Why is Swain getting nerfed

Big Lincoln·Nov 23, 2015·157 votes·8,877 views

and why is he getting nerfed harder than Brand?

Swain Nevermore (W) root duration reduced to 1/1.3/1.5/1.8/2 seconds from 2 at all ranks

Swain isn't even an issue right now, what the fuck?

229 Comments

Malicious MetalNov 23, 201556 votes

What baffles me more is that Mundo doesn't get nerfed but Swain does.

Wat?

junglerboy16Nov 23, 201540 votes

I'd bet they just haven't decided what to nerf yet, because Mundo isn't a cut and dry "NERF THIS ABILITY" type of OP. They'll have to figure out what part of him is OP first.

Is his E's AA buff too strong? Does maxing his E make him to strong too quickly? Does maxing E make him clear jungle too fast? Is he OP because nobody is building Mortal reminder? Does mortal reminder need a buff instead? Is he hitting his late game power too early? Is his damage good but his durability is over top? Did the Spirit visage buff over do it for him? Is he simply taking advantage of too many teams stacking all AD comps?

Then they'll nerf him. They may also be waiting a patch or two to see how things shake out with other balance changes.

The swain nerfs don't make sense though, unless they plan on buffing something else instead...

Slamurai JackNov 23, 20157 votes

Why the hell would you max E on Mundo?

RikariNov 23, 201516 votes

cuz it gives you 100 AD without the missing health buff and an enhanced AA for 5 seconds for a 7 second cooldown? that good enough?

Slamurai JackNov 23, 20156 votes

It's always done that though, and yet people weren't maxing E before. Why should I max it now?

RikariNov 23, 20152 votes

It never gave him 100 AD aside from the missing hp bonus.

Slamurai JackNov 23, 201511 votes

Yes it did. His E is exactly the same as it was before except with the extra 5%hp damage on the first hit.

LazlowNov 23, 201527 votes

I rarely post on here, but this Swain change really irked me.

So its not enough that Riot ignores and basically forgets Swain exists for years.. It's not enough he can't get a visual update or anything meaningful.. It's not enough that champs like Gnar who JUST got a skin, gets another one, and Swain who hasn't had one going on 4 fucking years doesn't.. What happened to DragonMaster by the way..?

They just had to give the middle finger further now by nerfing him. He has sat at a 52-53% for a while and is rarely picked? Now all of a sudden he is a problem? But hey guys, lets buff Riven the champion that has terrorized solo queue the past 2 seasons.. With all these idiotic pre-season changes now this balance update just makes me not want to play this game further. I really hope there is a mistake or at least some compensation..

ModAcademy KaynNov 24, 20151 votes

Skin comment aside, because thats the skin teams job, the reason they've "forgotten" Swain was because he was in a perfectly fine state before. They didn't see any reason to buff/nerf him. But now, Swain synergizes well with the new masteries.

Thunderlord Decree works fine, due to the majority of his click and point damage. Stormraiders Surge give Swain more sticking power without the of slows. Meditation (or w/e the mana regen mastery is) helps Swain sustain through lanes, while also having available the option for small amount of spellvamp and lifesteal.

Plus SV got buffed with its MR making it an even better choice agaisnt vs mage lanes.

3TWarriorNov 24, 20152 votes

actually, none of those masteries have anything to do with swain's decided nerfs

Deathfire Touch mastery applies X + 20% of ap as a 3 second DoT and half in half the time for AOE and DoT spells

i'm not sure of the actual mis-coding involved, but it seems as though the effect is procced upon every damage a character causes by ability to the opposing character

I doubt the mastery actually stacks upon itself, but it is a very large increase on the damage procs caused by damage over time champs

wake me when riot uses a less complicated stacking formula cuz if it refreshes upon damage, it comes to like 10 procs of 2/3X + 6.66% ap

press it all together and it comes to 6.66 X + 66.66 % ap ratio

that is a very dramatic increase in damage for swain....yet a justified one for his lack of countermeasures against lane swaps and every mage/tank in the game combined with his mediocre waveclear)

but to make it simple, let's say swain has 40 ap at level 6(not generous, not weak), he then does a bonus of 46 damage rounded down, if you factor swain's potential increase of up to 14%(for 3 E at 6), it comes to a grand total of 53 damage

if you take this to the extreme at full build where you will easily have 400 ap, that is 530 extra damage just from a mastery others will likely only gain 100 from, if that, and that's not factoring in other variables like how riot stacks the incoming damage

TobstersNov 23, 201521 votes

Seriously??? I was thinking they would buff him because of the removal of mana pots and having GW on every AA.

