So malzahar voidlings are "reworked"

Craft Zeppelin··89 votes·14,547 views

And of course its a heavy nerf without compensation. Of course its clueless rickless. Voidling die with one champ AA, does not gain movementspeed. 150 cast range. NO power added to QE or even R, and you only gains stacks after you cast spells.

What happened to the "we will reward mid malz" part? You just nerfed the whole entire champion as a whole. How the heck im supposed to use this champion anymore? His ult bot status is magnified since everything is nerfed aside from his busted passive you should remove.

139 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir37 votes

I believe (not 100% sure, but these are some of the things we've been talking about) in an upcoming PBE update there are buffs along the lines of E AP ratio increase and R having the beam have a flat damage component that occupies most of the AP ratio of the spell. The intention behind such changes are to reduce total power budget of W and increase power elsewhere in the kit.

Apologies for the continued silence on the state of Malzahar at the moment. You're not unheard.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

I believe (not 100% sure, but these are some of the things we've been talking about) in an upcoming PBE update there are buffs along the lines of E AP ratio increase and R having the beam have a flat damage component that occupies most of the AP ratio of the spell. The intention behind such changes are to reduce total power budget of W and increase power elsewhere in the kit.

Apologies for the continued silence on the state of Malzahar at the moment. You're not unheard.

Just to confirm or dash all future hopes since knowing is better than waiting forever in agony:

What are the chances of the Malz rework being fully reverted? Because I would rather like to be able to use my second favorite champion again.

Skyroar2 votes

{quoted}

Just to confirm or dash all future hopes since knowing is better than waiting forever in agony:

What are the chances of the Malz rework being fully reverted? Because I would rather like to be able to use my second favorite champion again.

0 chances. Old Malz had a lot of problems, which they tried (and somewhat succeeded) to fix. The problem is that new Malz brings a whole lot of new problems because of his W's and his passive's power budget.

What we're getting, however, is somewhat of a partial revert. The new W is mechanically closer to Malz's old passive (kind of like a middleground between the new and the old), and some of its power is being taken away in favor of his other spells, which used to be stronger pre-rework.

Beacon Academy2 votes

"Old Malz had a lot of problems"

I love how this statement comes up as a justification for why he was changed only after he got reworked when prior to the rework he got one outright nerf in 5-6 years and only buffs or tweaks before that.

Craft Zeppelin2 votes

{quoted}

I believe (not 100% sure, but these are some of the things we've been talking about) in an upcoming PBE update there are buffs along the lines of E AP ratio increase and R having the beam have a flat damage component that occupies most of the AP ratio of the spell. The intention behind such changes are to reduce total power budget of W and increase power elsewhere in the kit.

Apologies for the continued silence on the state of Malzahar at the moment. You're not unheard.

Thank GOD repertoir for informing us. I was about to explode over the weekend. R having flat damage and ratios again is a BIG change. Its a good starting point which stops making malz feel like a support.

Wukong Airlines18 votes

As a compensation we want " Sandstorm Malzahar" skin with Sand effects! gimme gimme

Dreadlocks2 votes

If you're going to give malzahar players some light, how about us old Rengar players? Since you designed the rework yourself... Whats your plans with him? I got along with the rework a little in the begining, but as an old Rengar 1 Trick this 1 doesn't even compare.. Are there any plans to fix him, or is he gana be stuck in the gutter like azir and kalista were for a long time?

Lucian Waifu2 votes

{quoted}

I believe (not 100% sure, but these are some of the things we've been talking about) in an upcoming PBE update there are buffs along the lines of E AP ratio increase and R having the beam have a flat damage component that occupies most of the AP ratio of the spell. The intention behind such changes are to reduce total power budget of W and increase power elsewhere in the kit.

Apologies for the continued silence on the state of Malzahar at the moment. You're not unheard.

Why don't you rework Malz into making his passive null zone where after you cast x spells it makes a null zone beneath an enemy affected by malefic visions, keep his Q, change his W to nether grasp with a shorter suppression time and lower base damage and ratio than his original nether grasp (before the remake), keep his E, and finally make his R summon an "army" of voidlings that scales with level in his R, like 4/6/8 voidlings.

That way he would be much more fun to play, would make himself less vulnerable because he won't have to root himself with his ult and do his job, it would keep his voidlings powerful but in balance by moving them to his R, and keep his identity as a champion while also making him feel a bit more like his old kit.

