Twitch needs a worse early game imo.

YoungFarmer·Oct 6, 2017·87 votes·3,122 views

Vayne and twitch are both the top tier adcs for late game winrates, difference between them is: : 45.93 % winrate at 0-25 minutes meaning she does not have much impact early game. her late game 40+ minutes is 55.45% has a 50.27% winrate at 0-25 min, that little rat is still useful even at his worst point in the game. at 40+ min he has the highest adc winrate in the game with a 57.8% winrate. Twitch needs nerfs or changes he simply isn't a fair champion right now.

I assume the reason hes op is mostly due to his ultimate but I could be wrong.

47 Comments

hhaavviikkOct 6, 201727 votes

all ADC's need a worse early game, strong early game ADC's shouldn't exist because they're also inherently strong late game because of the items they can buy

lojicianOct 6, 20174 votes

"Hey guys should we do anything about the fact that mobile marksmen get incredibly safe, strong sustain in lane while doing comparable burst to everyone else and having as much disengage as other champions have engage? It seems like this makes the only possible way to beat a marksmen in lane to all in and kill them before you automatically lose the war of attrition."

"No but that reminds me we need to delay burst so that marksmen players have plenty of time to disengage when they are engaged on."

WrÆthOct 7, 20172 votes

Lucian

XeroKimoOct 7, 20175 votes

I think strong early adcs should exist, only if they can fall off later in the game...... though considering how the direction of the game feels like, it doesn't really feel like there's any champion that really falls off, though that might be due to games being shorter..... but at the same time, there doesn't really seem to be any lane bully like champions anymore, they all feel around the same levels of strength, the only reason why a champion can lane bully another is based off ones inherent weakness

Edit: In bot lane, the early days, it used to be the one with larger inherent range would be able to bully all those with average. Later on it kinda switched to caster adcs being pretty good lane bullies, due to their higher dps early cause they can weave spells that deal pretty good damage between autos. Today, almost nothing like that exists, while it might sound nice, it kinda leads to hyper carry adcs being able to have a decent laning phase

Edit edit: Caitlyn was probably the last thing to be a lane bully, though she also had a good late, until she was nerfed to oblivion, she got buffed recently sure, but I still don't feel really threatened by her in early

FairyfleurOct 7, 20177 votes

Draven His damage doesn't fall off, but the way he applies it does.

SalronOct 7, 20173 votes

That's ridiculous You need strong early game ADCs to keep other ADCs that autowin lategame in check

EedatOct 6, 201711 votes

He is weak early. The problem is that all the ADCs that were strong early/mid got nerfed heavily Lucian Draven Caitlyn Xayah . Even strong early supports that could punish him were nerfed Karma Zyra Lulu Malzahar .

It really not so much Twitch being strong early. He's still pretty weak. However, he's RELATIVELY stronger early because a ton of the champs that can punish a Twitch in lane were nerfed

Rins Thigh SocksOct 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}

He is weak early. The problem is that all the ADCs that were strong early/mid got nerfed heavily . Even strong early supports that could punish him were nerfed .

It really not so much Twitch being strong early. He's still pretty weak. However, he's RELATIVELY stronger early because a ton of the champs that can punish a Twitch in lane were nerfed

That's bullshit and you know it. The meta introduced so many good items for turtling to mid/late game and it made early game irrelevant.

NymzoOct 6, 201710 votes

Tbh, he ''has'' a weak early game but there's no catchers to abuse that weakness in this meta.

MarvelOtterOct 6, 20175 votes

yeah... twitch's ult is disgusting...one of the big things with his early game is that his cs is crazy between his autos, a runnaans and his e. this makes his late game even more disgusting. the big problem is that healer supports make him nearly untouchable as he out cs' basically anyone but sivir(whos really not a huge threat)

VallalanOct 7, 20175 votes

twitch lane phase is as bad as its always been.

there just aren't any lane bullies and surviving lane is way too easy with relic/dorans shield +warlords. you basically bitch out the lane, give up some early cs if you must and survive to where you simply out scale.

this was not possible in previous metas like the ghostblade lucian or Jhin type metas or even a meta where Caitlyn was strong.

there just aren't any adcs who can lane bully that are worth picking.

Draven is super strong early but if you fail to snowball (aka get camped) you are pretty much weaker than any other adc in the game. Miss Fortune is SUPER bad in this meta vs tanks since her sustained damage is total shit. Lucian has been gutted for bot lane to where if you don't snowball the game to shit you are gonna get outscaled and FAST. if you go crit on lucian(so you still scale) you just aren't strong enough early to bully hard enough. lucian has been gutted for bot lane.

