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So...Ekko still constantly dominant. Why?

Seenan··68 votes·4,988 views

Decided to try to hop into ranked after all this MYMU business. Didn't think to ban Ekko cause I was not in the mood to fight some gay-ass smite Vayne. So I banned her. Immediately was met with the top laner pick/ban MSI picks (of course...)

Going fine for the first..25-30 minutes? The late fights come around afterwards and their Veigar is stacked and whatnot. Their Trist is just there. Meanwhile their Karma, Ekko, and Maokai are just ccing and killing everything. Mid-late game comes around and fight breaks out. Ekko chased me down once he got close to me with just his E->Q and passive procs...as SIVIR, with my heal and ult MS buff currently active...and I even flashed beforehand cause Maokai tried rooting me. What the fuck.

MSI giving him a pretty much 100% pick rate, with practically no other top laners besides Poppy and Maokai, and possibly Ryze showing up...Why on earth was this stupid utility assassin rebuffed anyway? There was a reason he was nerfed upon release and now he's capable of building tank again and being practically non-kiteable. 'Let's give a utility assassin a mini-stormraider's surge in his easily procc-able, high base damage, 3-hit passive.' ...'Lets increase tank itemization efficiency so we see tankssassins, that'll be fun to see!'...

Actually, the fact that MSI is purely picking Ekko...And even DYRUS used Ekko for a majority to get his main and his smurf from Master to Challenger...Should be clear indicators that this champ is a joke.

inb4 FOTM/freelo-dickrider downvotes. You know this champ is a stupid mess of imbalance. Maybe not worse than current Malzahar, but still pretty dumb.

SIDENOTE: This whole lobby had purely Turkish people in it. Why the fuck are people from Turkey in NA?

107 Comments

Spacesuit Spiff25 votes

Tank ekko just shouldn't be a thing. AP ekko is neat because he's like a gnat that pesters in a teamfight, until he finally gets a chance to blow something up. That's neat to play against. Tank ekko is just a joke that crowds out the tanks that were designed as tanks.

manbearswine2 votes

{quoted}

Tank ekko just shouldn't be a thing. AP ekko is neat because he's like a gnat that pesters in a teamfight, until he finally gets a chance to blow something up. That's neat to play against. Tank ekko is just a joke that crowds out the tanks that were designed as tanks.

What the hell makes everyone think ap ekko is some pinnacle of good design anyway? Yeah I just love hyper mobile assassins oneshotting things with lichbane and having a 2.5 seconds aoe stun+nuke/heal/escape ult, with an insane slow and an insane shield, yeah, that one is awesome.

Seriously tank ekko is overtuned and his kit doesn't make too much sense as a tank, but it makes even less sense as an ap assassin.

I mean at least tanks are supposed to cc you and be hard to kill(though he is too mobile and deals to much damage as a tank), it's still better than an assassin who can tank and cc you.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

What the hell makes everyone think ap ekko is some pinnacle of good design anyway?

He's not. And very few people claim that. However, Ekko's fundamental problems are less apparent when he bursts you but dies to a stiff breeze. As opposed to tank Ekko who bursts you, your carry, and your dog then walks away with half health. (Pardon the exaggeration - we all know he won't kill a late-game Susan.)

But no build can cover up the fundamental issue releasing a support/assassin. Because those things totally belong together. (>_>)

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yOanzGkm,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2016-05-09T05:12:33.433+0000)

He's not. And very few people claim that. However, Ekko's fundamental problems are less apparent when he bursts you but dies to a stiff breeze.

What the hell are you talking about? Ekko as a champion has solid base stats, his ap build generally includes RoA and zhonya's, he has a fucking 1.5 ap ratio shield, and an ult which is both an escape and in practice a damage reduction( because assassins with damage reductions are fun), unless you can burst down the guy(which due to his core build and base stats, is highly unlikely) he will ult to reduce damage and get himself back in the fight, he doesn't die easily at all.