Nilok33 votes

What is the point of giving them HP if they get instagibbed anyways? They have as much HP as original Malzahar's level 1 Voidlings at level 18. Also, Malzahar's Voidling no longer get their speed boost, which they needed in order to survive longer than a second. So great, you get to spawn a pair of Voidling at melee range while the enemy ADC just kills them.

Now, I can see what they were trying to do with making them so easy to kill because they dropped the cost and cooldown to just 40/60 and 8 seconds. This allows Malzahar to spam Voidlings every 4.8 seconds. This is not healthy or good champion design. This turned Malzahar, who was able to originally spawn a few, elite, minions, to a minion spamming idiot.

This is honestly a slap in the face for Malzahar players and I seriously question what the rework team is doing, and if they are getting payed for how long they can draw out this train wreck.

They need to return to square one and remember why people liked to play original Malzahar instead of abuse his gameplay. Turn this rework concept into a new Champion is they love it that much.

Xilixer12 votes

most of us liked old malz cuz he was a big F U. to Zed , Ahri , MasterYi , Yasuo , Tryndamere , Nocturne , Fizz

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Old Malz wasn't even a problem to Ahri if she played properly. At worst it's a forced QSS buy.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

Most of the time you got by his Ult by charming at the right moment, but there were always the "GET DOWN MR. PRESIDENT!!" moments from Voidlings.

inplane4 votes

{quoted}

most of us liked old malz cuz he was a big F U. to Zed , Ahri , MasterYi , Yasuo , Tryndamere , Nocturne , Fizz

And he is the much needed middle finger towards the unending mobility creep that is happening to this game. This game is lacking any reliable CC lockdown skills since many of them are being reworked.

Serika Zero4 votes

everyone that "counters" the mobility via point and click CC is usually nerfed when they get semi popular.

YumaS2Astral4 votes

It is important to remember that immobile champions get as countered by point and click CC than mobile champions. If anything, they get countered harder.

flibitydoo6 votes

if the enemy adc just kills them, then perhaps the change did work

there's now a big reason NOT to send malz botlane against an adc.

Nilok9 votes

Great, so the fix against early game Malzahar vs an ADC, is make him bad against ADCs the whole game. /s [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Paroe20 votes

{quoted}

if the enemy adc just kills them, then perhaps the change did work

there's now a big reason NOT to send malz botlane against an adc.

theres no reason to use malzahar ANYWHERE. You realize the reason malzahar even went support was because he lacked the ability to kill on his own, right? He COULD do damage, but it took a lot of poking and a lot of enemy mistakes and a LOT of mana to kill on his own. His lack of lethality - the ability to kill - is what made him such a stellar support. Couple that with the fact that his ult is a long "Forced 1v2" and no longer relies on AP to be useful, you get someone who has been tailored for the support role as a "harass support".

What malzahar NEEDS is ALL OF HIS NERFS reverted and to be using the current live version of his W. He also needs a new passive that isnt either blatantly OP or one of the worst defensive passives in the game.

What this means is; Basic attack range nerf reverted Move speed nerf reverted Voidlings no longer lose movement speed Voidlings enrage properly
Voidlings have 3 hits to them and empowered auto attacks count as one hit Voidlings no longer have an internal cooldown between charges Voidlings no longer have 50% reduced damage against monsters

ALL of those things need to be done before malzahar can even remotely be viable. The ENTIRE "MALZAHAR OP OP OP OP!!!!!" thing comes from malzahar being an objective focused jungler in an objective intense meta. He was scary and safe - but his ganks were terrible pre-6 and even post 6 he was just a kill enabler. People just hyper focused because "OMG LEVEL 2 DRAGON!!! OP OP OP!!!!" =/

Nilok14 votes

With everything you laid out, the only options really are revert or rework.

Currently, my money and time are only going to go to the former.

Elikain4 votes

It's going to be neither. Since there will be more Malzahar changes in the next week.

Good thing this entire thread probably lacks the context RecklessAbandon clearly tweeted about after posting these changes but the boards as usual, are already setting off dumpster fires while working with half of the information...

ForeverLaxx9 votes

Why should we bother following tweets and reddit posts when Riot has their own official boards to relay information about their own damn game on? You want to take your jab at "the boards" but this is where information should be posted. I'm not going to follow a tool to maybe catch a random update blurb just because Riot wants their own boards to die.

Elikain3 votes

I've gotten this information from Surrender at 20 which is basically the only site you should be looking for where every bit of League news is condensed in one place because i, like you, only care about the boards and no other social outlet.

Riot does post here (as well as reddit because that's where people are the most) and the boards probably don't support twitter feeds. So this is why some bits of information or context can go unnoticed, if a Rioter posts after the changes have been made to something.