It doesn't help that cc supports just aren't very good right now compared to ardent supps since cc supports can't proc ardent. once ardent is nerfed you can safely pick a champ like thresh/blitz to counter these passive supports without fearing that if you fail to kill them you will be massively outscaled.

Jhin, Lucian, MF, Draven, and Caitlyn are pretty much the premier lane bullies for the majority of the player base (throw in Kalista at very high elo) but you don't see them nearly as much as you see Kog, Twitch, Xayah, Trist right now. and thats because the scaling hyper carries have no problem surviving lane right now. It doesn't feel risky to pick any of those but maybe twitch. but even twitch can just give up the cs knowing his support can baby sit him later with ardent.

I really can't wait for the new runes. some of these runes are super aggressive early and lane bullies have options once the rune system comes out. Some of them synergize really well with bullies and even though lethal tempo is definitely busted, it's not going to be as good in lane as press the attack. Hopefully lane bullies do their job then.

But either way, Twitch needs to be looked at for a mini rework since his kit is SUPER unhealthy.

Hèntaî Oct 8, 20171 votes

It doesn't help that cc supports just aren't very good right now compared to ardent supps since cc supports can't proc ardent.

Leona with stoneborn and item 3504 is nasty

sketchy1Oct 6, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Vayne and twitch are both the top tier adcs for late game winrates, difference between them is: : 45.93 % winrate at 0-25 minutes meaning she does not have much impact early game. her late game 40+ minutes is 55.45% has a 50.27% winrate at 0-25 min, that little rat is still useful even at his worst point in the game. at 40+ min he has the highest adc winrate in the game with a 57.8% winrate. Twitch needs nerfs or changes he simply isn't a fair champion right now.

I assume the reason hes op is mostly due to his ultimate but I could be wrong.

imo, I don't feel its just his ult, (I agree its strong asf, theres no disputing that) but I feel like its the fact that he can stealth whenever the hell he feels, popping out of absolutely nowhere, and you wont see him while hes stealthed unless your in point-blank range (which as an adc, youll almost never be in)

ArakadiaOct 6, 20174 votes

Plus one for actually suggesting something rather then copy pasting the circle jerk.

Kirius DarkOct 6, 20173 votes

IMO get rid of the extra range or the pierce. Both combined out of stealth is just stupid

YoungFarmerOct 6, 201711 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yQahEGsZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-06T19:42:41.167+0000)

IMO get rid of the extra range or the pierce. Both combined out of stealth is just stupid

I might even be balanced if they just removed hurricane. Hurricane seems to always in problematic champion builds.

Kirius DarkOct 6, 20175 votes

Does his ult cause the hurricane side bolts to pierce and have longer range too? Extremely OP if it does

Kamara33Oct 6, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yQahEGsZ,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-10-06T19:49:13.218+0000)

Does his ult cause the hurricane side bolts to pierce and have longer range too? Extremely OP if it does

Yes.

JJI744Oct 7, 20171 votes

You have no idea just how busted Hurricane+Twitch ult can be.

https://youtu.be/009hEBbb3MM?t=695

Watch closely, you can see Annie get hit by hurricane while twitch is targetting Sivir.Sivir is easily 700 units away (probably more) and is slightly behind twitch. He actually does over 600 damage to someone he is not even remotely aiming towards.

Also, Twitch deals more damage to secondary targets than his primary target if they are in a line. The secondary target eats both the ult-piercing shot, and a hurricane bolt.

RainbowIceeOct 7, 20173 votes

I think he needs a bigger detection circle, a bit bigger than his range to warn enemies. It'd be only fair considering how screwed Rengar's cloak is even though that's his actual ult and brings less benefits than twitches stealth.

Also can we please stop using win rates as arguments? It's been stated even by riot employees the websites you guys use aren't accurate, and they don't seem to want to give official data because you guys cling too hard on winrates.

ThefrostyvikingOct 7, 20173 votes

Twitch´s early is actually as weak as it ever was, issue is that all the lane bullies, harassers and dive hard champs like leo are long gone.

So he kinda sits being perfectly safe most of the time thanks to the resident janna,lulu or sona and is thus able to "skip over" his weak early.

Tychusfindlay918Oct 7, 20172 votes

Reduce base AD by 2 and reduce base damage of contaminate by 5.

That should put a decent dent into his early game trading power.