Oh and did I mention the 2.25 second aoe stun?

As opposed to tank Ekko who bursts you, your carry, and your dog then walks away with half health. (Pardon the exaggeration - we all know he won't kill a late-game Susan.)

Yes, ekko is overtuned at the moment, this is new to no one.

But no build can cover up the fundamental issue releasing a support/assassin. Because those things totally belong together. (>_>)

How about a support/tank then? Reduce his mobility, reduce his damage-> you now get a tanky guy with cc and some mobility and damage(kind of like gragas, or poppy, or maokai).

His kit as a tank makes sense, the current numbers don't(which is news to no one), something has to give(again, new to no one), just don't compensate this something with increased ratios anywhere in his kit.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Not that tanks in League are anything more than just a champ that buys full tank and still 2 shots the carry.

Ralanr8 votes

As a tank main, I would like to kindly tell you to STFU about tanks two shotting carries.

Tanks are champions like Sion, Malphite, Zac, and Rammus. Not Garen, Darius, Mundo, Nasus, and Illaoi.

If you are getting two shorted by people like Sion, then I don't know what to say to you.

A Miss Fortune4 votes

Any champion that builds 6 tank items is basically a tank. So yes, I'm going to call the Trundle with item 3065 item 3068 item 3102 item 3742 item 3143 item 3111 a "tank" because that's what he is.

Personally I love true tanks like Sion, that are actual tanks. They heavily rely on their team to use their peeling and crowd control, and when their team follows up on them they can make great plays. However Riot clearly doesn't understand that this is what a tank is, because right now all I'm seeing is Mundo running around, immortal, while dealing 1k+ damage to whoever he chooses.

Though I have to disagree about Malphite. Tanks are suppose to be extremely defensive but Malphite is loaded with offensive abilities that usually subsequently make him stronger as well.

Ralanr5 votes

I have to disagree on what makes a tank. For me it isn't build, but how their kit works (which is why I don't see Mundo has a tank).

I only gave Malphite because it's hard to find a tank nowadays that people don't outright hate for one reason or another. Since Malphite is one of the most known tanks, it made sense.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

If I see the enemy Caitlyn just stacked 6 Warmogs I'm calling her a tank.

You can't really say that a tank is defined by their kit rather than their build when things like Ekko, who doesn't really have anything at all in his kit referring to him being a tank, is one of the strongest if not the strongest tank in the game right now. He actually has a 60% banrate right now because of how strong he is, with all of his popular builds consisting almost 100% of tank based items. The only non-defensive item is Abyssal, but even then that gives you a decent amount of defensive stats.

Ralanr3 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yOanzGkm,comment-id=000b00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-08T23:25:49.754+0000)

If I see the enemy Caitlyn just stacked 6 Warmogs I'm calling her a tank.

That's not a tank, that's just a meat shield ADC with poor damage output. A tank has things in their kit that scale off of defensive stats (mainly health, but in rare cases there is resistance scaling). No ADC has such abilities built into their kit.

Sure it'd be a tanky Cait, but Tanky=/=Tank.

You can't really say that a tank is defined by their kit rather than their build when things like Ekko, who doesn't really have anything at all in his kit referring to him being a tank, is one of the strongest if not the strongest tank in the game right now. He actually has a 60% banrate right now because of how strong he is, with all of his popular builds consisting almost 100% of tank based items. The only non-defensive item is Abyssal, but even then that gives you a decent amount of defensive stats.

An exception does not make a rule. Ekko was built as a utility assassin (which Riot may have made a mistake on) who (imo) was an experiment to see if they could build assassins that didn't need to get fed to be useful as the game goes on. You know, the main problem with assassins.

The problem is that utility is incredibly powerful on its own. Whenever a support champ (like Sona) is able to function as a midlaner, you can tell that they are only held back by poor scalings on their damage (which is why they usually take mid when their scalings aren't crap) and will utterly rekt people and find ways to avoid getting destroyed.