Not reading Surrender at 20 is no excuse for you to be lazy.

ForeverLaxx14 votes

"Not reading a third-party website is no excuse."

Um. Yes. It is. Never before, in any game I played, did the developers expect their playerbase to go searching on third-party sites for information. Never before did other developers actually link to third-party or fan-sites for information they had no excuse for being absent on their own official boards.

Obscure information? Loot drop tables? Probabilities? Theory-crafting? Sure, all of those should be on third-party sites because they tend to have no real bearing on the game's playability or updates. But direct changes to the game? Patch notes? Feedback threads referencing the changes created by the developer in charge of the changes? These belong on the boards, and by and large, most of these kinds of updates are finding themselves on Reddit and various other third-party websites.

I'm not going on an egg hunt for official update information about a game that should be on said game's official boards. That's what the boards are for. I do not care if Surrender at 20 is an aggregate site dedicated to amassing scattered bits of information into a single localized place -- that single localized place should be the official boards.

Elikain2 votes

Again, the only site you should be looking at the condensed information is Surr at 20. It doesn't take any time to look through all the changes, updates, announcements (which is exactly the same information you get here but it gets scattered everywhere because not all people are on boards).

Riot is not going to post everything here because it's more convenient for you. For other people, subreddit is a lot more popular and populated among League players and the same information is being posted on both sides (but the discussions over various social outlets don't port to others). Outside of some Rioters linking the discussion or bringing it here to us, you're not going to see Rioters rushing to copy-paste everything from one outlet to every other outlet.

Don't be lazy. It's not even an easter egg hunt, it's one click away from you. If you don't want to read that information that's provided, don't bother trying to start half-assed discussions about changes you only have partial information from. Don't add to shitposting.

macromite14 votes

no he has a point. riot has a forum, riot should use the forum.

Elikain1 votes

Never said he didn't have a point. But he's approaching this issue from his point of convenience, ignoring the fact that what's convenient for him might not be convenient for other people. And what he's proposing is that Riot should forcefully condense all of the information on their boards in order to force people to use them.

And to that i say Riot did the only thing that's easier and that was to be flexible and post on more than one location. As i've said, Rioters aren't going to run from board to board, copy-pasting the discussions so that everyone can see them. If it's a discussion on reddit, it's gonna be on reddit. If it's a discussion here, it's going to be here. More or less, Rioters can share the links on each site about the venue of the said discussions and who wants to participate, can do so freely. Even so, Rioters sometimes do come and answer some of the threads here, even if there are mirror threads on reddit.

What's even more astounding is that even if Surrender at 20 is a third-party site, it's very well integrated into the LoL community, even more so than reddit. Moobeat and the crew are well known among Rioters. So you only actually need to visit one place for all the information (Surrender at 20) and check back if any of the links to specific discussions are had here, to participate on your only medium of choice.

I came here with the right information from RB's twitter post and i don't use twitter. So if i could inform myself properly before jumping to any conclusions with minimal hastle, i don't see what's the excuse for the rest of the people to properly inform themselves too. Patch notes are well in the new client for our convenience and how many people still don't read them? That's case in point for "if all the info about LoL was here, everyone would read it" argument because they still wouldn't.

This isn't an argument about Riot not needing to make boards into a hub for all LoL related information. But it isn't a priority as there are other alternatives who do a very good job at that. And that means Riot doesn't have to rush to fix this because they sure as hell have more pressing matters to attend to - like making sure the new client is stable and working for everyone and delivering new features for it. Once that bulk of the work has been done, Riot will reevaluate their priorities as any other company does.

macromite7 votes

This isn't an argument about Riot not needing to make boards into a hub for all LoL related information

yes it is, what did you think it was?

Nilok6 votes

I've read that, and I can already see the path they are moving in and I don't want to see another Ryze rework. Malzahar was one of the most stable champions in League until this rework.

Elikain1 votes

Malzahar was one of the most stable champions in League until this rework.

This is incorrect on so many levels that i don't even want to start a discussion about it.

Nilok5 votes

Well, you claimed I was wrong, so I decided to verify my claim with some research and data.

Changes Prior to Rework 6.2 bugfix 5.24 Null Zone damage reduced from 4/8% to 4/6% 4.8 Global ultimate cost reduction 150 to 100 4.5 Global armor adjustment, new effect Voidling targeting 4.1 Prevents enemies triggered friendly movement during ult (They say this is a "new effect" but it was a bug) 3.1 bug fix 3.6 cost of Call of the Void and Null Zone reduced by 20 at max rank

It isn't until Season 1 that Malzahar had any major changes until the rework.