At least they should fix this shitty attack animation.

BakedLotionNov 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Seriously??? I have been waiting a long time for a swain rework to make him actually viable? AND THEY NERF HIM??

At least they should fix this shitty attack animation.

whats wrong with his attack animation?? It's one of the smoothest ones in the game wtf... It comes out as soon as you click

AnidanNov 23, 20159 votes

It's not quite Karthus levels of bad, but it's pretty up there in terms of bad AA wind-ups. He and Karthus have normal dota wind-ups while everyone else is running around with Anti-Mage and Juggernaut wind-ups (for reference: those two have some of the lowest base attack speeds in the game, so they AA faster than most other heroes, making it feel very responsive for last-hitting).

BakedLotionNov 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not quite Karthus levels of bad, but it's pretty up there in terms of bad AA wind-ups. He and Karthus have normal dota wind-ups while everyone else is running around with Anti-Mage and Juggernaut wind-ups (for reference: those two have some of the lowest base attack speeds in the game, so they AA faster than most other heroes, making it feel very responsive for last-hitting).

I don't get it. I just went into a custom game and his auto attack is approx the level of leblanc responsiveness. I literally ran around stutterstepping with no problem at all.

You people probably haven't played him for years so you just remember it from a few years back... I'd take this auto animation over anything I play for sure.

AnidanNov 23, 20155 votes

I played as him against a Katarina not too long ago when I was playing with a friend. His AA still feels sluggish compared many other champions.

Yuumi or LoseNov 23, 201514 votes

I'm surprised Swain is getting nerfed. He's easy to play against.

VreivaiNov 23, 201510 votes

All these changes look like they're nerfing the symptom rather thant the problem. Broken items/masteries made certain champions OP, so now they're nerfing the champions rather than the items/masteries. And then when those items get nerfed (and they will, I don't think anyone is expecting Guinsoo's to remain as strong as it is now, for example), those champions that got nerfed will be significantly weaker than intended and receive no compensation.

And then there's Rammus, who's only OP right now because everyone and their mother are playing AA based champions.

Arch Mage MagnusNov 23, 20159 votes

Came in to post this after seeing the changes. As a Swain main for quite awhile I can say a few things about the champ.

First of all, he can be countered by other mages, or a good Assassin player that knows when to all in. Lux, Syndra, Annie, Brand, Veigar,basically any mage that has serious burst potential can beat Swain in lane. Swain basically NEEDS to land Nevermore or he won't get a kill, as opposed to all of the champs I mentioned above that have a MUCH easier time landing a snare. If you know how to lane against Swain, you know to dodge the snare, and you also know it has a ridiculous long CD (18 seconds at level 1) and it is his last ability to get leveled up. So basically he has it at level 1 for the majority of the game, he can't afford to level it and miss out on his DoT.

Swain needs to snowball in order to be effective late game. All of Swains damage is DoT, which is useless late game when other champs are dealing out 1500 damage a second on crits and spells if Swain is not already snowballed. No sense being about to do 1500 damage, over 6 seconds....most team fights don't even last that long. Only thing Swain has going for him is his sustain, but again if he's not crazy snowballed, new ADC's and masteries (looking at executioners) can just tear him apart.

I rarely, if ever see Swain being played, so I have no idea what Riot is thinking with this nerf. If anything I thought Swain would get some buffs because of the lack of mana potions; also for the fact he has a hard time CSing considering he has one of the lowest base damages in the game. You basically have to take AD runes to help with his CSing if you are not the best at doing so. Nerfing Swain because Riot fucked up and came out with some OP masteries like Deathfire is classic Riot though; they just always know what's best.