Now Ekko is loaded with utility, but what does he trade for it? As far as I can tell, nothing. This is why his tank build is so powerful, because he doesn't lose anything from building it. Course they can nerf his bases and what not, but he never really traded anything for his utility in the first place.

Now I like Ekko, full AP Ekko. I liked him more than I thought I would. But I refuse to build him tank because it showcases how much of a problem his kit is.

His kit could use some tweaks. I'm honestly tired of killing Ekko in top lane and I'd like some more variety.

TheNewHumanine1 votes

Pretty sure full tank Malphite can still two-shot a carry, especially if he builds IBG/Sunfire.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Ap Ekko does a fk ton of dmg. E + Q 2 stacks basically oneshots ADCs.

Sir Hammerlock6 votes

Ekko is still extremely dominant because of his base damages, shield, innate cc and low mana costs.

Riot has nerfed him, yes, but not the in the way he needs.

The reason Tank Ekko is so effective is primarily because of his base damages being so incredibly high, and that his Ultimate makes him a wall that the enemy team HAS to deal with during team fights.

His laning phase holds almost no counterplay save to a couple champions due to him having 4 slows and a stun, on top of a massive AoE-shield.

Croanin2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Hammerlock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yOanzGkm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-08T01:35:19.114+0000)

Ekko is still extremely dominant because of his base damages, shield, innate cc and low mana costs.

Riot has nerfed him, yes, but not the in the way he needs.

The reason Tank Ekko is so effective is primarily because of his base damages being so incredibly high, and that his Ultimate makes him a wall that the enemy team HAS to deal with during team fights.

His laning phase holds almost no counterplay save to a couple champions due to him having 4 slows and a stun, on top of a massive AoE-shield.

Not overloaded at all. Seriously though Ekko makes me freakin miss Riven being meta.

Ralanr1 votes

I will never miss her being meta.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

I miss when people didn't know how to animation cancel with her.

Nahui1 votes

4 slows?

Sir Hammerlock7 votes

Passive slows, W slows, W-Passive slows, Q slows W stuns. W shields.

His W is basically what's making his kit broken.

Nahui5 votes

Wait I'm confused. I count 3. His passive slows, his Q slows, and his W slows.

Seenan4 votes

{quoted}

Wait I'm confused. I count 3. His passive slows, his Q slows, and his W slows.

He possibly could've meant Frostborne Gauntlet or interpreted a MS+% buff as a slow.

Nahui3 votes

Well he said W and W-passive. Not really sure tbh, maybe he interprets the W as more than it really is slow wise.

M Dragon141 votes

Haha, I was confused as well. Still 2 too many slows though imo, balance wise.

tidegate1 votes

Doesn't his q slow on the way out and in?

M Dragon141 votes

It slows when it is fully extended (when the circle gets larger), not when he first fires it or when it is on it's way out.

Lady Hammerlock11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Hammerlock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yOanzGkm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-08T01:35:19.114+0000)

Ekko is still extremely dominant because of his base damages, shield, innate cc and low mana costs.

Riot has nerfed him, yes, but not the in the way he needs.

The reason Tank Ekko is so effective is primarily because of his base damages being so incredibly high, and that his Ultimate makes him a wall that the enemy team HAS to deal with during team fights.

His laning phase holds almost no counterplay save to a couple champions due to him having 4 slows and a stun, on top of a massive AoE-shield.

his base dmg actually isn't very high,its the fact that he has absurdly low cooldowns and is the stickiest shit you'll ever see

Seenan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Hammerlock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yOanzGkm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-08T01:35:19.114+0000)

Ekko is still extremely dominant because of his base damages, shield, innate cc and low mana costs.

Riot has nerfed him, yes, but not the in the way he needs.

The reason Tank Ekko is so effective is primarily because of his base damages being so incredibly high, and that his Ultimate makes him a wall that the enemy team HAS to deal with during team fights.

