Patch 9.4 in a nutshell. Frustrating champions edition.

Craft Zeppelin·Mar 4, 2019·103 votes·18,414 views

These champions do not take skill to use anymore, winrate wise and non-context they are basically Annie/Yi entry-level now. Miss your skillshots and dash into them with your mobility and use your empowered autoattack and you win. No need to combo perfectly.

At least around season 4 when people complained about these champions, it was because of the outplay. Now it is just brute force. I remember back those days when Zed was complained in the boards NOT because he "one-shots" but was "difficult to gank" See the difference?

The people who mained them are pissed off because some noob can use them to be better than they have trained for, and people who are against them are fighting a wall of BS that have been built up by tons of buffs that went unchecked.

82 Comments

Wínters DawnMar 4, 201934 votes

I never thought yas took skill

Craft ZeppelinMar 4, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wínters Dawn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-04T04:36:38.199+0000)

I never thought yas took skill

Well at least we can remove him from the game when we pick malzahar.

Dewott610Mar 4, 201932 votes

Yasuo item 3140 "I alone decide my fate."

Craft ZeppelinMar 4, 20196 votes

{quoted}

"I alone decide my fate."

It sort of sounds wierd. But QSS is not simply enough for Yasuo to go waltz-free against malz. His silence enough is enough to screw everything he wants to do in teamfights. Also the fact that he builds crystal sceptre and applies it via his crabs and DOT makes his E dash really, really awkward.

But yeah, the ult is definitely the cherry on top. A BIG cherry that is on top of the fabulous cake.

Malix FarwinMar 4, 201912 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-04T06:26:13.618+0000)

It sort of sounds wierd. But QSS is not simply enough for Yasuo to go waltz-free against malz. His silence enough is enough to screw everything he wants to do in teamfights. Also the fact that he builds crystal sceptre and applies it via his crabs and DOT makes his E dash really, really awkward.

But yeah, the ult is definitely the cherry on top. A BIG cherry that is on top of the fabulous cake.

You havent even faced a half decent yasuo if you believe this nonsense.

IfnethMar 4, 20195 votes

But when does this half-decent Yasuo buy it? If he doesn’t pay the tax on his first back, then he gets the ax as soon as Malzahar hits level 6. If he does, then Malzahar will have Lost Chapter and an effective 1,300 gold lead, gaining lane priority.

It’s not impossible for Yasuo, but it will be hard.

Crescent DuskMar 4, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-04T06:26:13.618+0000)

It sort of sounds wierd. But QSS is not simply enough for Yasuo to go waltz-free against malz. His silence enough is enough to screw everything he wants to do in teamfights. Also the fact that he builds crystal sceptre and applies it via his crabs and DOT makes his E dash really, really awkward.

But yeah, the ult is definitely the cherry on top. A BIG cherry that is on top of the fabulous cake.

Assuming you even make it out of lane because like Annie, Malz's range is also atrocious and he does no damage whatsoever early and is a mana hog if he uses Q on a champ like Yassuo who only needs a single dash from an enemy near your same autoattack harassment range to chunk you for half your health with conqueror and then just rely on tornado harass every 9 seconds.

The virtual counterplay to Yasuo is "hope your jungler is not dumb and ganks Yasuo early to shut him down and end the game early enough because a Yasuo with just 3 items can start outdueling most of your team and split pushing."

I'm sick of all these melee and AD champs being given engage ranges and effective threat rangers as long as or longer than some of the short/mid ranged mages (like Annie, Malz, Swain) while having more survival, mobility, burst, and sustained DPS.

And what's more aggravating of Yasuo compared to Zed is not only that he does ridiculous damage with plenty of ways to avoid retaliation like Zed, but unlike Zed he even gets CC on his kit to boot.

Also, Malz with ult is not enough to kill a Yasuo who engages with his shield up. In the time you cast Q to follow up by ult he can dash to dodge the Q and only eat the ult stun which alongside E won't be anywhere enar enough damage to kill him before he kills you. You need a full WEQ combo followed by ult to threaten a kill and the Q will realistically never hit at the same time you ult which means he has an easy time dodging it and negating most of your damage.