I'll be playing him in the PBE for the next few days and post in PBE, but again....I know Riot won't listen.

AbyssphereNov 23, 20158 votes

Swain is very similar to Brand in terms of how strong he is. You just don't see him because he's boring/ugly as fuck.

Big LincolnNov 23, 201526 votes

He really isn't, because he doesn't get obnoxious to deal with late game and he isn't valuable without needing to snowball off his lane like Brand is

Especially when he's getting nerfed harder than Brand who is miles away more powerful right now

ModKnightsKemplarNov 23, 20156 votes

Hmm... As a Swain main (I've played a lot of him this patch), I gotta say you're wrong. I won't speak about Brand, as I saw very few of them (somehow), but Swain is too strong right now. I think putting some root scaling on w makes sense, and if it's too much, hopefully they will dial it back a little.

EDIT: What I mean to say is, his late game is monster. I have no idea what Swain's you are playing with, but I do not need to snowball to do well.

Big LincolnNov 23, 20156 votes

his late game is good but overrated.

he's a short range mage with no mobility and his success banking on not getting focused before he can drain tank and landing his snare to get in that range

he's arguably benefit from games being more snowbally, but I don't think he's objectively better -- return of executioner's and ignite being so much more common, along with the AP changes being worse for him since he's pretty low on average farm for most mages

YumaS2AstralNov 24, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hextech Gunbard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bRYMfpsE,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-23T22:24:24.408+0000)

his late game is good but overrated.

he's a short range mage with no mobility and his success banking on not getting focused before he can drain tank and landing his snare to get in that range

he's arguably benefit from games being more snowbally, but I don't think he's objectively better -- return of executioner's and ignite being so much more common, along with the AP changes being worse for him since he's pretty low on average farm for most mages

Actually Swain is indeed a late game monster. At least now that Liandry has been buffed. Now he can actually be good late.

The problem is that his early game is atrocious. No waveclear, is mana hungry, difficult to last hit with him, requires extremely expensive items to work... His late game is godly, the problem is getting here.

SpoofghoulNov 23, 20157 votes

Dat Rito favoritism

Swain is almost viable can't have that hit him with the nerf bat asap

Meanwhile Lee and Vayne

Masala ChaiNov 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Dat Rito favoritism

Swain is almost viable can't have that hit him with the nerf bat asap

Meanwhile Lee and Vayne

As a Vayne main (plz don't judge) , I agree that Vayne must be nerfed because her winrate to people who have only played her once is way too high. She needs to have a weaker laning phase. Maybe increase Tumble's cooldown at lower levels, but keep the final 2 second cooldown when it's maxed, that way people can either choose to have almost no mobility, or less damage.

SpoofghoulNov 24, 20152 votes

Vayne is like Riven or Lee

Tons of mobility combined with cc and burst in 1 kit thats always problematic to balance. But Swain, no burst no mobility no waveclear low range. He does have strong cc but thats hard to land and they now nerfed that. He also has sustain going for him, albeit at heavy manacost and now there is grievous wounds.I think Swain was fairly balanced, His early did get stronger with dft but thats only if you enter his range, which you can avoid with most opponents . . .

SwapShadowsNov 23, 20156 votes

[deleted]

Malicious MetalNov 23, 201568 votes

Hmmm... Your name suggests you play zed... Swain counters zed...

I rest my case.

I Miss CannonNov 23, 201515 votes

Swain doesn't even counters Zed but okay. Zed will just shove the wave and wreck other lanes because Swain got zero waveclear.

DeynaTaggerungNov 23, 201510 votes

Indeed that's an option, but he sure isn't getting anything down on Swain, hence the counter nature. Countering doesn't mean that he has every advantage but just that his kit nullifies the all in assassin part of zed's kit.

YumaS2AstralNov 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Indeed that's an option, but he sure isn't getting anything down on Swain, hence the counter nature. Countering doesn't mean that he has every advantage but just that his kit nullifies the all in assassin part of zed's kit.

