So, I stood there..dueling a Maokai for a solid minute or two as Tankko.

Seenan·Jun 10, 2016·84 votes·13,085 views

And we could've kept going with the sustain war but he ran out of mana so I chased him down.

Does that make Maokai AND Ekko an issue? Mao probably kept going for a lot longer if he had more mana.

But in any case, Ekko is actually STILL ridiculous, nerfs or not. I think this is a case of bad champ design...or something. I don't think I even utilized W's stun. It was just Q-E and what felt like 50 autos. I didn't need to ult either. After he gets Sunfire/Visage/Iceborn with Grasp, he rarely dies unless he's cc'd to high-hell.

I actually felt bad afterwards. I felt like I killed a kitten or something.

What even beats Ekko? Once I/we beat an Ekko cause he was AP mid (still building the tanky AP items), but a tankko? Obnoxious.

150 Comments

Sahn UzalJun 10, 201637 votes

I remember playing a game as Maokai versus Sion :p At level 6 I 2v1 doublekilled Sion and Jarven IV. When keeping Sion under his second tower, midlane Morgana came to gank me. I 2v1'd for ages, eventually died, after a battle that lasted like a minute. Sion and Morg were both low, but I eventually died to Sions Q. When he killed me, the Quote Sion played was ''You die too quickly!'' I actually laughed my ass off.

SpoofghoulJun 10, 201611 votes

yea sion is funny like that

he has more of such hilarious quotes

like yelling cowards as he runs away

Sahn UzalJun 10, 201612 votes

Sion has been one of my favorite champions since his rework.

COWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARDS

is one of the best one he has :p

''I had a funny bone once, then I crushed it. LAUGH WORM!!''

RiotLaBokaJun 11, 201621 votes

The amount of sustain in the game right now feels like a lot, with Grasp, Vampirism, and Feast almost always being taken.

BloodyTomponJun 11, 20166 votes

Plus RoA. Plus Warlords. Plus a few other regen masteries. REgen is out of whack across the board IMO, not just for tanks.

doiminat0r3600Jun 11, 20168 votes

For everyone except mages. Mages have no real way to regen and have to back late game. The only ones to do so.

what you deserveJun 11, 20163 votes

that's why gunblade is must-build for every mage

MealReadytoEatJun 11, 20161 votes

Catalyst really helps.

doiminat0r3600Jun 11, 20161 votes

It is very unreliable. Having to take damage in order to actually get HP back. It's a really bad trade off.

AMYS GRAVEJun 11, 20162 votes

Having to take damage in order to actually get HP back.

*mana

Doctor JarvisJun 11, 201614 votes

I uh...hm...what? That's...technically true, I suppose. Is it a problem? If it is, how much of a problem? Is the problem sustain, champs that can abuse sustain, or the fact that there's not much alternative to the masteries you listed? I get that you might not be on a team that has any control over those things, but I guess I'm just peeved that this Red Post was just "yep."

RiotLaBokaJun 11, 201629 votes

You're totally right. Let me actually say something more than just "yep." The amount of sustain in the game right now is excessive and potentially unhealthy. Sustain is part of the core identity of some champions like Swain and Vlad. But, particularly in the top lane, sustain reduces the impact of aggressive action--yeah I can go all in and try and body these fools but they can probably just heal it right back so why even bother. We see this, we're thinking about this, and we're looking for ways to reduce this.

Doctor JarvisJun 11, 20163 votes

I wasn't expecting a response. I like you, Mr LaBoka. Thank you.

The Bearded BardJun 11, 201618 votes

How do you guys feel about lifesteal? Specifically on ADCs it seems a bit excessive. Basically if you can't one shot them, they'll live and be back to full health in a few autos.

IcyPepperJun 11, 201615 votes

I honestly think that's one of the least unhealthy cases, although it can be overtuned at times.

Lifesteal should be the defensive stat for ADC's. It keeps their health pool relatively low (so assassins can 100-0 them potentially), but keeps them in the game if they can duel and kite effectively.

The way I see it, and there are plenty of exceptions since league is about champion identity and not cookie cutter molds, is that tanks have access to the three main tank stats (MR, health, armor), mages have access to HP and sacrifice a bit of MR/Armor for AP, assassins have access to primarily MR, and bruisers have access to HP and either Armor/MR primarily depending on if they're AP or AD.

dEAdbUsJun 11, 201612 votes

That's why I see Vayne and Luci in every game. Kite and mobility are everything nowdays.

what you deserveJun 11, 20162 votes

and that's why i just play irelia because i can literally build whatever i want and win

ShadòwJun 11, 20163 votes

Life Steal Should be in general just 50% effective to non Champions

SasogwaJun 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

You're totally right. Let me actually say something more than just "yep." The amount of sustain in the game right now is excessive and potentially unhealthy. Sustain is part of the core identity of some champions like Swain and Vlad. But, particularly in the top lane, sustain reduces the impact of aggressive action--yeah I can go all in and try and body these fools but they can probably just heal it right back so why even bother. We see this, we're thinking about this, and we're looking for ways to reduce this.