So, since Season 1, we have had three bug fixes, two global adjustments, and three changes.

So three changes since Season 1 and you claim he wasn't one of the most stable stable champions in the game? How many, if any have been as stable as Malzahar over that amount of time?

Elikain1 votes

So you're basing your argument on how many buffs/nerfs Malzahar had before his update? If that's the case, refer to Irelia who hasn't had changes for 3 years and that didn't stop people from complaining she is OP.

And no, that meme was dead a long time ago. So people weren't actually kidding about that.

Nilok5 votes

No, memes fade, they don't die unless they are killed, which is why anti-memes were developed like Godwin's Law.

Ironically, Irelia has hovered around 50-52% winrate and rarely breaking 53%. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/irelia

Thank you, you found one other example of a stable champion. Going through the list, she has had four different patches and seven changes over the years were she was changed after season 1 not including global champion changes. That is very close to Malzahar's original three changes after season 1.

Elikain1 votes

Again, people weren't joking about Irelia. They were still complaining for the sake of complaining, despite her being quite stable.

Malzahar was not stable. The only thing you're doing here is trying to draw a parallel between both champions by comparing their balance changes frequency. Yorick, prior to his update (and even Urgot), haven't had many changes as well. Does that mean they were in a very stable spot? No, it does not.

Nilok2 votes

Ah yes, Yorick, the champion Riot stated they refused to change until they had a rework for him, hence the term "Yoricked". That is a bit of a strawman argument.

However, I have to ask, do you understand what the word "stable" means?

Autrah Fang2 votes

{quoted}

So great, you get to spawn a pair of Voidling at melee range while the enemy ADC just kills them.

to make it worse: item 3085 exists. so any and all voidlings die to one auto attack! woo! don't even need to use mana. just need to keep auto attacking Malzahar and his W just ceases to exist.

Craft Zeppelin15 votes

And yes, jungle malzahar is not a thing anymore. RIP!

TotalJerk14 votes

Why is nobody talking about the fact that they completely removed the AD ratio? They promised they wouldn't kill AD Malzahar when the rework happened, but they've basically just deleted him with this change.

RainbowIcee7 votes

Maybe it's just me but i don't think there should be more time and resource placed on champions that were already "reworked" and then "tweaked" like malzahar has been. if it didn't work it didn't work and they should just change it back. Spend time and resource on other champions that need it or could at least use it. [zombie-brand-clap]

TotalJerk2 votes

With your attitude, they would've just reverted Viktor, Soraka, Veigar, and Zilean.

RainbowIcee1 votes

I don't see anyone really complaining about zilean, he's hard to master but his stun is really really really strong he has high potential. As for soraka she works she's pretty good they just shifted her lane power to team power/healing. But things like for example Ryze and Rengar and now malzahar is getting another tweak after having a small rework and previous tweaking again he's being looked at. There's many other champions that need tweaking and changes and they keep going back to this one. If it made this worse that they constantly have to be in the champions toes then maybe they should just change it back? Look at caitlyn massive success she is oppressive though with her traps but over all it's pretty damn good. They're not constantly going back to revise her so that's good. But now look at kog maw he was constantly being tweaked and nerfed and what not until they just got tired and were like welp let's just revert him.

TotalJerk2 votes

The first few months after those reworks people would whine "just revert it already" every time they hit the patch notes.

SociopathFriend2 votes

everything is nerfed aside from his busted passive you should remove.

The passive is not that bad, particularly not once the CD was nerfed. Malz's current problem was, is, and will continue to be how he can pop up voidlings on command. Riot stated long ago that minion-champions were bitches to balance (paraphrasing of course) and Malz plus Ivern have only cemented that truth in place.

Xilixer9 votes

the problem is that they made malzahar into a minion champ instead of the anti assassin champ that he was.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Some could argue the health of his Anti-assassin side before the rework (coming from someone who played him a lot back then).

Paroe6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5etkz0Nw,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-05-06T08:05:07.980+0000)

Some could argue the health of his Anti-assassin side before the rework (coming from someone who played him a lot back then).

