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I strongly believe mage items now have problems and lack of variety.

Craft Zeppelin··108 votes·3,823 views

First on, I simply adore mages. I like their playstyle their drawbacks and strengths. But, when I play other classes I find that the itemizations are very unflexible. While ADCs have bork, or IE. Toplaners have hydra or cleaver. A normal mage core build is almost locked into place with no flexibility. As saying, its a huge ball of AP on top of AP without unique stats aside from mana regen. The largest culprits are.

item 3165 item 3135

Another problem is that there is WAY too much cooldown reduction, that it is now a spamfest on top of spamfests. (Like how the hell leblanc can Q and Q and proc mark around 35% cdr? ) Cooldowns were a large factor of actually exploiting an enemys opening and now it is not much of a thing anymore. Actually there is so much CDR that there can even be a option of a item of REDUCING cdr at this point.

Another thing that needs to be looked at is the hextech items. They were supposed to fill up playstyles and niches. Which was a clever idea. was supposed to be amp item like RFC, ruunans, shiv, PD for adcs. ...the problem was that they were TOO niche. I cant recall anyone buying GLP, gunblade is used to exploit damage coverage rather than sustain. Had to admit protobelt is nice though. This has been said on this board several times, please consider creating hextech items for sheen users, mage assassins, and battle mages.

Edit: I hear a lot of players complaining about mages these days. And I also believe that it is valid. Since the builds offer no actual drawback and it is the best of the best of statballiness snowball. We can change this, you know but a few factors must be changed, tweaked and revised and open up new bridges for variety here.

112 Comments

ChaddyFantome27 votes

I just wanna start by saying I applaud you for actually being well reasoned with your post and position. Far too long do i constantly have to dismantle the incessant claims that "mages are weak" and that" AP and mage champions suck right now" or that "AD is better than AP, AP itemisation is weak" , but you had the maturity to not fall to these trappings and instead address a legitimate issue instead.

Its not that AP is weak, far from it. The stat is freakishly potent. The problem is that it is Stale. As it is just a "ball of stats" contest in most cases.

I also admire you maturity in admiting the power of Void Staff and saying there is too much free access to CDR.

To try and discuss the issue tho:.

The problem with Hextech items i feel is they provide to much varying stats. The items are too different. As you said, too niche from one another. The Zeal items all provide the same stats, just with different numbers and effects, so it really was a choice based on what you wanted.

The Hextech items are all too different from one another, with the only thing in common being an offensive actives. Most Champions aren't really gonna choose between the 3. They are gonna find one that they like and ignore the others. item 3030 is only ever considered on champions who normally rush item 3027 item 3146 is only ever bought champions that have hybrid scalings, or have abusable single target spell damage. (and recently, now being used as a pseudo DFG burst proc.

Only item 3152 do i feel is actually bought for its sake, but even it is mostly only gotten on AP bruisers and mobile champions like Fizz, Ekko, Ahri and Rumble, Kennen, etc, as most AP champions like Lux, Xertah, Ziggs , Brand, have basically 0 incentive to get it ever.

I guess Annie and Malzahar for ulti?

Personally, I am of the opinion that Gunblade should be made more of the Phantom Dance of the group , and an actual Thunder hextech item be introduced to "take its place".

The active could be a point and click mark that when popped via a spell would then deal bonus damage. I also feel that Grievous wounds should be moved to this item instead or item 3165 , or rather, Morelonomicon should be reworked and a new item take its place.

I understand the history of why Morelonomican is the AP Grevious wounds item, but given its current role in AP itemization, it simply is tacked on power and doesn't make sense.

Grievous wounds should be something you itemize for specifically, not get as a byproduct of getting an item that you get for Mana and CDR.

I've contemplated perhaps tying it to the item 3136 line, as it would make more sense on that item, and perhaps even make it less unappealing on none dot champions.

Who is Taliyah10 votes

I like liandry for the extra magic penetration and HP. I don't really like the DoT, because it just doesn't synergize with Taliyah. Having another item that comes out of haunted mask that offers magic pen and something else than DoT would be awesome.

kile1472 votes

You would have to make the magic pen not stack with Liandry's, but I like the idea.

Who is Taliyah1 votes

Yeah changing it to a unique passive but with a name so it doesn't hold off the magic pen from sorc.

Votable Jester3 votes

It already is a unique passive "Eyes of Pain"

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

I like liandry for the extra magic penetration and HP. I don't really like the DoT, because it just doesn't synergize with Taliyah.

Um, yes it does lol.

Taliyah is a DPS Magic damage dealer and can apply the Dot repeatedly with her kit.

Having another item that comes out of haunted mask that offers magic pen and something else than DoT would be awesome.