It also doesn't help the voidlings are made of paper and die by a single Q (Zed also laughes at Malzahar since he has E up every time for when you put voidlings up and you lose all wavepushing pressure in that match up). I can't believe why voidlings haven't been given the Zyra or Heimerdinger minion treatment.

Even Yorick's ghouls don't get one shot that easily by a single ability.

kuzzy47Mar 4, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-04T22:20:14.234+0000)

Assuming you even make it out of lane because like Annie, Malz's range is also atrocious and he does no damage whatsoever early and is a mana hog if he uses Q on a champ like Yassuo who only needs a single dash from an enemy near your same autoattack harassment range to chunk you for half your health with conqueror and then just rely on tornado harass every 9 seconds.

The virtual counterplay to Yasuo is "hope your jungler is not r%%%%%ed and ganks Yasuo early to shut him down and end the game early enough because a Yasuo with just 3 items can start outdueling most of your team and split pushing."

I'm sick of all these melee and AD champs being given engage ranges and effective threat rangers as long as or longer than some of the short/mid ranged mages (like Annie, Malz, Swain) while having more survival, mobility, burst, and sustained DPS.

And what's more aggravating of Yasuo compared to Zed is not only that he does ridiculous damage with plenty of ways to avoid retaliation like Zed, but unlike Zed he even gets CC on his kit to boot.

Also, Malz with ult is not enough to kill a Yasuo who engages with his shield up. In the time you cast Q to follow up by ult he can dash to dodge the Q and only eat the ult stun which alongside E won't be anywhere enar enough damage to kill him before he kills you. You need a full WEQ combo followed by ult to threaten a kill and the Q will realistically never hit at the same time you ult which means he has an easy time dodging it and negating most of your damage.

It also doesn't help the voidlings are made of paper and die by a single Q (Zed also laughes at Malzahar since he has E up every time for when you put voidlings up and you lose all wavepushing pressure in that match up). I can't believe why voidlings haven't been given the Zyra or Heimerdinger minion treatment.

Even Yorick's ghouls don't get one shot that easily by a single ability.

Careful with using "r tarded" it gets posts removed even though it is censored.

Crescent DuskMar 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Careful with using "r tarded" it gets posts removed even though it is censored.

Thanks, I forgot I even got a notification for it last time; they are ridiculous.

Craft ZeppelinMar 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-04T22:20:14.234+0000)

Assuming you even make it out of lane because like Annie, Malz's range is also atrocious and he does no damage whatsoever early and is a mana hog if he uses Q on a champ like Yassuo who only needs a single dash from an enemy near your same autoattack harassment range to chunk you for half your health with conqueror and then just rely on tornado harass every 9 seconds.

The virtual counterplay to Yasuo is "hope your jungler is not dumb and ganks Yasuo early to shut him down and end the game early enough because a Yasuo with just 3 items can start outdueling most of your team and split pushing."

I'm sick of all these melee and AD champs being given engage ranges and effective threat rangers as long as or longer than some of the short/mid ranged mages (like Annie, Malz, Swain) while having more survival, mobility, burst, and sustained DPS.

And what's more aggravating of Yasuo compared to Zed is not only that he does ridiculous damage with plenty of ways to avoid retaliation like Zed, but unlike Zed he even gets CC on his kit to boot.

Also, Malz with ult is not enough to kill a Yasuo who engages with his shield up. In the time you cast Q to follow up by ult he can dash to dodge the Q and only eat the ult stun which alongside E won't be anywhere enar enough damage to kill him before he kills you. You need a full WEQ combo followed by ult to threaten a kill and the Q will realistically never hit at the same time you ult which means he has an easy time dodging it and negating most of your damage.

It also doesn't help the voidlings are made of paper and die by a single Q (Zed also laughes at Malzahar since he has E up every time for when you put voidlings up and you lose all wavepushing pressure in that match up). I can't believe why voidlings haven't been given the Zyra or Heimerdinger minion treatment.

Even Yorick's ghouls don't get one shot that easily by a single ability.

Why are you assuming I HAVE to duel him 1v1 in this game? Besides I can override Malzahar's weakeness just by getting predator/sceptre/protobelt.

Crescent DuskMar 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2019-03-05T04:44:42.317+0000)

Why are you assuming I HAVE to duel him 1v1 in this game? Besides I can override Malzahar's weakeness just by getting predator/sceptre/protobelt.