Swain is not a counter to Zed early, but is during the late. Unfortunately early game, Zed can outpush him, and Swain will have a hard time farming. And he can't afford to rush Zhonya, Rod of Ages is absolutely necessary for Swain to allow him to scale into the game.

However, if you manage to get into the late game, then Swain will shit hard into Zed.

That's the problem with Zed, so many champions have the potential to beat him, but they can't lane against him. I wouldn't recommend picking Swain into Zed. The two very few champions that can survive lane against Zed - and counter him - are Kayle and Vladimir.

Nunya BezwacksNov 24, 20154 votes

yeah....late game...the point which the game never gets to anymore...

A Miss FortuneNov 24, 20151 votes

Swain can kill waves really fast post-6? His W (the claw thingy) and his ult combined will usually clear waves in a few seconds at most.

DarkSunSovereignNov 24, 20154 votes

And waste 70% of his mana, yeah. Not to mention an important 18 sec cd and an even more important 10 sec one.

KeevalroyNov 23, 201592 votes

he is still one of the most anti-fun champions to lane against.

Says the Zed main...just throwing that out there.

bradNov 24, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Says the Zed main...just throwing that out there.

nice meme https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Voluug13Nov 24, 20154 votes

That is not ad hominem.

Dont use that term when it doesnt apply, please.

bradNov 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

That is not ad hominem.

Dont use that term when it doesnt apply, please.

ad hominem adjective 2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument. source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad-hominem

if thats not exactly what hes doing, then what is he doing?

Troll for TrumpNov 24, 20153 votes

Technically it could be a vague argument, as zed is countered by swain, so, the guy could be biased towards swain because of previous bad experiences, and, wants swain deleted.

JARmatesNov 23, 201563 votes

i think they should nerf Zed, he very anti-fun, wouldn't you agree?

RamboDash15Nov 24, 201532 votes

Yasuo "Anti-Fun?"

Troll for TrumpNov 24, 201516 votes

Fizz Fiora Blitzcrank Graves Irelia item 3124 Kayle Leblanc Tryndamere Jax Nah man, the game state is perfectly fine.

WyrmbladeNov 23, 20156 votes

It's part of their plan, they're going to nerf sustain champions, then buff executioner's calling.

This has been done many times before, it's a dark ritual riot uses to please the foul, unspeakable gods they serve with player's tears.

DarkRitualNov 24, 20156 votes

{quoted}

It's part of their plan, they're going to nerf sustain champions, then buff executioner's calling.

This has been done many times before, it's a dark ritual riot uses to please the foul, unspeakable gods they serve with player's tears.

Keep me out of this. Thx.

LordKentravyonNov 24, 20154 votes

I've been loyal to league, i've stuck around ages after most of my friends have left for HotS or other games. But this next PBE cycle is looking to be the last straw for me.

Riven buffs? Swain Nerfs?

Nothing addressing major abuse cases?

BladeSteelNov 24, 20154 votes

Oh no, the bonus hp regen on riven is going to completly make her op and take her out of the bottom 10 winrates that she's currently at...

Ulquiorra995Nov 24, 201512 votes

Let's buff the most universally hated and over picked champion in this game after one patch of having bad win rate. Those battle bunny/arcade skins aren't going to sell themselves.

Also we are intentionally keeping Sej and Sion in the gutter because they have had their time in the spotlight. Did we mention that we here at Riot are totally not biased?

Silents429Nov 24, 20152 votes

I don't see why anyone should give a shit about what the people that moan and groan over champions they hate think.

Ulquiorra995Nov 24, 20152 votes

People hate those champions because they are unfun as all hell to play against, and that is what Riot should give a shit about. They do actually - when said "toxic" (quoted because Riot's definition of that word is beyond biased) champion isn't flashy enough. If you are, say, Sona or Urgot player, tough luck. But if you happen to like Riven, Yasuo or the company then you have nothing to worry about. Your champs won't be getting any meaningful nerfs and will be looked upon immediately if they start to fall out of favor.