Haunting Guise/Liandry's are still way too pricey

Seenan··104 votes·4,390 views

For what they do. I'd say for the small subset of champs that Liandry works really well on (dot champs), Guise or the entirety of Liandry should be less pricey. It's no wonder that non-dot champs would pretty much never even try buying the item (maybe Syndra?). It's the same price of Rylai's with 100 less hp, 20 less AP, 15 extra mpen, and a somewhat situational passive compared to Rylai's. Since they're both used in tandem when Liandry is necessary (or just good for the current champ), one amplifies the other, but that's a hefty 6.4k gold.

One or both of Guise/Liandry has to drop in price, imo.

inb4 this would break dot champs...Come on, they're already pretty ridiculous just by their kit (see: Brand, Malz).

EDIT: I just looked up the changes from back then and Liandry's was 2.9k with 50 AP and a slightly different build path. Now it's 3.2k with 30 more AP...This item's inconsistencies are ridiculous. 300 gold = 30 AP apparently. For Riot liking clean numbers, this item sure isn't clean at all. Before that little 300gold for 30 AP upgrade, it was probably 10-20% less gold efficient than now...At least.

98 Comments

Mandang014 votes

% current HP damage over time is just the single least-rewarding way to deal damage. Even if Liandry's is mathematically the correct buy (no clue whether it is), it'll never feel like it.

morris118 votes

AKA can't even kill minions at 10 hp.

statelesskiller3 votes

and then teemo buys it . . . and your adc loses 3/4 of there health from just 1

Samflash310 votes

But thats more due to the base damage of his shrooms.

aLawfulFalafel2 votes

IMO its more about the DOTs that OP was talking about

Zero Skill Tank8 votes

There's also the fact that Liandry's is the best tank buster available to mages, while building out of Guise, that is best flat magic penetration option...

This item needs to be reworked.

Enloct3 votes

This is the problem. The only situation it makes sense for is for busting a tank that for some reason has tons of hp but no MR. Flat Pen and %HP is really awkward.

Abyssphere2 votes

It's reasonable enough in some scenarios. In particular mages that try to build tanky can end up with a lot of bonus HP and few resistances (ROA, Rylai's and Liandry's isn't the most uncommon combo ever) and juggernauts have tons of HP on their core items but no MR outside of Visage.

Champion Skin1 votes

Actually for most mages Void staff is probably a better tank buster than liandries

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

There's also the fact that Liandry's is the best tank buster available to mages, while building out of Guise, that is best flat magic penetration option...

This item needs to be reworked.

Magic penetration in general needs to be reworked. Voidstaff is basically the pre-rework LW, it's good against everything all the time. If you want to deal magic damage it must be in your build somewhere. Meanwhile, like you point out, you have a flat pen item building into an attempted tank melter.

Instead there should be a new %pen component (like LW) that builds into Liandry's and the new AP GW item (don't just randomly toss GW on something that is popular for its stats alone, make it something you intentionally invest in against Mundo/Swain/etc.).

A flat pen component (whether it's HG or something new) should build into a burst/assassin-mage item that helps a lot for blowing up squishies but doesn't perform as well against tanks. A properly tweaked Luden's might work.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't do more with magic pen itemization with MYMU, especially since the armor pen changes in preseason worked out so well (IMO).

TotalJerk1 votes

It's an extremely underrated item that just feels like shit.

Mandang01 votes

Well, you're certainly right about the second part.

TotalJerk1 votes

No I mean someone crunched the numbers and if a champion's rotation is slower than around a second Liandry's does more damage than Luden's against champions in almost every scenario. People have been sleeping on the item because they remember when it only granted 50 AP.

DarkSunSovereign11 votes

Buff Liandry, make it not reset on DoTs. The end.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

{quoted}

Buff Liandry, make it not reset on DoTs. The end.

i would agree but it would be too strong on someone like azir. yay ofcourse how could it not be.

no seriously think about it

DarkSunSovereign2 votes

Nerf azir's AS then; what's worse, having an item suck on everyone except 5 champs or having a champ need an item to function, but have it be a viable situational choice for all others?

Hinagiku331 votes

So Akali 's addiction to item 3146 basically...

DarkSunSovereign1 votes

It wouldn't be as bad for Azir though; he has higher priorities- namely, Rilay or Nashor's Tooth.

Jeanne fan club7 votes

Liandries should be buffed. It should do 3% damage burn instead of 2% damage burn. As it is right now building flat hp still hard counters mages.

GrReaper965 votes

Id be happy if they just change it to max health instead of current health.

RoodToob2 votes

They would lower it to 1.5% probably. Max health would be a huge buff

Cosmic Warper4 votes

{quoted}

They would lower it to 1.5% probably. Max health would be a huge buff

I'd rather have 1.5% max hp per second over 4 seconds than 3% current hp per second any day. It's way more consistent.

Edit 2% current hp not 3%, and 3s instead of four.

aLawfulFalafel1 votes

untill you face a brand

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Cosmic Warper1 votes

{quoted}

untill you face a brand

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Brand's DoT passive got significantly weaker after the MYMU changes. His AoE % max hp nuke is what really hurts. The burn is really low now.

aLawfulFalafel2 votes

it still burns the entire time you fight him and even after his passive burn runs out

it helps to enhance him a lot in a fight AND in a poke trade

it really is a solid item

Kalarepa7 votes

I agree. You pay 3200 gold for DoT, which does next to 0 dmg to a tank who bought Spectre's Cowl for 1200 gold.

Steelflame1 votes

Actually, the dot might even technically HEAL the tank that bought Specter's Cowl. 4 extra seconds of +150% base hp regen means on low hp targets it may just be a heal, not a damage dealing effect.