Because it's not a 1v1, he can virtually force an engagement with his dash if you so much as try to auto the minion, so if he doesn't win by dueling he wins by starving you of CS through zoning you out.

Craft ZeppelinMar 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=0000000000000000000100010000,timestamp=2019-03-05T04:53:00.296+0000)

Because it's not a 1v1, he can virtually force an engagement with his dash if you so much as try to auto the minion, so if he doesn't win by dueling he wins by starving you of CS through zoning you out.

And what makes you think I will allow him to zone me? If Yasuo is in a position to zone, he is in front of my tower. i can literally just flash and ult him and call my jungler. And what makes you think I will NOT stack more than one doran + lost chapter to make my mana nigh infinite?

My highest winrate matchup using Malzahar is literally Yasuo.

Crescent DuskMar 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=00000000000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-05T05:25:26.646+0000)

And what makes you think I will allow him to zone me? If Yasuo is in a position to zone, he is in front of my tower. i can literally just flash and ult him and call my jungler. And what makes you think I will NOT stack more than one doran + lost chapter to make my mana nigh infinite?

My highest winrate matchup using Malzahar is literally Yasuo.

Because the Yasuo has a semblance of wave manipulation and doesn't just allow you to freeze a wave at tower?

I'm glad you're so privileged to have junglers at your back and call, though.

The point is you won't even get to Doran's or Last Chapter if he plays aggressively from the get go and abuses your early high mana costs and high E cooldown (plus diligently kills the voidlings every single time to prevent you from farming efficiently).

Hayaishi2Mar 4, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wínters Dawn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-04T04:36:38.199+0000)

I never thought yas took skill

Tbh he used to. Then conqueror came in.

The Spicy CritMar 4, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wínters Dawn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yFu72jmN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-04T04:36:38.199+0000)

I never thought yas took skill

I got 1 million on Yasuo and i agree. Not on this acc tho, but on my all accs combined, so that shouldn't matter, but as someone with 1k+ games on him, yeah, you just gotta get used to playing him and that's it.

5050BSMar 4, 201930 votes

Dont for get Jax and AP Shyvana

ﬂooMar 4, 201910 votes

Ap shyv is not nearly as much of a threat as the others, if you don't int early.

FSRERMar 4, 20194 votes

You know....jax used to be balanced cause he fell of mid and late game (except when only splitpushing but then again 1v3 him and he died) but now with spear, titanic etc jax will do damage but wont die....

SucctionMar 4, 201927 votes

The recent Zed changes actually made him more skill based, because they effectively reduced all non-Q damage, meaning he's less reliable and more reliant on thin skillshots.

Riven is easy now due to DD + Conq making her outheal entire teams. Vayne is currently easy because she's ranged Akali + Yi atm, who comes online and starts 1v5ing at 2 items.

Not sure if I'd call Yasuo easy, but he definitely has seemed overtuned for some time now.

ORB1TSMar 4, 20196 votes

{quoted}

The recent Zed changes actually made him more skill based, because they effectively reduced all non-Q damage, meaning he's less reliable and more reliant on thin skillshots.

Riven is easy now due to DD + Conq making her outheal entire teams. Vayne is currently easy because she's ranged Akali + Yi atm, who comes online and starts 1v5ing at 2 items.

Not sure if I'd call Yasuo easy, but he definitely has seemed overtuned for some time now.

Agreed (coming from a yas and zed main)

0opsRewindMar 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

The recent Zed changes actually made him more skill based, because they effectively reduced all non-Q damage, meaning he's less reliable and more reliant on thin skillshots.

Riven is easy now due to DD + Conq making her outheal entire teams. Vayne is currently easy because she's ranged Akali + Yi atm, who comes online and starts 1v5ing at 2 items.

Not sure if I'd call Yasuo easy, but he definitely has seemed overtuned for some time now.

akali is sub 40 wr but ranged yi makes sense

TotalJerkMar 4, 20192 votes

You're missing the point if you're bringing out winrates. What they are saying is that Vayne in her current state combines the innate strengths of both champions.

SucctionMar 5, 20193 votes

{quoted}

akali is sub 40 wr but ranged yi makes sense

I mentioned Akali because of her permanent stealth

Sir SaltarinMar 4, 20193 votes

Yes, Zed changes in terms of design are good.