THe people who argue the health of him being an anti assassin are champions who were either all-ins (other assassins, melee burst champs, etc) or squishies who would be assassinated (by an assassin). Most of those people only see "100-0 NO COUNTERPLAY MAGE WTFBBQSAUCETREEFROG" and not "Oh i just got assassinated by an AP assassin" like they should be, because malzahar is like nasus and pre-reworks sona. He had a surface playstyle that riot and the people who complained never got past. That was the real problem, i think, and what made them consider malzahar for a rework in the first place. Beyond their "change for the sake of change" policy, they never get below the surface and see a champion for what they really are. When they DO manage to get identities right you get great reworks like poppy and warwick. Hell warwick and poppy werent even normal reworks for riot; They actually RESPECTED the original designs intents, unlike almost ALL other reworks riot has been doing ever since sion.

Which brings me to another problem. Riots lack of respect for their previous designs and choices. We should have traditional sion, traditional poppy, traditional warwick. But because riot doesnt respect their past and bumble along within their own "yes space" of people who have worked together for so long and therefore agree with each other they dont even acknowledge their own mistakes most of the time and scramble to fix massive problems by creating EVEN MORE MASSIVE problems. Case and point; malzahar. More nerfs since his rework than he had changes since release pre-rework. Thats more nerfs in a YEAR or so than he had IN THREE. Swain was much the same way, but thankfully didnt get hit to hard.


Also to clarify about traditional skins; traditional skins are homages to what relaunched champions were in the past. Theyre skins that look similar to their past self, and have their old VO when applicable. Traditional sion right now is a custom skin which uses a default skin edit someone made in about an hour, and the old sion voice files for example. Riot could probably bang out a legitimate traditional sion in a couple days, or even a month if they make it someones pet project. The same applies to almost every other relaunched champion.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

Poppy was a complete Re-do from the ground up, and Warwick just needed his theme solidified, thematically. Neither of them can be compared to Malzahar's gameplay update, because both of them had separate intents. If you're saying that Malz needs a Warwick level update, most certainly, but not the other way around.

Moving on to the rest, I don't care what people complained about. Even as someone who played Malzahar, he had some design problems. Little to no room for outplay, his first back for some AP let him easily push waves with E, and pretty much stopped an entire class of Champion with a click and point nuke. The most fun for myself, and sometimes my opponent, was when I accidentally summoned a Voidling that saved my life, a "Get down Mr President" though yes, nuking people with click and point was fun for me

Now, let's move on to "original design intent". Just because something was there first, doesn't mean it's the immediate right choice, especially when it has problems. Riot has made plenty mistakes in "Original design" like Vlad before his Mage update, which ended up creating a champion that was either over oppressive or just dreadful.

You also specify two different notions of "original design" when you talk about the champions reworks, while still using two separate comparisons one shouldn't make. Poppy's original design was kept from a Thematic standpoint, which fit into her gameplay. You then use that as a comparison as it should be with Malzahar, who stayed the same thematically, and only got changed in a gameplay sense. Two very different things being compared here, with unfair standards applied to one.

I'm gonna say this, and I know this is gonna be hard to hear, but that's absolute bullshit. Riot doesn't have a respect for previous design choices, because they have grown in the quality of their content, and see the older things they made a long time ago as a stepping stone, but one that has not aged well at all. They are perfectly fine ditching what they once made, in favor for a newer better version of the same thing, something they can say "I'm proud of this" instead of "Oh, well that was a long time ago".

Traditional skins for Poppy, Sion, and Warwick is one of the dumbest requests I've heard from people, because there is absolutely nothing worth keeping from those older versions. Old Sion was a meme, Old Poppy was a nightmare AND a meme, and Old Warwick IS THE EXACT SAME AS NEW WARWICK. They respect the past, but they don't oogle at it and put it up on a stand. They take it off the shelf, put it in Storage, and put out the newer version of it that they put more work into than the old one. (Ex. Lollipoppy original face on the Lollipop).

Aside from the Rant of that... you talk about a "yes space", which irks me for two reasons. One being, you act like just because people agree with Riot, they are somehow linked to an inherent bias, so their opinions should be worth less. Second being, that the people who are in the "No group" are inherently right, and can no way be wrong. Yes, Riot ignores what people wants, but sometimes what people want is not what Riot has in planned.

Riot did not want Malzahar to be so click and point nukey, yet people argue that's what they want. I've seen this a lot, like people complaining about Leblanc's delay times, when Riot's specific mentions are about giving people more time to react. This is Riot ignoring people who want to keep the unhealthy aspects of a champion, because that is what they are accustomed too, and have assigned to be the original design for the champion.

Riot ignoring people is not wrong. People play what they want, and like what they play for a reason, and they don't want to see that changed. But those are people we shouldn't listen to, the people who want insta-gib Leblanc, insta-gib Rengar and for no reason other than "This is how the champion has always been!". It's not an objective look on their own champions and the problems that plague them.