Shuriman CuratorOct 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Reduce base AD by 2 and reduce base damage of contaminate by 5.

That should put a decent dent into his early game trading power.

A very typical riot change +1

aspects1Oct 7, 20172 votes

another upvote farmer lel

LEEROY KLEDKINSOct 7, 20172 votes

As a support main and top laner I never have a problem being against Twitch.

I always expect him to show out of now where and ult then I just cc him out of the fight or chase him or get him to chase me, in some matches if im top playing fizz or nasus or got fed with riven I can just kill him in 1 second.

I always pick Alistar, Nautilus, Blitzcrank, Braum, Thresh, Nasus, Riven, Teemo, Fizz, Wukong, Gnar or a easy stun burst champion like annie or syndra.

Twitch is a joke when im against him.

Also i carry item 3364 with me so I can position in a bush that is in the middle or behind the enemy team and surprise them also i've caught twitch's nearby using this because Oracle Lens gives out more stealth vision than a champion's camo detection radius.

You just need to be prepared to deal with him in team fights, save that flash for over a dragon wall or jungle wall or to get over the enemy front line to get twitch.

Also always ban soraka the most, Janna and Lulu are a problem but soraka has given me the most problem because of her E and the Q W R combo is insane on her and it can be hard to stop her and avoid her moves.

Lulu's moves are targeted and alot of lulu's miss click a fast target.

Janna obviously can just Q and R your ass away then W kite you but I've seen janna's miss their Q its easier to avoid especially if she is using Forecast Janna or Star Guardian Janna which are pay to lose skins because of the effects and I've seen some janna's panic R to save their twitch or any other ally and they tend to cc you in the direciton you wanted to go because they want to take the gamble of healing their team mates more than getting you off their team mates if your a diving champion.

I know alot of people will find this hard to believe but please be aware of twitch's Q and R, someone who is fast, hard engage or can set up an ambush are good picks to taking him down.

I don't play alot of adc but I've seen alot of tristanas dealing with twitch with zero problems at all.

Twitch imo is only good if his team is good and i mean really good at positioning and protecting him. In most fights it's you and your team's fault for not having the right champion to push him out of the fight or hard engage on him.

Also for you support bros and sisters if you have allies who dash in like nocturne, diana, lee sin, riven, fizz, malphite, please keep in mind of the other enemy players, like prevent them from getting to their twitch this is why when I play support I mostly play alistar the most because he is so insanely tanky, he heals per enemy kill/assist, he actually has good burst for a tank support, he can cleanse out of any cc so veigar wall is nothing or cc out of stun from blitz/thresh hooks (but you still get pulled but you can still attack em), He can push any one out of a team fight making them unable to get to anyone, Also when you get eye of the equinox item 2303 locket item 3190 Ninja tabi item 3047 You can just buy a Ardent Censer on alistar which is absolute BS to the enemy team. In a bunch of my ranked games even ones we got wrecked in lane I came back with ardent censer and the enemy team wasn't aware that everytime someone got killed my team got healed and got the ardent buff so its a scumbag trick you can use on alistar right now.

Alot of people I see who play or think of Alistar never think of maxing the W first when you should because it has good knock back range, his W got buffed for the WQ combo is easier to perform even if you suck, it's also got a shorter cooldown than his Q.

I've recently started playing ranked flex where you get alot of good players and done soloQ ranked where there are worser players.

Flex is harder because everyone knows what to do most of the time while as in soloQ most people get easily angry and will just have no idea how to solve a situation.

Again I know this is going to be hard to believe and people will downvote this because they think Twitch is god tier and not many people think of ways to get around it but trust me this works also you need to keep in mind that alot of people aren't really good at keeping their cool so if they see a champion having a high win rate and they panic over a champion who just auto attacks then it shows that people are too lazy to think and act on a stragety to stop em and this is a team game and alot of people do hate others in a competitive game.

Also please tell your team in the game lobby to beware of twitch's engage and be prepared to deal with it.

Too me in league I don't find most champions to be broken except Veigar because if you get cc'd by anyone or himself and you have no clease or unable to get to him to shut him down then you will easily die it doesn't matter if you have 10million warmogs stuffed in your tanky ass you're good as dead.

Everyone else it does come down to that player's skill even high elo players do bad in some games, there are alot of normal and bad lee sin players but there are a small percent of really really good lee sin players (im talking about him as an example) who can predict your jungle position, they can predict player positions before they even show up in vision. that may sound wierd to you but there is a difference between a champion being broken and just you being unable to stop them.

