Lets try consolidating the ADC discussion.

Kai Guy·Mar 16, 2018·39 votes·2,241 views

Getting a bit cluttered again, Folks are being tilted exaggerating and rude on both sides. Board folks its possible to disagree and still remain civil. Here is an attempt to set some standards + expectations and hopefully it will both consolidate and generate conversations as well.

1 . Down vote and up vote exclusively for quality, not if something just reflects your opinion. To many echo chambers exist already lets not make this another one. Disagree with some one then please something to them on why your in disagreement but if they made effort leave it be.

2. Be accurate with your statements. If you make a game related example it needs to be a realistic and common example. Fringe events will not help convince any one on the fence. 3. Read other people posts before you chime in, assuming a majority of folks do follow 1 and 2 sorting this thread by Best should put well represented posters to the top. 4. Be respectful. At the end of the day if you and some one else disagree its ok. ELO shaming has no place in this post as well, its entirely fine for players in any MMR to discuss their experience in that mmr. Please keep in mind that if you don't play at some ones mmr then you and them may have vastly different experiences with this game. 5. Express your bias clearly. Lets be real everybody is speaking from personal experience so lets just be clear on that. 2 folks sitting around arguing their experience with lol vs the other gets us nowhere. I have done it so many times, never ends with a very satisfying result. So lets instead attempt to Build a consensus, if 150 folks clearly state their game experience is different then 5 players we can see a pretty large gap.

107 Comments

WiegrafOfValorMar 16, 201825 votes

Damage creep is too out of hand and even adcs would get a better quality of life if damage would be reduced accross the board, specially Marksmen's damage.

ADCs are suppose to be strong only in an organized team, which makes it suck to play in soloQ if they are balanced, hence "ADC 2K17 lulz" memes, I think they were balanced during that time, but most ADC mains don't want to admit that, and I get why.

Plus, Riot is bias with ADCs because most of their whales are ADC mains, so there's no point in this discussion, ADCs will never be balanced, period.

MizayaMar 16, 20188 votes

Riot should rework ADCs then. They are really unfun to play, imo.

WiegrafOfValorMar 16, 201816 votes

It's what everyone is asking for.

Make ADCs less team reliant and less powerful.

GigglesOMar 16, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Make ADCs less team reliant and less powerful.

You really think they are super team reliant? I mean look at trist, jump that resets, and a knockback. Vayne, tumble to dodge things, stealth, gotta go fast MS. Draven has self peel with stand aside. Kog has a slow.

I'm not really sure I've seen an adc get easily nuked either with ga and other items being tailored to them. New runes make it unnecessary to get lifesteal even.

nm1010Mar 16, 201812 votes

I think this is an excellent synopsis of what a lot of players want.

SasogwaMar 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

It's what everyone is asking for.

Make ADCs less team reliant and less powerful.

I think it's a dream to make ADC's less team reliant. ADC's by definition are team reliant, it's what their whole role is about, dishing out damage while being protected by a team. If they weren't team reliant that would mean they could easily selfpeel alone and that would make them much more toxic and unfun to play against.

You can't simply make ADC's less team reliant. It's just like saying "let's make Nasus unkitable" or sthg. Just no, it can't work without breaking everything.

LeetriMar 17, 20184 votes

Wouldn't making ADCs less team reliant mean either giving them more mobility, more self-peel, more hard CC or by making them way tankier? The reason they're team reliant is because they usually can't survive on their own if they get jumped.

SpârkyMar 18, 20182 votes

Just gonna pop in i know im joining late but as a gold adc main i find adc a very fun position but what I think riot needs to do with this damage creep is I think adc's being somewhat a team orientated role is fine and healthy. What I think went wrong is we have now gotten to the point where adc's don't need their team. Riot has tried to balanced adc's but in reality with the buffs to support and damage creep it has taking the skill out of playing adc which is kiting. Hence why now we are seeing so much trist because she can just position so poorly but it doesn't matter because of R and W. I think first the support role should be more centric around the team and not just the adc. Second I think generalist adc's shouldn't be a thing. The main one im thinking of is trist. The most peel an adc should have is one spell (looking at trists R here because it's just a glorified vayne e). To solve the power creep I recommend adjusting crit items but keep shiv/rfc working together because I think it's healthy because it promotes kiting but for the love of god get rid of that shiv burst dmg. Finally I think riot needs to reward kiting as adc's more and focus more on each identity (sivir as a waveclear, Jinx/kog late game hypercarries, Kai'sa and vayne the duelists) and really focus hard on rewarding adc's for using the kit properly because like i said the duelists can do just fine into hypercarries in teamfights which should't happen.