So yes, Malzahar has gotten more nerfs in one year than he has three years prior, but that doesn't mean that Old Malzahar was spotless. He had problems, and the rework has been trying to tackle those problems, but it's been a trial. There is no reason to stop doing something because it's challenging, especially when it's on a good path from intentions.

/midnight rant over

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5etkz0Nw,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-06T10:30:33.910+0000)

Snip /midnight rant over

Okay so a couple things. "Relaunch" is a VGU - a visual and gameplay update. It still includes a rework, but yes youre right that they ARE very different. for clarity however i use "rework".

Malzahar, in the first place, didnt need the scope of the changes he got. He was FAR more balanced PRE-REWORK. His niche was anti-assassin; he was the ONLY successful anti-assassin in the game. Now hes a support because its very hard for him to kill people on his own. His problems pre-rework were a relatively useless W, which could have been replaced with a skill shot or an active voiding on a charge system, and very little incentive to interact. Hint hint by the way, AHRI also has that same problem. Little reason to interact except to get a kill.

Original design intent and respect for past concepts refers to "Do we modernize or bastardize a champion." Poppy? She functions the SAME WAY as she did pre-rework; dash in, smack someone, kill them or walk out. She was modernized, and her new kit heavily respected her past kit. POPPY WAS GIVEN CHANGES THAT SHE NEEDED. Warwick is the same; he was modernized. Thats why those reworks turned out so good. THEY DIDNT ALIENATE THE EXISTING PLAYERBASE. A prime example of "modernize or bastardize" is shen. Shen needed actual scalings and a visual update. However, instead of modernizing, the person in charge of his rework "bastardized" him. He turned shen into WHAT HE WANTED without respecting the original vision; this alienated the existing playerbase and proved very difficult to balance. Shen is still getting severe nerfs NOW.

Traditional skins are homages to the past; theyre quick, easy, and ALL they do is tell players "there used to be something different here, but we made it into something else." Trundle, karma, and sejauni -all VGUS, proto relaunches - HAVE traditional skins. Sion was the first who didnt, and riots excuse was "its to hard" when a myriad of lunchbreak custom skins for it were released in the following weeks. Riot SHOULD respect the past, because its THOSE decisions that made them what they are. For people that were there, people who had fun, people who devoted time and money to something in the past that object of their focus BEING FLAT REMOVED is a slap in the face. I say this as a once-sion main, the pain of losing a champion i enjoyed tremendously would have been greatly asauged is riot even acknowledged the existence of him pre-rework. Its the work of an hour to put together a skin with the old VO. Its the work of a couple days to made a good skin based on the old default. Its the work of maybe a week - a month in a professionals off-time - to put together a traditional skin. And that month is being generous; highschoolers put together traditional sion in a lunch break or two.

Traditional skins for Poppy, Sion, and Warwick is one of the dumbest requests I've heard from people, because there is absolutely nothing worth keeping from those older versions.

The old VO. Some people are very attatched to a champions personality and it feels terrible to lose it, especially if you dont like the new one. You know what traditional sion is? A color swap and some extra armor elements. His old VO. You know what traditional poppy is? A battle dress. Would take more effort to do, but eh. Also her old VO. You know what traditional warwick is? His old VO and his fur being a brighter blue.
It takes a little extra work, but for people who put in time and effort to what they were, that little nod of riot to them feels so nice.

Aside from the Rant of that... you talk about a "yes space", A "yes space" is a workplace full of tightly knit co-workers who worked together for long enough that every idea sounds like a good idea. Its something that happens in MANY groups; after enough time, they naturally agree with each other. Its not refering to the playerbase and white knights or apologists. It has nothing to do with anything BUT riot and their LONG STRING of bad decisions and blatant favoritism.

Riot did not want Malzahar to be so click and point nukey, yet people argue that's what they That isnt what malzahars rework was intended to do. It was intended to make him interact more, and what it did was exacerbate his surface playstyle while destroying his actual playstyle. Malzahar, since his rework, HAS HAD NO REASON TO INTERACT WITH HIS LANER. The subsequent nerfs have only made that problem worse, to the point where malzahar is incapable in the jungle, the midlane, topelane, AND support. Ive said this before, but the reason malzahar is such a good support is almost entirely due to his non-lethal kit. It takes a LOT of effort for malzahar to kill someone of the same skill level - lots of mana, lots of poking, and your voidlings are practically useless now. The changes will make that even worse. He needs damage. He needs ACTUAL burst. He needs to hurt, not tickle. If laindries wasnt in the game, malzahar wouldnt even be useful as an ult bot.