His laning phase holds almost no counterplay save to a couple champions due to him having 4 slows and a stun, on top of a massive AoE-shield.

His issue apart from his stupid base damages, is his massive utility. A potential doubled-dash, a slow that lingers, a stun-field that gives him a shield ALONG with stunning for a pretty long time..with a mini slow anyway (kinda hard to setup, but still a bit too strong), and his ult which can be seen as a 'wait lemme try this again' card or as a nuke.

And all of his cds are laughable once some cdr is obtained.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

A potential doubled-dash

Technically, one of those is a blink.

GinoSoldier5 votes

Following a player's idea that got noticed by reds, Ekko may very well get his base CC lowered and given AP scalings instead, thus murdering tank Ekko and bringing back the mage they intended him to be. We'll have to see but the idea was noted by the balance team, which is a good thing.

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

Following a player's idea that got noticed by reds, Ekko may very well get his base CC lowered and given AP scalings instead, thus murdering tank Ekko and bringing back the mage they intended him to be. We'll have to see but the idea was noted by the balance team, which is a good thing.

mm..he was made to be an assassin from how I see his kit. I don't think I know of an actual non-assassin melee mid, to be honest. Unless we count Jayce or something.

GinoSoldier15 votes

{quoted}

mm..he was made to be an assassin from how I see his kit. I don't think I know of an actual non-assassin melee mid, to be honest. Unless we count Jayce or something.

Everyone. Always. Forgets. Galio. :P

TotalJerk4 votes

Looking at his kit... why the fuck is he melee?

Pale Pirate1 votes

He's best friends with Morde.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

I think Taric took that spot.

Narasimha2 votes

I think you mean Galium.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Following a player's idea that got noticed by reds, Ekko may very well get his base CC lowered and given AP scalings instead, thus murdering tank Ekko and bringing back the mage they intended him to be. We'll have to see but the idea was noted by the balance team, which is a good thing.

Yes, I can't wait for ap ekko to snare me with his slow, that would be awesome.

Why do people keep thinking ap ekko is healthier than tank ekko? if anything he is even more obnoxious, he is just weaker at the moment, but don't confuse weakness with good gameplay, ap ekko makes even less sense than tank ekko, at least as far kits(and not numbers) are concerned.

Zedex2 votes

So I'm guessing your solution would be to gut the champion?

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

So I'm guessing your solution would be to gut the champion?

Balance him around being a tank, buffing his ratios(and yes, utility ratios are still ratios) will make ap ekko scale in a really stupid manner throughout the game.

Besides, his kit makes more sense( or less nonsense) as a tank.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

buffing his ratios(and yes, utility ratios are still ratios) will make ap ekko scale in a really stupid manner throughout the game.

Tell that to the support update a while back. Champion CC got gutted until it required 500+ AP just to reach old values. And remember: supports aren't supposed to do damage, or buy stats. If they want to take that route, I'm sure they can balance it out eventually.

Sona Wait, but I - Riot: Someone hit Sona with the nerf bat again!

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yOanzGkm,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-09T05:18:04.933+0000)

Tell that to the support update a while back.

The problem with the support update wasn't utility ratios(or old ratios), it was misreading the situation(understandably) then refusing to act on it for years(including now).

My problem with ekko is of very different nature, a ratio(including a utility one) means scaling better into the lategame, the fear is that ekko will have a weak early, but if he get's out of it he will be a tanky assassin who roots you with his slows.

Champion CC got gutted until it required 500+ AP just to reach old values. And remember: supports aren't supposed to do damage, or buy stats. If they want to take that route, I'm sure they can balance it out eventually.

Sona Wait, but I - Riot: Someone hit Sona with the nerf bat again!

Well at least the sona buffs on pbe seem in the right direction, but riot's problems with sona are of a different nature, and are mostly winrate oriented.