Well at the same time it's dangerous to touch that. If a sustain based champion is too weak to trade, he's gonna get easily zoned off the creepwave and won't be able to do anything aka be useless, and at the same time if he's equally strong or stronger than his opponent he can absolutely dominate, even doing bad trades he can sustain his life back. Also about the all inning, well the all in is supposed to result in a kill or a flash, not just reducing his health bar by a little bit. Sure it's gonna be harder if he's very tanky, but in general tanks don't have insane sustain, it's been limited in general. But yeah recently with grasp being so deciding in toplane matchups, maybe it should not sustain or not do damage? Only one of those two aspects could actually still be strong and less obnoxious (sustain but doesn't chunk you ; or slight chunk but doesn't sustain you)

SohleksJun 11, 20163 votes

Hmmm. I'm not sure why now all of a sudden sustain is a problem. Not sure I agree. A certain amount of sustain is necessary to keep lanes from being too volatile. Heck only this season have we finally increased the cost of potions. Maybe maybe that increased the ~~necessity~~ or desire of sustain from other sources though.

Yeah catalyst and tear are really strong. Grasp is kinda broken. Lost chapter is just sitting there begging to get toned down imo. And teleport has been problematic for quite a while. ** One observation I myself have made about sustain and its power is how no matter how weak each piece seems they empower each other.** So once you have a tiny amount of lifesteal, then grasp, potions, base hp regen, and possible sources from champion's kit none of it might seem powerful but they end up all working together to make them all work longer. It's almost like you're pigeonholed to invest into every source of sustain no matter how small. So with a large number of factors in there you have a more complicated beast to balance.

But one thing that needs to be looked at is the new mage mana items. I think they're incredibly strong and possibly overtuned for the fear that mages would be thirsty because people were just used to mana regen as a stat before.

I'm not sure I love where this is going considering this thread is about Tankoo (ew) and Maokai. It's just not a very high pressure lane tbh....

Sustain IS important to keep easy sissy poke laning patterns and picks from being too dominant. Turn regen and potions off and see what happens to the game.

AMYS GRAVEJun 11, 20162 votes

Just remember that without sustain some champions cant function. I'm not talking drain tanks like swain or vlad but teamfight top laners like mao, zac, sion, etc.... If their sustain gets hit they will be hurt in a bad way. Maybe mao currently deserves the hit but remember to ensure that the sustain tools that teamfighters need to get through the laning phase remains intact.

dEAdbUsJun 11, 20165 votes

Why do you take decisions so slow? Ekko is in permaban for half year already and he's still super popular on high-elo/pro-scene. I spent those 6 months waiting for any proper balance, but instead of that I got all my mains reworked. Must be my vision of game is wrong, or I'm just a wrong kind of player and you don't like me. However, this season feels like wasted.

LankPantsJun 11, 20165 votes

Look at Zed, 80% BR, slap on the wrist, still 80% BR. I wonder who could have foreseen that?

AbyssphereJun 11, 20162 votes

Ekko has been hit like five times this season already. They're trying to deal with him, he's just insanely resilient to nerfs.

LaughingStaplerJun 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

The amount of sustain in the game right now feels like a lot, with Grasp, Vampirism, and Feast almost always being taken.

I think it's more champion kits than masteries. Also, if Vampirism was nerfed, certain junglers which already are subpar, like Mundo would simply be unviable primarily due to the early clear problems.

GigglesOJun 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

The amount of sustain in the game right now feels like a lot, with Grasp, Vampirism, and Feast almost always being taken.

You mean because it feels bad to not take sustain, and die over and over and over again?

LankPantsJun 11, 20164 votes

If we're going to talk about masteries I think the real problem is that there's a lack of true choice in the system. Why would I ever take anything other than Grasp on a tanky top lane? The other 'choices' are terrible. There's no mastery that's a more offensive option, Bond and SoA do nothing for tanky tops and while Thunderlords exists it requires tanky champs to opt into a sub-optimal tree and is generally worse. I think this is less of a problem on champs like Irelia and Jax who can run Fervour as well as Grasp.

This is also a huge problem for mages, who for the most part have one 'option' in Thunderlords. Most mages can't use Deathfire and the other two masteries in their tree are far too specialist.

Fjork3Jun 10, 201619 votes

"the tank rarely dies after finishing 3 full tank items" doesn't sound like that much of a problem.

SeenanJun 10, 20166 votes

{quoted}

"the tank rarely dies after finishing 3 full tank items" doesn't sound like that much of a problem.

But they're not even full tank items. Iceborn is an offensive tank item.

xxxDogmanxxxJun 10, 201613 votes

You want a real sustain battle? Before AP Xin Zhao got nerfed to oblivion, I had a literal three-minute, twenty four second battle with Warwick.

The Yetii RiderJun 10, 20165 votes

{quoted}

You want a real sustain battle? Before AP Xin Zhao got nerfed to oblivion, I had a literal three-minute, twenty four second battle with Warwick.