So yes, Malzahar has gotten more nerfs in one year than he has three years prior, but that doesn't mean that Old Malzahar was spotless. He had problems, and the rework has been trying to tackle those problems,

If the new proves to be more problamatic than the old, yes the new is worse health wise than the old. Pre-rework malzahar fit a specific niche; anti assassin. He was an IMMOBILE ASSASSIN, something so many people cant seem to wrap their heads around. He NEEDED people to engage on him in order to assassinate them; its one of the things that made malzahar who he was. Further, malzahars rework was not intended to change that. Anti-assassin was his "below the surface" playstyle - the one generally reserved for people who spent time and effort on him actually realized. You could play malzahar as a farmer, but if you did, you failed fairly often. Thats a win-lane lose-game kinda thing. Malzahars rework was intended to "fix" his surface playstyle. It was meant to make him interact more, but it didnt. IT LITERALLY FAILED AT ITS STATED GOAL.

TL:DR:

  1. Traditional skins help asauge an alienated playerbase and are cool homages to the past.
  2. Malzahars rework was intended to make his surface playstyle interact more, it ended up making him a champion who finds it very hard to kill on his own and therefore a good support.
  3. A yes space in the work enviornment is a close-knit group of coworkers who, due to having worked together for long enough, naturally agree with each other.
  4. Malzahar has recieved more nerfs post-rework than his entire lifetime pre-rework, which means that the rework is an obscene failure.
  5. Malzahar has many more problems now than he did before.
ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Shen was an issue of brickwall gameplay. They kept the things that player wanted, his dash and taunt, and they kept the same gameplay as well. He dashes at people, hits 'em with his Q, and then repeatedly wacks them to death, using his shield (and now Dodge) to delay death. They took out the things that they didn't like, as in his Q, passive, and mini-shield and morphed them into his new passive and his Q.

He plays very much the same, and he has the same aspects of what players wanted. The only real issue is the lack of a thematic connect due to the Floaty Sword, but that's all. Other than LCS balance, that's really what was the only issue of the rework, a unmatched thematic.

And the reason they don't do traditional skins is not because it's too hard. That's never been the reason. The reason behind it, is that there is nothing from the old version that needs be kept. It's not worth the effort to appeal to the few people whose ONLY reason for playing Sion was for cheesy one-liners, especially when it means pushing back other projects that appeal to more players.

The fact that you think it's that easy to just do something shows you have no actual knowledge in how 3D animation and modeling works. It's not as simple to "throw on some armor elements, tint him green and boom done". No, than you just have a shitty chroma. If you're going to make a Traditional skin, you're going to need to go all the way, and that takes up a lot of time and effort from projects that appeal to more people than a small niche.

If you're so caught up on an old champions VO, go modify some files if you want to, but there isn't any reason for Riot to appeal to such a small majority, for the amount of effort. They're not quick or easy, stop being delusional.

No, the new Malz is not worse health wise. Being click and pointed Aids doesn't chunk me for half my health without some additional effort on Malz's part. It takes longer for him to get to "Use E to ez clear wave". Though he still has his Q-E-W-R combo, it takes a while to ramp up to get to result in death, which in teamfights, allows for teammates to save you.

Old Malz did it with much more damage, and much faster, as his ult alone had a 130% scaling with 550 base damage. With Aids serving 330 base and 80% damage scaling, and his Q having an 80% scaling with 300 base. Even being Ulted for 1 second with a full combo, that's a massive amount of damage being done on top of an instant interrupt. That's a lot for the actual amount of effort put into accomplishing that.

No it did not fail. If you want maximum damage on Malzahar, as opposed to what it was before, you need to be able to land multiple Q's, get out a lot of Voidlings, get your E off of course, and use your Ult as a focusing tool. The fact alone that his Ult, his instant disable, doesn't have a huge nuke attached and that he needs to hit multiple Q's means his gameplay has become more interactive. I can dodge a Q, I can kill a voidling before he spawns more.

That's called being interactable. Xerath is interactive because you can dodge all his stuff, but has long range uninteractivity to half-make up for that. Malz is interactive because you can kill his voidlings and you can deny his E more damage by dodging his Q, but in return, Malz get's lower cooldowns on both.

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5etkz0Nw,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-06T22:52:31.211+0000)

Snip

Shen was a space marine type hyper tank. His entire thing was "farm from range or poke from the wave and look for places to ult. When behind, simply split". His rework made his E worse and less reliable, fixed NONE of his problems, and introduced more problems. The visual update was needed and wanted, the rework was not.

