Is it time to break "Marksmen" into subclasses?

Eedat·Jul 27, 2017·81 votes·3,078 views

Looking through the list of Marksmen, I can't help but notice how drastically different a lot of the playstyles are. It doesn't seem quite right to lump then as one class anymore

You have more traditional AA based hypercarries like

Then you have shorter range ADCs that play more like skirmishers like

You have more caster-type like

You have utility ADCs like

And some oddballs that have more unique playstyles like

I mean there's even a Marksman that has a in his core build

It seems like this class has become a little too disjointed. There are too many very, VERY different playstyles to be lumped together into a single class. I don't think "ranged champion that builds AD" is a strong enough binder to make this class make sense anymore.

Thoughts?

82 Comments

SkorchJul 27, 201733 votes

PREEEEEETTY sure Varus, Ez and Jhin are classified as caster marksmen.

AzteryzJul 28, 20175 votes

people hate grouping Graves with marksmen

which he should be grouped!

CaveslothJul 28, 20173 votes

He forgot Kindred too, so I think its because they both jg.

DeadUnbornJul 28, 20172 votes

and teemo and urgot (which is a juggernaut marksmen now)

Dr PoroJul 28, 20174 votes

Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven Draven

ThefrostyvikingJul 28, 20171 votes

Varus actually drops in several different categories.

Depending on what he chooses to build.

And Jhin is apparently indeed counted as a oddball because of his R and W along with his passive. He uses abilites a lot but he also uses his autos to good effect.

Ez is also a weirdo because of his tendency to build triforce and spam Q all over while still auto attacking everything.

Ahri Body PillowJul 27, 201722 votes

how is ezreal not caster

sutora3Jul 27, 201717 votes

marksmen dont deserve anything other than being one-shotted and yes I am a veigar main

ExecutionerJul 27, 20176 votes

You're a horrible person.

Morgan le FeyJul 28, 20171 votes

Morgana : AWAY WITH YOU, FOUL BEAST!

Sexy Jack RabbitJul 28, 20177 votes

I'd just say Caster and Carry Marksmen. There's only like 16 pure marksman (unlike Mages or fighters who make up most of the games roster), so I don't see the point in 1724124 classes for them.

Caster: Ezreal Jhin Kindred Lucian MissFortune Xayah Varus Graves Quinn

Carry: Ashe Caitlyn Draven Jinx Sivir Vayne Tristana Twitch Graves

I think I'll briefly explain my theory on it. An ADC should be determined by how their kit functions to their most extreme point. I.e By Full build are they still using their abilities to be relevant, or have they forgone them for buffering their AA's?

I'll give an explanation on a few fringe cases people might be so-so about. Lucian Definite caster. Whilst his abilities Augment his AA's, by late-game he is still dependent on his abilities (Mainly his ultimate) to be relevant. Also take in mind he will ideally want to build very similar to MissFortune Jhin Varus given the opportunity. Vayne Definite Carry. Whilst her abilities are used often, they are all (cept her E) only used to augment her AA's. Ideally Vayne would wish to forgo ability usage to continue AA-ing in a fight. Not too mention she's the poster child hypercarry since the marksman update. Varus Saw some people argue he's more of a Carry then a caster. But the fact is he is irrelevant without his Q and R. He can never forgo his abilities. Kindred Old Kindred iteration would of been a Carry Marksmen. Late-game everything except your Q was time wasted. But current kindred is irrelevant late-game/full build without their Q, W and E. Graves Biggest fringe case. But when you get down to it ideally late-game Graves is going to want to be up in his enemies face AA-ing instead of slinging Q's across the teamfight like Varus or MF. Easy to argue that he is a caster who scales into a carry. Xayah Don't really feel she's a fringe case, I just think I should clear it up in case. Xayah is dependent on her Feathers and E late-game to be what she is. Xayah couldn't function via just AA-ing like Caitlyn or Jinx . Hence Caster.

Big LincolnJul 27, 20176 votes

it's time to break marksmen

KloqdqJul 27, 20176 votes

Can't break what is already broken.

XeroKimoJul 27, 20171 votes

But what is broken can be reforged

Hello I am BirdJul 28, 20171 votes

WHEN IS RIVEN GETTING REFORGED BECAUSE THAT ULT LOOKS EVEN MORE BROKEN TO ME

HonestJohnTheConJul 27, 20176 votes

I can agree with these changes, and I think Riot should split up the group. However, you forgot Kindred, Xayah, Twitch, and Caitlyn.