Nah man.

2 Olafs with 6 BTs pre-BT nerf. That's the real sustain battle.

Hyrum GraffJun 10, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2l32N0ww,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-06-10T13:23:04.958+0000)

Nah man.

2 Olafs with 6 BTs pre-BT nerf. That's the real sustain battle.

Tank karma vs tank karma.

It's like mundo vs mundo, except your ults don't wear off, ever.

JetjoeJun 10, 201610 votes

A nasus with some pretty good amounts of MR , a pantheon with one MR item, and maybe a quinn if she gets fed on early enough. But you are pretty much correct, ekko is fucking ridiculous . My girlfriend and I joke at all the base damages these fools of champions have.

SeenanJun 10, 20163 votes

{quoted}

A nasus with some pretty good amounts of MR , a pantheon with one MR item, and maybe a quinn if she gets fed on early enough. But you are pretty much correct, ekko is fucking ridiculous . My girlfriend and I joke at all the base damages these fools of champions have.

I don't think it's a numbers issue at this point. He's constantly nerfed on numbers and recently his passive's reproc was nerfed (right direction). Just a fundamental problem with his kit, lol. The passive nerf was a good way to slow his damage down for sure.

Troll for TrumpJun 10, 20162 votes

Guess who else 1v3s and 1v2 without problems

Illaoi

The AqualiousJun 10, 20162 votes

Fucking hentai bitch

I hate her E idc about the nerf, she is still strong

SeenanJun 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Fucking hentai bitch

I hate her E idc about the nerf, she is still strong

Her tentacles have just too much damage on them. Her missing hp% per tentacle hit is another annoyance altogether.

Ariel the CruelJun 11, 20167 votes

Her tentacles have just too much damage on them.

Well... Considering that is almost all of her damage. And her kit is pretty much shut down just by walking away. I don't think her damage is entirely unreasonable.

INoble KnightIJun 10, 20165 votes

I pick Singed into Tank Ekko. I win lane every single time.

Yuri By MailJun 10, 201614 votes

To be fair, Singed tends to bypass the lane phase altogether.

INoble KnightIJun 10, 20163 votes

No i stay in lane with Ekko and push him that hard. I don't proxy Ekko much if at all.

jaymc1130Jun 10, 20165 votes

WET NOODLE FIGHT!!! GETCHA TICKETS! TICKETS HERE! GETCHA TICKETS TO DA WET NOODLE FIGHT! TICKETS!!!

AFK PushJun 10, 20165 votes

You said he ran out of mana, so he at least has a weakness compared to Ekko. You know, Mao is designed as a tank, he is one of the best in the game thanks to his damage reduction on his ult and good sustain, but shouldn't be compared to a utility assassin building straight tank with just as much cc and the ability to outtank and outsustain him.

SeenanJun 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You said he ran out of mana, so he at least has a weakness compared to Ekko. You know, Mao is designed as a tank, he is one of the best in the game thanks to his damage reduction on his ult and good sustain, but shouldn't be compared to a utility assassin building straight tank with just as much cc and the ability to outtank and outsustain him.

Yeah, but keep in mind that he has a 7% max hp heal (or something) on his passive...All of the heal I got was from passive regen and grasp. AND he also had Grasp.

DeliothJun 11, 20164 votes

You were fighting Mao, who gets his heal from spellcasts... as a spellcaster assassin/tank. You probably used Q+E so much he didn't even need his own spells to proc his heal.

WutsKrakenJun 10, 20164 votes

Darius Can crush him any stage of the game. More damage early, more reliable sustain, and later on he stacks item 3071 very easily AND has his built in 25% armor pen while being very tanky himself

Trundle Sustain for days, a lot of damage and can steal tank stats

SeenanJun 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Can crush him any stage of the game. More damage early, more reliable sustain, and later on he stacks very easily AND has his built in 25% armor pen while being very tanky himself

Sustain for days, a lot of damage and can steal tank stats

Trundle...I'd think the Ekko can just back-off after Trundle ults. Darius, I don't rem if I've fought him yet.

WutsKrakenJun 10, 20163 votes

Pillar placement to stop the retreat is key

Also, if Ekko retreats, that means Trundle has won. Ekko has no sustain outside of ult whereas Trundle can sustain himself back just by hitting minions

If Trundle goes the tankbuster build, then it's a complete stomp, doesn't even need his ult

Wolfram OxfordJun 10, 20161 votes

Maokai and Ekko are similar champions, they both have a plethora of survivability, provide an insane amount of damage, have a lot of utility, and to top it off they have decent gap closers. They both have toxic designs unless nerfed heavily stat-wise.

OrangesilkJun 10, 20169 votes

Maokai was actually MEANT for this role, he pays for his tankiness with limited mobility (Have you seen the range on his "dash"), no actual escapes and while his damage is a bit overtuned atm, his design is by no means toxic.

Compare to Ekko who gets astounding mobility both from his dashes and his passive, a get out of jail free card, yet retains the tankiness and utility of a tank, with ASSASSIN base damages.