Balance is a stupid term for a moba. Gamehealth should be core to gameplay discussions.

Kai Guy·Oct 18, 2019·2 votes·1,077 views

I hope to convince folks to start moving the discussions to health. Is it Good or Bad for games enjoyment and longevity? Why? The opinions on what is or is not balance is just a bit cluster fky.

Don't take my word for it. Describe how you would define a "balanced" state and what is needed to accomplish that. Then watch how some one tells you that's not how you balance. If you can't explain how its possible to achieve please don't bother posting, Its usually a waste of time to discuss things that are not realistically achievable.

17 Comments

chipndip1Oct 18, 20193 votes

"Game health"

This shit is a joke.

Kai GuyOct 18, 20191 votes

An example of why I think there's a benefit to trying to shift how folks post.

For me Id like to see folks expressing why they dislike Yasuo rather then the 1,000,000,000 thread about how OP IMBA YAS WTF NERF RITO, then go on to set up unrealistic examples and use misleading values. Admittedly I expect folks will still exaggerate kits grossly and downplay counter picks and item counters, but the freedom for folks to just talk about what in the gameplay is bothering them because its bothering them would be nice as opposed to GP boards functioning as the OG rant section.

If it became ok for folks to not have to try and justify their frustration numerically and just admit they hate interacting with something because they don't enjoy it. Because I like numbers and constantly seeing folks misrepresent things to try and frame it as unbalanced is obnoxious.

chipndip1Oct 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yEEdu4gP,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-10-18T21:19:43.833+0000)

An example of why I think there's a benefit to trying to shift how folks post.

For me Id like to see folks expressing why they dislike rather then the 1,000,000,000 thread about how OP IMBA YAS WTF NERF RITO, then go on to set up unrealistic examples and use misleading values. Admittedly I expect folks will still exaggerate kits grossly and downplay counter picks and item counters, but the freedom for folks to just talk about what in the gameplay is bothering them because its bothering them would be nice as opposed to GP boards functioning as the OG rant section.

...now it's a good idea. Not sure if I'd frame it the way you did, though.

Kai GuyOct 18, 20191 votes

Its me chip. I am awful at framing things. I have to make like 3-5 attempts to convey things. Used to Body language and Tone that my Lexicon gets screwed when I have to resort to Text. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naleynXS7yo

Edit. Like I take things literally to often. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLttd33j-GQ

chipndip1Oct 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yEEdu4gP,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-18T22:02:53.134+0000)

Its me chip. I am awful at framing things. I have to make like 3-5 attempts to convey things. Used to Body language and Tone that my Lexicon gets screwed when I have to resort to Text. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naleynXS7yo

Edit. Like I take things literally to often. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLttd33j-GQ

What you said in your explanation and what the post implies are two totally different things. If you want to get mad at me for telling you this, then go right ahead.

Kai GuyOct 19, 20191 votes

Case and point. I am not mad or upset plus I dont know how ya got that takeaway.

If you take the explanation as context for intent and tone, does that change your preception of the posts body and what it implys? If it does not would you quote the bit you feel is relevant so I can understand what I did wrong? What i want to convey is unchanging and being unable to communicate that clearly is a bit frusturating but its not upsetting.

chipndip1Oct 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yEEdu4gP,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-19T00:01:22.863+0000)

Case and point. I am not mad or upset plus I dont know how ya got that takeaway.

Because game balance is a part of game health. Talking about WHY Yasuo needs changes is a balance question just as much as it's a "game health" statement.

If your idea is to make ridiculous claims in the name of "game health", then your idea is bad. If your idea is to simply encourage people to fully think over their posts before posting instead of just herp-derping with buzzwords, then that's fine. You don't have to move the goal post from "game balance" to do that, though.

Kai GuyOct 19, 20191 votes

I agree balance is part of game health but I do not think game health is singlehandedly determined by balance. I expect folks will make ridiculous claims no matter what, but if the gameplay boards started discussing gameplay in terms of what they feel is healthy it would paint a better picture of what issues are and be easier to help others in the community. Might just be my opinion, i'd rather see a thread like " I struggle/dislike X" vs "X IS IMBA WTF NERF."