But in terms of numbers it was a huge buff.

The TrentMar 4, 201917 votes

No champion in league "takes skill." This isn't a fighting game like smash where it takes months to get advanced combos down and then all of a sudden there's a new combo found right around the corner. This is league where the hardest thing to learn is animation canceling when it comes to "skill" on an individual champion. The thing that takes skill in league is map awareness, map control, and just overall decision making. Don't get it twisted. None of the champions you listed ever took skill, they just have a higher "skill" cap allowing them to do more stupid things than other champions. It takes like a week to learn riven combos with animation cancels if you put the same effort a smash player puts into learning their combos. If anything annie/yi take more skill because it's more widespread how you're supposed to play against them. Meanwhile people struggle to understand that to counter yasuo you need to push him in and stay out of minions and to counter riven you just need to get a feel for her cooldowns (which is why I reccomend playing riven to learn how to play vs riven). So yeah if anything you have a major advantage while playing Riven or Yasuo compared to annie or yi, therefore making them take less skill in a way. A champion taking "skill" is never an excuse for them to be strong. You can already see that every champion that takes "skill" has unfair advantages for whatever reason. They get more in their kit because... they have to press more buttons? Imo Riven, Yas, Vayne and Zed shouldn't be allowed to have advantages because they "take skill." All that really means is they're champions everyone is going to play until they master them within a weak because they're easy to stomp solo que with.

MullaousMar 4, 20193 votes

We'll all be holding our breath waiting for u to hit rank 1 i'm sure. Since clearly you've mastered this skilless game.

Handy Sandy Mar 4, 20198 votes

that's not what they're saying. game knowledge is 99% of the game, the other 1% is pressing QWER. The reason why some champions are harder than others isn't because of mechanics, it's because ganking bot with lee sin is different than how rek'sai does it either with pathing, gapclosers, etc. Neither are particularly hard, but knowing how to do it in the first place is not something everyone knows. As someone who sucks with the easiest midlane champion annie, applying her context in any game is much more difficult for me, not because her mechanics are hard but because I can't apply her to

kargishMar 4, 20198 votes

That is not what he said. He said mastering a champion's kit requires very little effort, and that's completely true, but learning proper macro gameplay is what's hard. Once you master that, however, you can practically pick up any champion and climb with them.

This is why a lot of challengers can swap between meta champions very quickly.

MullaousMar 5, 20192 votes

That isn't remotely true. Plat is littered with people who have mastered their champions kit but have no idea how to play the macro of the game. And that is top 5-7%. The vast majority of people playing this game have huge room for improvement on the champs they play, because there is a lot of skill and nuances to them. Challengers don't just whimsically swap to whatever the new OP champ is, they knew how they worked and had experience with them from before because they've played fking tons of games with and against them. And they practice with them before they start spamming games as them.

There are champs that are less micro intensive that allow you to focus more on using your macro to win games, but there is literally no comparing a gold riven to a diamond one.

To give you an idea of how much skill gap there can be between players on certain champs. Watch D1 Redmercy being coached by LL Stylish back in I think S7. There was so much shit he didn't know about zed despite having damned near gotten masters with him as his pocket pick.

The TrentMar 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

We'll all be holding our breath waiting for u to hit rank 1 i'm sure. Since clearly you've mastered this skilless game.

Did you miss the part where I literally said that the skill in this game comes from map awareness, map control and overall decision making? Or are you the type of person to read the first few sentences until you see something you can hate on? There's a reason a challenger player can climb from iron to diamond in no time playing something like ap shaco, and it's not because they're a godlike shaco. It'll take you months to learn all the map control strategies in league... meanwhile how long does it take you to learn how to animation cancel on riven? A week? Like I said, champions don't take skill. This isn't a skillless game. You're clearly just a pessimist.

MullaousMar 5, 20191 votes

Wtf are you talking about? I haven't been refering to map awareness, map control, or overall decision making at all. You don't know how poorly gold players play their characters and how much better you could play them with skill because you don't play against decent players. Challenger players also don't play ap shaco to climb lol... they play OP shit pretty much exclusively. But regardless, it's not really worth arguing with u since you obviously don't get what I'm trying to say because you have no frame of reference, so w/e.