Also, I wouldn't say most people want riot to rework adc's what I have noticed a ton of is around reddit and the boards is the adc mains are relatively quiet. I'm not sure if its because they love this meta but I totally get where others are coming from regarding adc's. I think adc is kinda like support. It takes a certain kind of player to enjoy it. I like it because I like the whole kiting thing and dancing on the edge of the fight but one step to close and I'll die. I miss that. It's still there but you really have to mess up in order to get punished which is where the support thing comes in. (sorry for the paragraph :p)

GigglesOMar 16, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Damage creep is too out of hand and even adcs would get a better quality of life if damage would be reduced accross the board, specially Marksmen's damage.

What I don't understand is why when someone (zoe, rengar, talon, leblank) can just one combo you its "Unfair, needs nerfs" But a ranged adc does that in two-three hits in less than 2 seconds and its "balanced"

AirKingNeoMar 17, 20181 votes

because zoe, rengar, and leblanc all take out a majority of your health bar in a single instance.

GigglesOMar 17, 20181 votes

Because adc's doing 500-700 damage to a 100 armor target is ok? That puts their damage around 1200 to a squishy. Put that up even more with static and rapid fire.

AirKingNeoMar 17, 20181 votes

Are we talking DPS? It's more healthy than 90% HP lost in 0.2 seconds.

GigglesOMar 17, 20181 votes

The DPS of all adc's in the training mode vs the 100 armor dummy is about 1k/second

Against a squishy that has 50ish armor with static shiv its closer to 1.5k/second. That excludes any special things like varus q detonating 3 passive hits, kog armor reduction on q. This is just straight autos.

Zoe has more setup than an adc too.

AirKingNeoMar 17, 20182 votes

Zoe has more setup than an adc too.

Doesn't make it any less stupid to lose 90% HP bar in one instance of damage.

GigglesOMar 17, 20181 votes

Its equally as stupid as losing 100% of my hp in two adc autos since both can happen within .5 seconds if they have an attack reset. We need to debloat damage and reduce it on all classes. Tanks are doing too much, and adc's are doing too much, and junglers clear too fast from too much damage. Almost all of leagues complaints including towers that are too easy to push down come from bloated damage.

Kai GuyMar 17, 20182 votes

@ Giggles and Airking. I wanna direct you two to talk about the expected game time your seeing this damage and What items are required for it.

How much of a build is needed to see 500 to 700 on standard auto attacks, no ability's used Giggles?

How much of a build is needed for LB Rango Zoe to 100 to 0 targets in a rotation or less Air?

AirKingNeoMar 17, 20189 votes

I don't think ADCs are balanced when tanks can full combo them and there's nothing to do, so poke mage 'adcs' become meta.

WiegrafOfValorMar 17, 20181 votes

If the enemy front line manage to dive into your team back line there's obviously a lack of team coordination, that's what I mean by ADCs are team reliant and ADC mains like yourself don't like this.

AirKingNeoMar 17, 20183 votes

Who said I'm talking a team fight? What about a mid-game skirmish? That's not even the real question.

The real question is: Should a tank be able to full combo an ADC to death while an ADC is being CCed the entire duration and can't damage the tank?

WiegrafOfValorMar 17, 20181 votes

If you have the same resistances as a minion and you're 1v1 a champion without your team or at least a support to peel for you, yes you should lose to a laner, regardless if he's a tank or not.

AirKingNeoMar 17, 20181 votes

and what about teamfights where your ADC is forced to be a poke mage?

WiegrafOfValorMar 17, 20182 votes

Than you're teamfighting wrong.

SpârkyMar 18, 20181 votes

As an adc main I heard C9 Sneaky say this once regarding the "tank meta" He said that tanks should be able to kill adc's if they got on them. he said and I quote "If you die to a tank as an adc you did something wrong" and i agree with him on that. I think adc's should be killed by almost everyone if they position wrong or get jumped.

AirKingNeoMar 18, 20182 votes

and Doublelift said during that meta that ADCs were so weak that bruisers like Jax would replace them.

Your point?

HarrowRMar 18, 20181 votes

Just cause some player is good doesnt mean hes right,why should every adc be bad at 1v1,that would just make the class more boring,i personally hate to lose a 1v1 so i play mobile adcs that can kite and outplay

SpârkyMar 18, 20181 votes

You just proved my point. Thats what I want to happen. I want to reward people for kiting. As of right now hypercarries like kog and jinx can just 1v1 most anyone by just standing still. My example is if an adc gets jumped on by say a kha alone the adc will die. But if the adc gets jumped by a bruiser or tank I think the adc should still die but rn tanks and divers cant do anything because the adc can lifesteal more than they do dmg. I want to bring it back to REWARD kiting and positioning. I'm not saying the class can't 1v1 but their 1v1 should rely more on orb walking and kiting and less about can I out lifesteal and kill this guy before he kills me. What I'm saying in the quote and what Sneaky said is that if a tank/bruiser/diver gets on you and jumps you, you should die. Just like what assassins do to alone adc's. Do you get what I mean now. Sorry if i wasn't clear before.