EedatJul 27, 20175 votes

I wasn't listing every ADC. Just giving some examples

Dr PoroJul 28, 20171 votes

Weird way to spell Draven

DoozkuJul 28, 20174 votes

I don't understand why every marksmen has to be a late game god. We can have late game hyper-carries but let there be ADC's that actually fall off. Even ADC's like Lucian or Draven still have god-like late games if they get fed while also have strong lane-phases.

Chaos Milk TeaJul 27, 20173 votes

God yes, break this class up. At the very least we should have three subclasses:

1-Traditional DPS machine guns. They build crit and attack speed and melt everything. Their raw damage and range is (supposed to be) balanced by a lack of mobility.

2-Mobile duelists. They tend to have many moments of high power and repositioning tools to help them during moments of weakness, making them great duelists.

3-Casters. They rely mostly on their abilities and are gated by cooldowns. These are the ones that tend to build either triforce or lethality.

Meanwhile Riot thinks battlemage is a class. Thats like calling xinzhao a bruiser marksman and putting him in the same class as Riven.

DanjengJul 27, 201710 votes

Battlemages are a class. They play very differently from the other mage subclasses.

Take for example, Swain and Vladimir who soak up damage while diving headfirst into the enemy team, and compare them to a poke mage like Lux.

CØulrophobiaJul 27, 20173 votes

As a former Vlad main I would be inclined to comment, however IDGAF about your comment enough to even start writing anything close to meaningfull. Battlemages are a class as much as the items they have.

It Hertz When IPJul 28, 20177 votes

tl;dr: "I care just enough to reply, but not enough to say anything intelligent."

Chaos Milk TeaJul 29, 20171 votes

Battle mages arent mages, but they arent a class the way Riot currently categorizes them. Champions like kassadin and swain cant be lumped together because they are both close range and do magic damage. Its lazy and doesnt help players underatand what champions do.

Swain amd Vladimir though, like you mentioned, are somewhat similar and could be classified as AP juggernauts.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 27, 20173 votes

Vayne not an AA hyper carry?

EedatJul 28, 20171 votes

She does have good DPS, but the manner in which she uses it is different and hence plays differently. Vayne has low range but more mobility which leads her to play more like a skirmishers who circles around in the thick of things as opposed to say Kog who kites back out of danger

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 28, 20171 votes

in the end it dont matter ... they are all marksmen they all need autos to do majority of their damage outside a few

DurzakaJul 28, 20173 votes

my real question is, what is the benefit to breaking them into more classes?

They still will all be fit into the ADC role bot lane. And they still will all have the role of scaling damage dealer.

Its not like Assassins vs. Divers. Or Juggernauts vs. Vanguard. Where there are clear defined differences to their team contributions.

TequilaZombieJul 28, 20172 votes

It would be the starting point to better balance ADCs based on their intended strenghts and weaknesses, instead of blanket covering all ADCs as long range auto attackers with top notch DPS.

There is a VERY clear difference to the team contribution of a Kog'Maw to an Ezreal to an Ashe.

EedatJul 28, 20171 votes

Even then there is a difference. Some ADCs have more burst and less DPS Graves Quinn Corki while others have great DPS but low burst Sivir KogMaw Tristana

Not saying these champs have no DPS, but it's definitely not up to par with dedicated DPS types. Dedicated DPS types also normally need like 3 items to really get going

DurzakaJul 28, 20171 votes

Thats completely irrelevant.

ADCs dont get blanket buffs, unless it is on their items. In which case, splitting them into groups wouldnt change the items that are bought.

Just by putting them into groups isnt going to magically make them more balanced.

Just like right now ADCs arent magically getting buffs to go against their play style. IE. Ez isnt getting buffs to make him less of a caster and more of a basic AA ADC.

SEKAIJul 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Thats completely irrelevant.

ADCs dont get blanket buffs, unless it is on their items. In which case, splitting them into groups wouldnt change the items that are bought.

Just by putting them into groups isnt going to magically make them more balanced.

Just like right now ADCs arent magically getting buffs to go against their play style. IE. Ez isnt getting buffs to make him less of a caster and more of a basic AA ADC.