The TrentMar 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wtf are you talking about? I haven't been refering to map awareness, map control, or overall decision making at all. You don't know how poorly gold players play their characters and how much better you could play them with skill because you don't play against decent players. Challenger players also don't play ap shaco to climb lol... they play OP shit pretty much exclusively. But regardless, it's not really worth arguing with u since you obviously don't get what I'm trying to say because you have no frame of reference, so w/e.

Dude you literally gave me a one sentence reply that was nothing but making fun of me. Are you sure you're even responding to the right person? You didn't "refer" anything. You literally just said that the game was skillless after I said it took skill in an atempt to make fun of me. I literally watched someone play ap shaco to diamond not that long ago, that's why I said that... Like I said, you're clearly a pessimist. From the looks of it you're just going around this thread looking for people to disagree with and pick arguments with. I seriously wish we could block people on the boards.

ORB1TSMar 4, 20196 votes

Zed still takes skill. These recent changes to zed where a buff to his early game and a Nerf to his late and the w range needed to be increased cause it felt clunky playing on him when it wasn't and people still seem to forget that this ONE item item 3157 counter's zed COMPLETELY.

MiracleMorg94Mar 4, 201915 votes

Zhonyas is barely a counter anymore, if that. Zed can ult almost three times in the timespan that the active is down, thanks to Riot nerfing the CDR on it because all the Zed mains cried about it. Plus the armor was nerfed a shit ton too so it doesn't do shit against him.

He can just kill you right after and then you're right back where you started when you come back to lane- he has ult up again, Zhonyas is down and you can't do shit.

Tsk.

Rathar DashingMar 4, 20196 votes

Conq is mostly to blame for at least a few of the currently OP champions. It should never have been released as-is.

MandarillMar 4, 20194 votes

Riven Mains: i learn combo, i press buttons, i build item 3161 item 3812 , after that me win ez, if lose just blame jungler

Me, someone who has to play against fraudulent champions like Riven: I need to watch her closely, manage distance and choose my trades wisely, and if she manages to get ahead there's not much I can do. Her kit is filled with bullshit like dashes on dashes and a shield that lets her trade for free so the only way I can get damage on her is if I somehow manage to bait out her abilities ahead of time. Even then I have a very short window to capitalize, somewhere close to around 5-6s at most. I'll probably need to build armor early to mitigate her damage too. I'd better make sure wards are down just in case her jungler comes because if he does and I don't immediately back off I'm dead and this lane is over.

RainXBladeMar 5, 20195 votes

I don't really like Riven as much as the next guy, but at least it's not someone like Jax that can just womp you with his lantern to oblivion after 2 items.

huhndogMar 5, 20191 votes

lul just play Rumble and your good to go. As long as you play safe against riven, her players will ALWAYS try to dive to get their first kill. You dont have to overthink about fighting against her. Otherwise your psyching yourself out

94372148Mar 4, 20193 votes

Should add RekSai to that list

Anchorit WracajMar 4, 20192 votes

You forgot Jax,and Sylas..Sylas is getting BUFFS in 9.5.He will be the most broken champ,definetly,say hello to 80% ban rate,with 55% win rate.

WublerdudeMar 4, 20192 votes

I cant agree with the jax... Mainly because I perma ban him every game so Idk if hes still op, he was 8 months ago before I started banning him every game :P

BlueSmurf2018Mar 5, 20192 votes

Riven was never hard to begin with

Meep ManMar 5, 20191 votes

Nah. People have always complained about Zed one-shots. Donno what you're talking about there. Do you not remember?

"Zed is unbalanced! If Im forced to buy a item 3157 or die with little interaction, it's poor design!"

That was Season 4 Boards.

Craft ZeppelinMar 5, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Nah. People have always complained about Zed one-shots. Donno what you're talking about there. Do you not remember?

"Zed is unbalanced! If Im forced to buy a or die with little interaction, it's poor design!"

That was Season 4 Boards.

People bought hourglass back then and it had less cooldowns. Zed also did not have lethality or any bogus stats backing him with just 1100g. People back then, same to leblanc were complaining how are they virtually ungankable.

Then Zed was hit by the W nerf.