ForeverLaxx1 votes

The Spectre's Cowl "heal" is just an enhanced regeneration effect that's weaker than Visage's constant buff to regeneration. Anyone that ends up at higher HP total due to Spectre's Cowl passive after hit isn't doing enough damage to warrant worrying about.

Steelflame1 votes

That is the thing though. The fact is, Specter's Cowl healing/amplified regen flat out negates Liandry's Burn, to even heals from it at low enough hp levels. Is it less than Visage's full time HP/5? Yes. But it is conditional HP/5 that Liandry's Burn increases the uptime on by an additional 3 seconds. And its a statement to the fact that a 1200 gold cost item almost flat out counters a 3200 gold item.

Sona FemBoy6 votes

Lower Haunting Guise from 1600G to something like 1200-1400G. Sacrifice some of its hp/ap if need be, but the flat mpen should be more accessible, since flat mpen is an early to midgame stat. And if you currently want early/midgame flat MR reduction, then Abyssal Scepter outshines your other option (Haunting Guise) far too much.

Papa Slothy1 votes

I agree

Troll for Trump5 votes

Definatly Haunting Guise.

Buying guise at it's current cost is just not good enough to keep up with the other items people get at around that tier.(or maybe even less)

TotalJerk1 votes

Haunting Guise is 102.32% gold efficient.

Champion Skin1 votes

Haunting Guise is pretty decent though it not building into anything decent for most champions makes it a lot less appealing

TotalJerk1 votes

Before Runic echoes existed I thought it would've made a great component for a runeglaive replacement if they removed the health and lowered the cost.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Until you realise a large chunk of that is from the health which is suuuuper meh at best when your lane opponent is rocking 60 more AP than you because they went for raw AP.

AP+Health cannot go on anything not a max item because they (as stats) are too expensive.

TotalJerk1 votes

Part of why I think the health should be removed. Nobody buys Haunting guise or Liandry's for the health except maybe Amumu. If they did that they could bring the cost of Haunting Guise down to 1,100. The health is responsible for around 500-600 of Haunting Guise's gold cost.

Gotta keep in mind that this kinda change would be an AP assassin buff, though.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

I still think they should leave Guise's cost close to the same and give it CDR (no health) and have Liandry's get a Kindlegem in the recipe (along with a Blasting Wand or something) or just drop the cost (and health) and have Liandry's build out of Kindlegem+Guise+Codex. Either way the health needs to be removed to open up more build paths and Liandry's makes the most sense to be the second 20% CDR item for mages (which Riot has said they want) since it already promoted poke with the %current health and the flat pen.

TotalJerk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EUEV7WvG,comment-id=00090000000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-28T03:54:07.240+0000)

I still think they should leave Guise's cost close to the same and give it CDR (no health)

If you do that then it becomes an AP Brutalizer.

Troll for Trump1 votes

it's current cost is just not good enough to keep up with the other items people get at around that tier.

other

It also is locked into only one build (Liandry's).

I think the health is nice. If you buy liandry's, it'll be a bit before you can get a defensive item against a assassin or bursty champion.

The offence on it aren't that good compared to other items/item combinations or as flexible.

Evewynn3 votes

It was meant to be used as an answer for characters that stack health, but the damage on the passive is so small that it never really fulfilled that fantasy, especially because so many mages feature AoE (which cuts the already small damage). The only Mage I ever use it on is Malz.

Before the Mage items got looked at further, people only built it because it gave relatively good stats and built out of the premier mid-game item of the time, haunting guise (which now hardly anyone gets because of its cost). With so many better options out there, it has fallen out of favor like a lead brick.

They should honestly rework the item into something that actually works against health stacking targets, because I would much rather just get a void staff over it if ever considering this item. There's a lot of competition in the form of Mage items, so its niche needs to be further defined.

General Esdeath 2 votes

I don't get why they cost so much. Liandry's % HP damage doesn't justify it since Vayne can do way more % HP damage for free.

Seenan2 votes

{quoted}

I don't get why they cost so much. Liandry's % HP damage doesn't justify it since Vayne can do way more % HP damage for free.

To be fair, that's directly in her kit...And Vayne is just...Vayne. Can't really compare a champ to an item.

General Esdeath 1 votes

Except her % HP damage can do way more and it's faster. Some matchups she can max W first, especially vs tank top laners like Singed and Cho.

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

Except her % HP damage can do way more and it's faster. Some matchups she can max W first, especially vs tank top laners like Singed and Cho.

Idk, champ.gg says she maxes W first pretty often anyway.

General Esdeath 1 votes

I see a lot of people max Q, but I barely see her top anymore.

Champion Skin1 votes

Q max is better for kiting with the cooldown going from 6 seconds down to 2 seconds (and it also deals +20% AD)

While W max increase the damage from 6% to 12% of max HP

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

It depends on the match up. If you are against something like Cait Soraka (no skill shots or need for constant mobility) and they have 2 mega tanks (Zac and Naut top or something) you can get away with like 2-3 points in Q early and max W first buy like level 10 and be more relevant in the midgame teamfights.

Mouse5341 votes

I find it more of a situational item on anybody who doesn't have a dot, as Void Staff just feels too damn good. Liandry's just feels like an option for mpen that didn't pan out, like there was supposed to be another option for Guise that just never happened.

Seenan2 votes

{quoted}

I find it more of a situational item on anybody who doesn't have a dot, as Void Staff just feels too damn good. Liandry's just feels like an option for mpen that didn't pan out, like there was supposed to be another option for Guise that just never happened.

And it is. Would you honestly rather buy a Void Staff or a Liandry first for Brand? Probably the former. The latter might just be convenient to have for some matchups since his passive changed slightly.

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