Making a theoretical item 3136 + item 3145 is a little dangerous tho. you would have to handle it very carefully or it would end up being an instant rush and staple on every ap champion.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

I don't think the Hextech items are supposed to compete with each other on the same , that's why they have the diverse array of stats. Rather, their diversity is there to give everyone who wants to build Revolver during the laning phase an option that fits them later.

The issue is that the oppressive strength of Morellonomicon as a 1-item spike makes everything else far less attractive.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think the Hextech items are supposed to compete with each other on the same , that's why they have the diverse array of stats. Rather, their diversity is there to give everyone who wants to build Revolver during the laning phase an option that fits them later.

Riot has stated themselves that hextch line was suposed to be the AP version of the Zeal items.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Source?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Source?

I believe it was GhostCrawler that said it in a stream. Im having trouble finding it tho. Sorry. :/

Sleepy Sona17 votes

[deleted]

DrCyanide3 votes

Only if they don't have a burst mage, assassin, or lots of AD, otherwise item 3157 is required and you get to pick 1 item.

Volphi9 votes

[deleted]

RecessHero6 votes

What game are you playing? Zhonyas is a staple item on about half the AP users in the game. It directly counters so many champions' ults, where much of their power lies.

Volphi5 votes

[deleted]

JESUSSAYSNO3 votes

But this is wrong on so many levels. You fail to understand WHY its good.

You use your spell reel, and then a mage enters a phase of weakness where they are prone to being bursted and killed. Zhonias removes the period of vunrubility on most mages.

The CDR is rarely, if ever, wasted, as most mages don't go above 30% CDR in their core build. I know as a vlad main specifically, I run 10% cdr in runes, and Protobelt+Zhonias+Banshees is basically my core in most games. I'll forgo either banshees or zhonias for a deathcap or void staff if I'm ahead early.

To call it a bad item is absolutely ignorent. The active alone enables me to do so much more in every game I build it on. It's an immunity to damage during the mage's window of weakness, and when it comes off, a lot of mages have their spells up again, securing a second spell reel in a fight.

As vlad specifically, I can drop Plague, intentionally get focused, zhonias to dodge death, R procs, and then I'm back at full health after tanking tons of damage, allowing my team to absolutely destroy my opponents.

Volphi1 votes

[deleted]

JESUSSAYSNO1 votes

I mean you can chose to believe false information if you want. Statistics prove you wrong. I don't see the need to argue with you over it when facts back me up.

BakedLotion2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleepy Sona,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jfLPQtYh,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-05-20T11:46:09.847+0000)

item 3165 item 3135 item 3020 item 3089

Basically you have 2 item slots

And then ADC mains will say "lol ap is so broken it deserves to stay that way. Why should you get any unique actives and passives when u have item 3157 hur durr"

Catastrop9 votes

IMO, our itemization could be so much better if Riot looked into more unique passives and actives on our items. I feel this is why other classes just feel way better to build, because they have a variety of cool stuff attached to their items that makes itemizing fun and intuitive. In comparison, we've only recently started to get cool stuff attached to our items, however most are still not worth it because the items themselves are too niche for general use(yes I'm talking about Hextech items).

deadlychuck7 votes

What's funny, is that if that was actually the intended purpose of the hextech items, then really the itemization changes for mages in the MYMU were on average a reduction in variance of builds.

If you go around nerfing most items for a class, then release a few niche items, in respect to niche builds not niche counter options, then you are going to logically see a reduction in class build variety, because only the MOST optimal items are now consistent. If the variety in items is basically along the lines of "these do the same thing, just worse" as the case tends to be with AP items (now that they have no real complementary stats or unique passives on general items).

Craft Zeppelin3 votes

{quoted}

What's funny, is that if that was actually the intended purpose of the hextech items, then really the itemization changes for mages in the MYMU were on average a reduction in variance of builds.

If you go around nerfing most items for a class, then release a few niche items, in respect to niche builds not niche counter options, then you are going to logically see a reduction in class build variety, because only the MOST optimal items are now consistent. If the variety in items is basically along the lines of "these do the same thing, just worse" as the case tends to be with AP items (now that they have no real complementary stats or unique passives on general items).

Yes, I still remember the mage update uproar after the removal of DFG. They just made several items OP on top of OP that there was no logic REASON not to pick them up. And what remained unique was...well crystal sceptre. I did like the changes on liandrys though. 80AP is good stuff, but this again is just statballs.

Reminding of which...Oh please just make a haunting guise item for assassin mages. New banshees is just kryptonite for diana and leblanc now.

Fairyfleur7 votes

Meh, I agree with everything you had to say besides the fact that there's too much CDR.

On most artillery/burst mages you'll have about 30% full build. Keep in mind that CDR is probably one of the most important stats to a mage, considering that spells are essentially their only source of damage. Imo, there should be more cdr, but spread to different items.