Truly Prideful5 votes

His kit just has a crazy amount of utility in it so he makes a great pick even with little to no damage items. His cooldowns being generally as low as they are give him solid damage just through doing rotations so often and he's really difficult to escape from because he can slow you constantly. It also helps him that he somewhat has a second life that makes him a bit more difficult to kill off than the usual beefy character. His W shield itself just adds to it all, it's great even if he doesn't stun anyone because the shield is really solid.

Ekko overall is just a character that is so good built tanky and there isn't much Riot can do without changing how he functions. He's just problematic by design, a character with as much utility as he has will always make a solid tank. Nerfing his bases like everyone wants probably won't change his build, his utility will still be there just with a little less damage.

Gulma5 votes

ekko can just go full tank and still do plenty of damage with great cc. the problem is there is no risk for anything he does as he has a way out of most situations. increasing cooldowns would be a good nerf to punish mistakes/mobility.

Jeddy0173 votes

How many times are Riot going to have to nerf Tankko? They nerfed it last year 1 or 2 months after his release. Though that was the era of the Cinderhulk Tank Meta. Several months later, Tankko is back at it again with the low trade offs build. Riot nerfs several things that makes Tankko (items, masteries & Ekko himself) & he's still strong. What's to stop Tankko from coming back if they nerf him again?

Kalarepa3 votes

His E needs a nerf. Just look at what it does:

  • gives bonus damage to targets below 30% health
  • long range vision spel
  • Giant AoE 40% slow, that can turn into 2.5 seconds stun
  • shield for Ekko

And that's just 1 skill. Even simple AoE 2.5 seconds stun would be enough, but it does 3 other things on top of that. What was Riot even thinking, when they made this skill?
Same story with Tahm Kench's devour, before they nerfed it.

Photos of Ghosts4 votes

That's W.

YCitizenSnipsY2 votes

Look at SKT vs RNG. Tank Ekko with item 3143 item 3065 item 3025 did 5000 damage, which was more than double than anyone else in the fight.

Seenan2 votes

{quoted}

Look at SKT vs RNG. Tank Ekko with item 3143 item 3065 item 3025 did 5000 damage, which was more than double than anyone else in the fight.

I could be wrong, but I'm guessing a lot of that derives from his passive, and %hp damage on W on Maokai and whoever.

WTFRWARDS2 votes

MSI has shown that if you dont pick or ban ekko, you lose. It applies to 99% of our games as well. Every game I see him I die inside

Red Rocket2 votes

Tank ekko needs to be removed. Signed. I've played it before it was meta whenever we needed a tank and it is seriously unbalanced. The sad part is it's not even fun to play. You basically run around smacking them about tanking all the dmg they aren't doing to you and kill them. If you get focused you just press R and re-engage into a W shield/stun. Ap ekko is very balanced and fun to play as/against. You get cc'd and you can get blown right the fuck up. Go Ap-bruiser and you still can be blown up but you can still assassinate at least one person. This tank ekko meta though is obnoxious though. Riot should just gut (not nerf, fucking) his base stats and buff his ratios on his q+e. It'll kill tank ekko and hurt his early game (esp jungle ekko which I main) but considering his kit he should be able to survive until he gets 1-2 items and hit's a midgame power spike. As a utility assassin he will always be useful, therefore he doesn't need to follow the model of say Zed where he's strongest in the early to mid game. He should be a late game scaling assassin that relies on positioning and timing. It would reward players who know his kit and punish the kids who just waste their phase dive blinking into fights then spamming R to escape.

Also @Op: Don't play immobile adcs without hyper scaling and cry about being blown up please. Same thing would have happened whether is was the broken freelo tank Ekko or a out of meta Riven. It weakens your argument.

Dataless2 votes

I would be okay with Riot giving Ekko the Gangplank treatment

Lovelle2 votes

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Ekko's kit is the problem,not any particular build. He is an assassin with a support's level of utility. Until he is reworked, he will remain a problematic champion simply due to design.

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