Subclasses make sure those within that subclass will get balanced towards their pro and emphasise their con.

The lack of it means perks get wasted, some get too less cons while another get too much, and unequal power strength because you're trying to balance everyone based on how well they climb a tree as per the definition of the class but well, not everyone is meant to climb a tree due to their kit design.

Subclasses are in every class, the only class that doesn't have it is the marksmen; and the most imbalanced class is also the marksmen class. The way they are imbalanced has always been the same too, some are too strong while some are left in a ditch, because despite the vast kit differences, they all use the exact same balancing philosophy since there is no subclasses to divide their ranks unlike the other classes. This enough should already be a clear indicator that they need one.

FantasySniperJul 28, 20173 votes

Sniper: Longer ranged, often focused on area denial. Ashe Caitlyn Ezreal Jhin Jinx MissFortune Tristana Varus Xayah

Gunslinger: Shorter ranged, more agile. Draven Graves Kalista Kindred Lucian Quinn Sivir Twitch Vayne

KogMaw Sniper hybrid Artillery Corki Gunslinger hybrid Battle Mage Azir Battle Mage hybrid Sniper Urgot Diver hybrid Gunslinger

Teridax68Jul 28, 20173 votes

I think marksmen needing to be broken down into smaller subclasses is long overdue, yes. Thus far they are still the only class to not have any subclasses under the official denomination list, and this is after they had an entire preseason update dedicated to them, suggesting that there is likely much deeper work to be done still. Part of the problem, I suspect, is that there's still a lot of overlap between marksmen in what they do, as autoattacking power grants a pretty broad set of strengths (e.g. waveclear, structure/objective damage, sustained teamfight damage, etc.), and is common across pretty much all members of the class. Because of this, I also think it's important that marksmen need to be split along what they contribute, rather than how they play: we already have caster marksmen and autoattack marksmen with very similar contributions, so separating them based on their ability usage risks creating further overlap along the way, which would be harmful to diversity of picks in the long run.

Personally, I think three of the classes mentioned by the OP could be suitable enough to split the marksman class into subclasses: as a class, marksmen supply damage over time via ranged basic attacks, and I think we can split that further into duelists, i.e. marksmen with above-average survivability who can kill single targets quicker, glass cannons, who can seriously affect multiple enemies when protected adequately, and utility providers, who round out teams with a blend of DPS and either strong utility or CC. I also agree that some AP do qualify as marksmen, so making the marksman denomination exclusive to AD makes little sense.

Based on the above model, here's how I'd divide the current marksmen:

Duelists:

Caitlyn
Corki
Draven
Ezreal
Gnar (hybrid vanguard)
Graves
Jayce (hybrid artillery/non-specific fighter)
Kindred
Lucian
Quinn
Urgot (hybrid juggernaut)
Vayne

Glass Cannons:

Azir (hybrid battle mage)
Jhin (hybrid utility provider)
Jinx
Kog'Maw
Miss Fortune
Twitch (hybrid assassin)
Xayah (hybrid duelist)

Utility Providers:

Ashe
Kalista (hybrid duelist)
Kennen
Sivir
Teemo (hybrid duelist)
Tristana (hybrid duelist)
Varus (hybrid glass cannon)

This is off the top of my head, so there might be some questionable champion-subclass pairings here.

Valor BotJul 28, 20171 votes

Quinn is more Assassin-like than Twitch imo. Assassins are defined by their mobility, which is pretty much Quinn's defining characteristic. Twitch on the other hand only has 'soft' mobility via his stealth, no true dashes or significant movement speed boosts.

Torterra62Jul 27, 20172 votes

assassin Draven

BeatinWarDrumzJul 27, 20172 votes

Caster, Duelist, hypercarry

Caster: Corki Ezreal Varus MissFortune

Duelist: Vayne Lucian Kindred

Hypercarry: Jinx Jhin Ashe Sivir Kalista KogMaw Jinx Tristana Twitch Kalista

My Waifu VanillaJul 27, 20173 votes

As a few others have stated Varus doesn't play like a Caster nearly as much as he did before because he is forced to auto attack A LOT since his Q got thrown in the trash bin. He is still arguably in a utility ADC category with Ashe/Sivir/Jhin due to his CC.

Sexy Jack RabbitJul 28, 20171 votes

He's not trash. He's just actually forced to use the rest of his kit once in a while. You only need to land 1 AA per target to get the Q CD reset, and even less if you have Runaans'.