Just git gud and adapt, heck i bitched about veigar so maybe i should git gud against him XD.

Okay now time to raise my anti flame shield to protect myself from the harsh comments and downvotes im going to receive now.

[sg-soraka] Be nice to me pls <3

Yordle XayahOct 7, 20172 votes

item 3504 Janna

CherilynOct 8, 20172 votes

I think the main reason Twitch is really strong is because of his Q and his ability to shred literally an entire team with R. Even in pro play where communication exists, teams still get aced from this sewer rat opening up with R from Q stealth shredding every single person. Even if he is weak early, his engage from Q stealth and burst from R can be pretty strong even in the early game and can help him win skirmishes by surprising his enemies and get fed. If pro teams with communication get wiped by Twitch , solo-q teams have no real chance against him. He has no real escapes and is ofc extremely squishy, but his Q + R + item 3085 AoE shred is just absurd.

PoskeOct 8, 20172 votes

I am actually impressed by this comment section

Full of ADC mains defending twitch and indirectly asking for other ADC buffs Muh there Are no bullies Muh WTf twitch still weak early

Juicy ÐogeOct 24, 20172 votes

Twitch jungle is the real problem. Lv 2 ganks that basically always suceed and just snowballing the entire game with 2 kills. You should be able to detect him before he starts attacking you. To be honest he is basically stronger thatn almost all assassins in the game and on top of that he has the longest auto attack range with his ult. He is just completely broken but, hey when did Riot really care?

XxxLumberJackxxXOct 6, 20171 votes

No he needs to lose some free stats

YuGiHoOct 6, 20171 votes

I was pretty sure it was because he has the best early game roams and ganks out of any adc. Vayne wont just appear out of nowhere right next to you mid lane lv 4 and if sh dose use her lult to gank now she has no ult to use bot lane also i feel like 6 Vayne autos and 2 instances of silver bolts wont do as much dmg as 5 twitch autos and then his e

JackMcSnipeyzOct 7, 20171 votes

how about take off 25 range from his auto attack range? That way you nerf both his early game, his lane presance, and his ult, this might help push him a bit back early and somewhat nerf his ult in the same time

Bunny OrangeOct 7, 20171 votes

I feel like part of it is because of Riot doing so much to shorten games. Twitch still has bad early, but when you can hit full items around 35 mins, then early game isn't very long, and isn't very punishable anymore.

xJLx MCHammerOct 7, 20171 votes

Or they can rework him to remove his stealth.

If they want to keep it, they should make it more detectable. Having him ult and AA you from such a distance is a bit absurd. Worse that he can do it while in stealth.

Maybe remove the interaction? If he is in stealth, he can't active his ultimate?

Azazel AerternumOct 7, 20171 votes

He would be removed from the meta if they were to ruin ardent censer, which would allow for harass-heavy supports to exist.

Like Brand, you pick Twitch or Vayne into Brand and you're going to ragequit.

KaeblenOct 7, 20171 votes

I think it would be better if his late game were weaker, and he relied on snowballing rather than just 'getting to late game'.

it would be nice if a few adc had a different power curve than the others. Twitch is a logical choice for this, because stealth lets him make plays and get kills early. Draven would also be a good choice for a snowball dependent adc.

Pop000100Oct 7, 20171 votes

As a twitch main, i support this as long as it doesn't touch his late game.

Oakleaf RangerOct 7, 20171 votes

Its not that he has a strong early game but because lane bullies are weak right by comparison and item 1054 still being a better option than item 1055 for ADC's. I don't know how much the preseason will shake up bot lane but nothing much changes then needs to be nerfed for ranged champions while still remaining the same on melee champions. only has small room for being nerfed in general (which I don't want if it effects melee champions) that if it wouldn't take too much for it to be a inferior starting item compared to item 2033

Mecha IncognitoOct 7, 20171 votes

They should just make his Q not give attack speed, or make his ult not crit/apply on hits past the first target.

FeathermaneOct 7, 20171 votes

Stealth is an impossible mechanic to balance. What else is new?

RaiyzaOct 7, 20171 votes

Just bring down his ultimate range from a bonus 300 to a bonus 200. That way he still outraged most everyone, but he can be dealt with easier.

VeltoxOct 7, 20171 votes

I think removing the stacks he gets from W will do.

robot takeoverOct 8, 20171 votes

his early game is trash, the only reason he does so well is because of supports and constant jungler intervention bot. Almost all matchups win the 2v2 against twitch.