Many mages who take GLP, or another mana item, usually don't take Morello and are left with no cdr until they get something like banshees.

Overall, I think Morellonomicon has way too much power, and mages who don't take Morello, are automatically short-handed.

An Undead brat5 votes

Actually there is so much CDR that there can even be a option of a item of REDUCING cdr at this point.

Lol how true is that? Gimme a high AP item that reduces CDR.

Eternal Torment3 votes

he literally just listed morell on it. 100 ap, 20% cdr 100 ap 100 AP! that is one of the highest AP an item gives you ingame, only 2 items higher are rabbadons and ludens

An Undead brat8 votes

Gimme a high AP item that reduces CDR.

Eternal Torment1 votes

there is no reduction on reduction other than resistances the question in itself is already stupidity incarnate (forgive the rough speech)

An Undead brat10 votes

You realize not even the OP's sentence was completely serious? Jesus, reading comprehendtion... It's an allegory on how much CDR there is.

Wait, this is not the first time I need to explain this here... Maybe I should stop trying to post stuff that requires people to read between the lines...

Veltox4 votes

item 3030 works well on AurelionSol Heimerdinger Swain and maybe Ryze That's about it.

Frightning4 votes

AP itemization has been in a garbage state for a VERY long time, I remember writing a detailed post about it on the old boards all the way back in season 3. There's a bunch of problems, and part of the problem isn't items themselves but the archetype as a whole being problematic. (Ex: how many mages out there are built around the idea of dumping their entire spell rotation immediately for maximum burst? Answer: A lot of them.) item 3165 has been a 1-stop shop for everything mages want from a 1st item for a long time, before it, in season 3, we had item 3174 before they reworked that into a support item and decided mages aren't allowed to have good mana regeneration and must rely on having a deep mana pool if they experience significant mana costs (not really a bad change, also not one that really helps either, though it does make engineering non-abusable component items a bit easier if that pattern is in place). Some mages that don't need CDR and really want some tank stats because they're short range or do damage over time may pick up item 3027 first instead (ex: Annie, Karthus, Swain etc.) But if you value CDR, then, item 3165 is a no-brainer. If it's AP was 80, and there was a different item 3802 derived item that was more built around the idea of lane dominance and aggressive play which actually gives 100 AP, but isn't a 20% CDR item (maybe 10% or none at all), it would probably help alleviate item 3165's prevalence.

Void Staff could probably use the the item 3035 treatment, and this would also allow item 3165 to lose Grevious Wounds, but still allow AP to appropriately counter-build powerful sustain champs (this is why item 3033 exists for AD in addition to item 3036). There isn't enough flat magic penetration items in the game item 3020 and item 3151 (I don't count item 3136 separately because it's just a component, that builds into item 3151), especially now that ranged champs actually get .5 MR/level, and things like item 3139, and item 3814 are actually decently common buys on squishy AD champs. I think having an AP component similar to item 3134 that builds into 2-3 different magic pen items would go a LONG way towards solving this problem (note that I think no one item should give more than 15 flat magic pen, no more than 10 from the proposed component, since MR values are usually still lower than armor, and people need armor to tank tower shots/jungle monsters).

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

I don't have time to type a huge post about it, but the reason Mage items are "Stale" or boring compared to AD items is simply because Mages variety is in their kit, not their items. Every ADC Right clicks, for the most part, so their itemization is meant to help differentiate in how they Right Click. Mages are already varied enough in the different champions that their itemization doesn't need to help make them different.

They're the Unique Salt and Straw as compared to AD's "Pick your topping" Cold Stone.

GGLineaR4 votes

As a Heimerdinger main, I can confirm. I'm building more or less the same as a Lux is, even though we play radically different.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

I suspect item 3135 will stay % total pen for a while. As long as that's true, it will remain a mandatory item. Therefore, the question is not whether to buy it but when. That's fine.

Mage itemization is also reasonably diverse:

item 3102 item 3157 item 3100 item 3003 item 3285 item 3116 item 3027 item 3165 item 3089 item 3151 , not to mention hextech.

The real issue is that morello's build path and one-item spike are so good that it tends to crowd out other options, and games end before you finish that many items.

SirLapse1 votes

If only I could upvote you multiple times. Morello is good at doing what literally every other item cannot, and that's a major reason mages go for it. Gives CDR AND mana sustain on top of AP, all on a cheap price with no ramp-up like Tear.