The reason they dont do traditional skins is because, and i remember the hoopla this caused because a rioter literally said it, "traditional skins require to many resources". Riot was proven wrong the following weeks when AMATEURS CREATED TRADITIONAL SION IN LESS THAN THREE HOURS. You seem to have this odd idea in your head that a traditional skin needs to have the same animations as they had before and thats simply not the case. a traditional skin is the old VO and maybe 450 skin. They have small visual tweaks and color changes to make them look more like the previous iteration. It takes hours to make a traditional skin. Its at most a day of work or a week of off-work, a month tops if everyone is super busy.

No, the new Malz is not worse health wise. Being click and pointed Aids doesn't chunk me for half my health without some additional effort on Malz's part.

Yes, the new malzahar IS WORSE GAME HEALTH WISE. We know this because of THE SHEER AMOUNT OF NERFS HES HAD. And you know what "doesnt chunk part" actually is? Malzahar is incapable of chunking you unless ahead. He lost over 500+2.0AP base damage. His voidlings are unreliable damage at best, and the nerfs to both their swarm - what made them viable originally in the first place - and their damage output have made them even worse. It takes malzahar A GREAT DEAL MORE SKILL, TIME, AND COMMITMENT TO DO WHAT OTHER CHAMPIONS CAN DO FROM DOUBLE HIS RANGE. You seem to not know what the concept of "an assassin" is or does. Malzahar WAS, PRE REWORK, an immobile assassin. You know what that made him? An anti-assassin. A champion who was a powerful counterpick against vayne, lucian, zed, talon, lee-sin, riven, Leblanc, tryndamere, etc. He had a clearly defined niche, but that niche was below the surface. On the surface he was "a braindead farmer".

People simply could not wrap their heads around the fact pre-rework malzahar was an AP assassin, which leads us to his current situation where riot has created a support champion who is, with the PBE changes, unable to do ANYTHING in ANY lane against ANY meta champion. His damage is to low, his lethality is to low, his commitment is higher than any other mage, his "counterplay" is higher than every other champion in the game, and his ratios are some of the lowest for any "midlane mage". He cant even jungle because riot, after nerfing his voidlings, refuses to un-nerf them. Compound nerfs are riots specialty, they dont look at whats been done in the past and change it when needed to work in the present. They refuse the past even exists and that it has always been this way.

. Xerath is interactive because you can dodge all his stuff, but has long range uninteractivity to half-make up for that. Xerath is an artillery mage and also has fairly low damage compared to assassins and control mages. Control mages can clear waves with one ability or two; 100 or so mana. It takes artillery mages 150+ to clear a wave, and they have lower damage and lower scalings to boot. Listen to yourself. Youre comparing an ASSASSIN to an ARTILLERY MAGE. Apples. To. Oranges.

Further, most other mages either have "sustained damage" (cass, ryze) or "burst damage" (everyone else). Damage over time effects are actually effected by MR per tick and are heavily countered by HP recovery. You ever wonder why that ADC with deaths dance never seems to die? Its because they have lifesteal and crit, so they have what is essentially 30% damage reduction.
DoT abilities used to be very strong for that reason; they werent burst, and therefore needed to be much stronger to compete with burst.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

What you described as Shen is play style, not gameplay. How Shen fights people is still similar to what he had before. He still does what you described, he just doesn't have any "Poke" or ranged farming, which he shouldn't, when he had reliable dueling back then.

Game health and balance are two different things...Viegar was considered balance before he had his Cage reworked, but that doesn't mean getting insta-stunned from ranged and promptly deleted was healthy.

Malzahar shouldn't be an AP assassin. He fits none of the figures for being an assassin other than high damage, with none of the potential outplay other assassins have.

And no, "Too many resources" doesn't mean "Too hard", it means ITS NOT WORTH THE EFFORT. Show me an actual Traditional skin made by amatuers, I can't find one, and we'll see if it's actually a quality based custom skin, or just a copy pasta of his old model posted around his framework for animations. Look at every other Traditional Skin made, and they all are actual quality skins made to represent an old champ but with the newer model format.

That takes a whole lot more effort than what you think it does. If you want a crappy ass skin, go download one, but if Riot is going to make a traditional skin, it's going to be a quality one. Look at Traditional Karma, or Traditional Trundle. Those are actual quality skins that do everything you say, but none of those could be made in 3 hours. You're delusional.

More from Gameplay

More by Craft Zeppelin