they will probably kick your ass. If you don't have any ghouls, why are you trying to force an all-in?
You haven't felt threatened by him because you've probably never faced a good one.
Kukan Seishin1 votes[deleted]
Sahn Uzal3 votesDiver ..Whatever Gnar is. Diver. Skirmisher. Skirmisher. Diver. Juggernaut Diver Skirmisher.
You listed one Juggernaut.
Ralanr1 votesGnar is a hybrid of vanguard and marksman.
He's the antichrist.
Sahn Uzal2 votest_ https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/28087/1.0
BE GONE FOUL DEMON!
PermabannedGaren1 votesGnar is a hybrid of vanguard and marksman.
He's the antichrist.
This is true. He probably has the most cancer design in the game.
I don't mind ranged bullies like Quinn, Teemo, or even to an extent Jayce (who is incredibly overtuned right now). These champions sacrifice something team-comp wise for their picks, are squishy as the game goes on (barring the occasional tankmo or on-hitmo), and frankly don't have a great deal of team fight presence.
Gnar sacrifices nothing but reliability for his ability to be a ranged bully in lane. He's a ranged bully who scales into a hypertank. What the fuck is the sense in that?
Ralanr1 votesUnreliability I guess. Though unreliability scales with player skill imo.
ChaddyFantome1 votesWhat about 
?
Big Lincoln1 voteshe's pretty viable right now because jungle meta is to camp bot
but honestly the more I think about Nasus the more I think he's not good for the game in current form
Ralanr1 votesHow so?
Big Lincoln2 voteshe's just a giant ball of stats and doesn't really capture the late game fantasy he's meant to
E is either an AP nuke with no counterplay or instant armor shred (still no counterplay)
wither is too strong a spell and basically has no CD - when he's top tier there's not really anything you can do because it has no down time
there's not really a lot of gameplay beyond pressing Q and winning if you're stacked enough and don't get kites to death. I think he has a strong foundation and could justify a warwick tier change
Ralanr2 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXkcshHV,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-13T15:38:37.352+0000)
he's just a giant ball of stats and doesn't really capture the late game fantasy he's meant to
E is either an AP nuke with no counterplay or instant armor shred (still no counterplay)
wither is too strong a spell and basically has no CD - when he's top tier there's not really anything you can do because it has no down time
there's not really a lot of gameplay beyond pressing Q and winning if you're stacked enough and don't get kites to death. I think he has a strong foundation and could justify a warwick tier change
Agreed. Kinda sad that he's the basic archetype of a juggernaut since (imo) being a giant ball of stats and nothing else is unhealthy.
Looking at you, Tryndamere.
Brascus1 votesI don't know if he's the only good one, but he's very well designed in his current incarnation with very clear strengths, weaknesses, windows of opportunity and counterplay.
Binary champs like Garen just can't really compare.
Mordepool1 votesROFL morde didn't even make your list. Not sure wether to be sad or angry.
Sadgry. I feel Sadgry
Big Lincoln1 votesmord is a mage
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXkcshHV,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2017-01-13T21:34:31.517+0000)
mord is a mage
Nah, playing Mordekaiser like a mage is silly. He simply scales too well with health and resistances due to his shield.
A Mordekaiser who builds like a juggernaut is almost indestructible. Legitimately tankier than Dr. Mundo, while still dealing enough damage to kill ADCs. Don't get me wrong, he's by no means a strong champion due to how fundamentally limited he is, but AP Mordekaiser tends to just get focused down and die when he ults the ADC. Juggernaut Mordekaiser isn't so easily bursted.
Mordepool1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yXkcshHV,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2017-01-13T21:34:31.517+0000)
mord is a mage
Sadly no Mordekaiser is a JUGGERNAUT. Has been since he was Reworked in the Juggernaut class update