I think having to explain where your coming from require more though then trying to slant Numbers like WR or exaggerate values in a kit by listing best case on paper or acting like lanes are always won and some one magical gets full build.

My opinion is some things will be unhealthy even if balanced and it would feel more honest around here if folks open with their Bias and viewpoints rather then try and play them off as a game design buzzword and behave like its a undeniable fact.

So I think moving the goal post would make that easier and more accessible. Its a bit wider and folks have more freedom to express personal views with out demanding the people who disagree need to treat it like a fact rather then an opinion which commonly happens in "Balance" discussions.

Semantics I suppose but as some one who chronically miscommunicates I feel there is a real value in proper usage of language.

VerxintOct 18, 20192 votes

If the problem is that people disagree on what a good game state is, semantics won't change that.

Don't take my word for it. Describe how you would define a "healthy" state and what is needed to accomplish that. Then watch how some one tells you that's not healthy.

See what I did there?

Kai GuyOct 19, 20191 votes

It might just be semantics and its reasonable that I am just selfishly pushing my viewpoint in thinking it matters.

I feel being able to say "this is what I think makes a good gamestate" comes across as an inherently more honest even if people do not share the same oppenion. Id rather see that then "here's how to fking balance X" posts.

VerxintOct 19, 20191 votes

You only feel that way because you're used to this status quo

I feel being able to say "this is what I think makes for good balance" comes across as an inherently more honest even if people do not share the same oppenion. Id rather see that then "here's how to fking fix X's gamestate" posts.

You've seen a million shitty posts about "balance" so you make that association. The words people use won't make the content of their posts any less dumb.

If you prefer those terms, absolutely use them in your posts how you see is appropriate. But someone who has stupid ideas will have stupid ideas, whether he calls it balance or game health.

Darkdemon653Oct 18, 20192 votes

Your argument is that "healthy" is less ambiguous than "balanced"?

Kai GuyOct 18, 20191 votes

Its a bit more binary far as communication goes and can be expressed better as a frustration. The range of what folks think is and is not healthy I expect is just as wide as balanced/imbalanced.

I think things can be "balanced" but also are "Unhealthy." Balance does not imply fun on its own but I feel a healthy game state does. That make sense?

I Like TeemoOct 18, 20191 votes

league has too many champs to ever be "balanced" but power creep is real and really should be a red flag in league... you should never be unkillable but being 1 shotted shouldn't be okay either... which is why i personally think that victor was a great champion.. sure he didn't kill people really fast most of the time and he didn't die all that slowly either... but he wave clears really well and has just enough of everything to be fair to play and play against

Kai GuyOct 18, 20191 votes

Sorta? So Power creep would imply that Old champions are completely by the wayside but a massive # of them would be broken as all hell with old kits. Skillcap creep is a thing, Game time reduction is a very real change as well.

WalkingInACircleOct 18, 20191 votes

Mhm.

In practice, fun is more valuable than fair in games. What is fun depends on the player - most players want action, personal expression, and a side of strategy. The game needs a variety of options for its players to achieve this, and to avoid repetitive gameplay it needs them to possess parity.

preternaturalOct 18, 20191 votes

well yes the game is an ecosystem, balance is an ecosystem. ofc there is money being made around that apparatus too but it's otherwise well balanced for what it is right now.

there's a version of the game where all the champions make money and are fun to play but that's a long long long way off by my estimations. cooldowns have to reduce by a lot, cc has to go up, health has to go up, dmg has to go down, range has to go down and items have to get added. but that's years away and by then there's likely a better final vision in mind because of a new idea that emerged in champion design.

like lol really every champion should play like qiyana as of now, and so now we have to rework every champion to that standard of play and the map seems to be the first step. rito will try to gimp it for a few seasons with items and busted runes and the cloud drake, but really that is the new vision for the game and i like it, there is more potential present in that design scope and some of the more recent designs will age well around it. also yasuo will be a lesser cancer. but then i have to expound on what happens with most of the classes and i cba. tanks would have more actual cc instead of dmg though.