A lot of champions want to opt for what is best for their build, and 9/10 times that's always stats rather than an "interaction." We increased that with Hextech and now Banshee's. Lich Bane could use a mana sustain buff when killing units and stuff like RoA should heal more HP/MP per level up to contest with Morello (since stat-wise it is doing pretty well). Rabadon's I don't think will ever be easy to balance, and mages tend to have more than enough waveclear, making Luden's pretty situational and/or unnecessary. Rylai's is a support item practically unless you're Rumble also. It's just very key items affecting first item diversity, which makes people think that mages don't need any other items than x, y and z.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

If only I could upvote you multiple times. Morello is good at doing what literally every other item cannot, and that's a major reason mages go for it. Gives CDR AND mana sustain on top of AP, all on a cheap price with no ramp-up like Tear.

I was going to write a short comment about how to fix this; turned out not to be so short and better suited for a full post of its own. I'll link you if/when I get around to it.

tl;dr, ideally, mages should have the equivalent of item 3086: A bundle of stats that everyone wants, that gives you flexibility in how you'll build when you finish it into a complete item. Problem is, it's hard to make such an item, because there's no stat that is the AP equivalent to crit (ie, all carries and only carries want it).

AP itemization actually acknowledges this; in a lot of ways, item 3165 is the equivalent of item 3086 , but instead of "what does this build into", it's "what do I build next?" It's functional, but not very interesting for the player.

MangelinaJolie3 votes

I don't know how many times it will have to be pointed out, but the community (read: boards and Reddit) BEGGED for more CDR prior to the mage update. The necessity of runes to accommodate it before was always a huge argument, because it was needed to reach the cap. Now all of a sudden the wish is granted and it's a problem?

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Gee, it's like there are different mindsets on the boards and we aren't some sort of hivemind. People who wanted CDR are likely happy and content, no longer having a reason to voice themselves. People who didn't want more CDR are now the ones making themselves heard.

MangelinaJolie1 votes

So where was this crowd when the buffs were asked for? Silent? I saw a general consensus, not a naysay in sight, some which are the very same names I see now who are saying there's too much.

Champion Skin3 votes

item 3165 of course it's a problem... it gives 20% CDR while being one of the highest AP items and also giving mana and some mana sustain (there is also the Grevious wounds effect if that happens to be useful)

item 3135 is one of the best damage items for mages considering it's relatively low cost.... in that it gives a decent amount of AP and decent to very high magic pen (And all that magic pen is really strong as it makes more of your damage get through be it damage from AP ratios or base damage.... unlike Deathcap which only increase AP and thus damage you get from your AP ratios)

Proxy3453 votes

Too much CDR? lol I could easily say the same for AD champs because item 3078 +item 3071 give 40% CDR together and most AD champs can use both items.

Bârd3 votes

Not really.

Both are pretty niche items that are generally used by a handful of bruisers and a couple ADC's.

ForgiveColour2 votes

Except mage itemization right now is way better than just raw ap back in the days

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Except mage itemization right now is way better than just raw ap back in the days

this is true, but ti still kinda leans towards just stacking AP. It's more a core issue with the stat really. Its main draws are that it scales way harder an higher than AP and is harder to mitigate than AD. So in most situations, its just a statcheck game.

This is why Mana stacking was better introduced, to give you something else to itemize around than just AP.

DarkSunSovereign2 votes

How item 3156 is item 3155 magic item 3139 damageitem 3814 harder item 3111 to item 3211 mitigate item 3194 than item 3065 physical item 3001 damage?item 3102

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

How item 3156 is item 3155 magic item 3139 damageitem 3814 harder item 3111 to item 3211 mitigate item 3194 than item 3065 physical item 3001 damage?item 3102

be item 2053 cause item 1031 there item 3068 is item 3082 more item 3047 armor item 3075 in item 3191 the item 3024 game item 3025 than item 3110 there item 3069 is item 3026 MR item 3742 despite item 3143 having item 3157 more item 3056 AP item 1029 than item 3050 AD.

MR is also far easier to mitigate because Voidstaff works on Total MR while last whisper only works on bonus Armor. Armor is cheaper than MR, meaning it requires far less itemisation and works on on any target regardless as opposed to either needing multiple items dedicated to ti or having to sacrifice to pick which type of targets you wanna take out. Champions have higher scaling Armor and much less scaling MR.

Do the math.

DarkSunSovereign1 votes

AD champions have more dps however, a couple auto attacks more than makes up for the difference.

Nocalex2 votes

Every class pretty much lacks variety. Have you looked at an adc build? A support build? How about the fact that cinderhulk is so powerful and useful that in many cases full damage junglers still buy it. So mages have a couple staples. Doesn't every "class?"

ShadowParker1 votes

Personally, I almost never build morellos. I like to go double dorans and if you can cs and manage your mana, you can rush an alternative item.

Craft Zeppelin2 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I almost never build morellos. I like to go double dorans and if you can cs and manage your mana, you can rush an alternative item.

I know your feelings. I buy two dorans, rush sorc boots as malz as it provides strong "unique stats" on the early game. ...Like a malz that can 100% overrun you is HORRIFYING.

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