His kit is more skillshot based then it is AA-based. So he is caster.

Dominick DestineJul 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Caster, Duelist, hypercarry

Caster:

Duelist:

Hypercarry:

Damn, Kallista so OP she is double the hyper-carry everyone else is !

BeatinWarDrumzJul 28, 20171 votes

whups my bad

aspects1Jul 28, 20172 votes

corki doesnt classify as anything the point where void staff and ie are in the same core build tells you something about that champion

ModJango MageJul 28, 20171 votes

But if you take for ex an Artilery Mage like Xerath, and a battle Mage like Swain, they are waaaay more different from each other than Jinx and Vayne. In the end even if these adcs are played differently they have the same job. While other subclasses are doing more distinct jobs compared.

Tobias BracknerJul 28, 20171 votes

They need to label Azir as a Marksman again.

Synnx7Jul 28, 20171 votes

Well riot has a raging boner for right clicking champs , 1 shooting per right click. Muh pro play$ LC$ pl$ watch

KawaiiShroomJul 28, 20171 votes

We should have casters and auto attackers.

Antr0p0sJul 28, 20171 votes

Then you have the assassin adcs like: Caitlyn Draven Twitch

GigaPubeJul 28, 20171 votes

core build

oook bud, i see what this is. you make a bunch of great posts and ideas then try to sneak in a little teaser to see if everyones kissing your ass unconditionally. ill kiss it alright. but im not building void staff on corki, and neither is anyone else. barely bought at all as a 5th item is definitely not core. come on now

as for the "important" stuff, naaa too many classifications already. this isnt music genres with millions of songs with such a rich history and endless possibilities, we just need 1 name for ranged autoattackers and people will get it. they all have 4 abilities and a passive, they can pretty much all be casters. vayne is the least caster-y, but she does more with her autos and less everything else than, as you put it nicely, AA based hypercarries like kog and jinx. or maybe in the future you'd build full crit on a caster ADC and all they'd do is auto and not waste time with other abilities unless its life or death (like current jinx. lowering W CD? but nobody wants to use that so frequently anyway unless for very rare specific situations like 800-900 range disengage on a much faster bruiser???)

anyway, its just too much trouble. people are already arguing here about those current classifications. people have always argued about riots classifications, past and present. just leave it as is and hope that new players can figure out how unique every champion really is for themselves

its a great idea though, and maybe they can make it work in some other way

Lord BoltrixJul 29, 20171 votes

Considering the range of ADC playstyles, there should be four types of ADC classes.

The Gunslinger; those who are not afraid of getting close and personal with an enemy, having the means by which to dance and tumble around their foes, and for whom the risk and reward of getting in close is the name of the game. Example: Kindred. Her kit focuses on pursuing and hopping around enemies with the intent of making them face their demise, and she has the tools to avoid and even answer her own potential end.
The Sniper; those who emphasize keeping a distance at all times and whose primary method of attack is to opportunistically poke at enemies from a far, and at no point should they try to engage, for their defensive options are extremely limited if nonexistent. Example: Ezreal. Before I get complaints, while he might fit other roles well, overall his design is to poke enemies from afar and to use his blink defensively, although it can be used offensively but at the cost of leaving him without any means of protecting himself outside of summoners spells.
The Mercenary; those who have no personal investment in starting fights unless there is opportunity present, their focus is on responding to situations and making the most of them with tools unique to themselves, they prefer an unfair fight. Example: Kalista. She has no earthly business trying to start fights, dependent as she is on her support to create favorable situations for her to capitalize on, and due to the limited nature of her kit without someone to cover her, Kalista won't commit herself to a fight unless she knows without a doubt she can win.
The Siegemaster; those who care little for the intricacy of battle, preying upon the weak with their offensive capabilities at the cost of proving themselves vulnerable should their foe fight back, they seek to overwhelm opponents to cover for their own weakness. Example: Draven. As much as he would have you believe he is all about show and awe, in reality he's just a massive brute like his brother, and his playstyle is complete aggression with some pizzazz mixed in to cover for how vulnerable he is if he can't bully his opponent.

CatastropJul 29, 20171 votes

Looking through these comments, it's pretty clear Marksmen not only have drastically different playstyles to be lumped together, but they also toe the line between several classes at once in most cases.