HarrowRMar 18, 20181 votes

I do get it and i still dont agree with you since i dont believe a certain class should win or lose automatically this isnt rock paper scissors,id very much balance it ike in wow,if you ever played wow you know every class is self sustainable and can win vs any other class,some do counter others but its more of a slight advantage than an auto win. Adcs should be able to 1v1 anyone if they have the skill,just like any other class can,why should they be an exception,also if you think adc can out lifesteal tanks then you either havent played adc or you just use full build vayne as an example cause lifesteal is 4th or even last item no 2nd or 3rd lifesteal item adc can kill a tank solely by out healing him,tanks like mao can kill an adc in mid game without taking a hit due to all the cc

SpârkyMar 18, 20181 votes

Alright let me explain this a different way. I think we both want the same thing I'm just not explaining things right.

I do agree adc's should be able to 1v1
what I am saying is that I think riot needs to go back to reward kiting and good positioning which means you can 1v1 someone if you kite properly
I'm saying they need to make it so adc's die if a diver or assassin gets on you. Which right now I think is a Fleet Footwork problem and a overtuned support problem

So we both essentially want the same thing mine is just more general. You are saying adc's should be able to 1v1 people which I agree but if the enemy champ gets on top of the adc the adc should die.

But nice discussion I now see where I was being slightly confusing I totally agree with you though I just want to take that they should be able to 1v1 someone and apply it to teamfights with kiting/ positioning

HarrowRMar 19, 20181 votes

Yes but i still disagree with the part of adc insta dying if a diver gets on top of him,i think all damage should be lower,or like i said somewhere else adcs should get more resistances and hp and less damage,that way the fight isnt who's gonna pop who first,it's more of a prolonged skirmish. For example a fight between Vayne and Diana looks like this now If Diana is fed she jumps and isntakills vayne If Vayne is fed Diana jumps does some damage gets knocked back and proceeds to die in 3 hits

Now what i would like for it to look like with less damage overall is this Diana and Vayne are both equally fed Diana jumps on Vayne does 40%-50% of her hp Vayne kites away and proceeds to kite and deal 40-50% of Dianas hp not in 2 hits but rather in 6-7 Which gives enough time for Diana to get another round of spells and gets Vayne to 10% hp at which point Vayne again starts kiting,now Its a fair fight its basically 50/50 will Vayne kite her to death or will Diana survive with 5-10% hp and get her cds up. Lower Time To Kill makes the game feel more fair,skilled and rewarding in my opinion,its not about blowing people up before they can react

SpârkyMar 20, 20181 votes

See i don't see diana as a diver more of an assassin so I think diana should be able to one hit vayne barring a vayne e before diana gets her pull in. I know diana is classified as a diver/assassin but thats just my thought. Divers include this list which is a subcategory of fighters http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Diver#Divers

Now I'll talk what I mean fighters should win if they get on the adc champs like Irelia if they get on an adc will kill the adc same with camille. So the one's I'm going to focus on are the more juggernaut/diver mixes. The likes of olaf, skarner, kled, renek, and even aatrox.

Those champs are more known as bruisers to most people with mix of damage and hp. The problem I see right now is these champs have to build damage because of their lower(ish) base stats so they need at least 1-2 offensive items but yet as an adc main if a renekton, or kled even jumps on me I'm never scared they will actually kill me (assuming neither of us are fed) because of how much damage I do. Right now it is very hard for divers to actually do their job. Dive. Adc's don't even need to kite these hybrid diver/tanks because of the fact that they die to fast and don't do enough dmg so they are at this awkward state because of how overtuned adc's are.

Just going to throw in that the diana scenario I think should happen. Vayne would get rewarded for correctly kiting and positioning. I'm not saying they should just insta die. I'm just saying that divers need to at least be able to do their job. Because right now adc's have so much forgiveness when they position super poorly.

HarrowRMar 21, 20181 votes

Im not sure how a class that has literally the least amount of defenses,hp,and tankiness,can have as much forgivness as you said for positioning poorly,cause if i play an ADC and i get cced,or jumped,or over extend im dead in half a second,also like i said i really don't think Renekton or Kled have any problem killing any ADC 1v1,they may have a problem in a team fight,since they will be at the front line and get damaged,but if a Kled ults your Jhin,Ashe,Sivir,Twitch,Mf,Kog, etc they will surely be killed,Kled can do 50% of an ADC hp with just his W,add Q and E and they cant even run away from him,and he gets a shield from his ult. If kled ults,hits his QW and doesnt kill an adc then thats a fight between a full HP Kled that can still auto you for 150-200 damage a hit vs a 20% hp ADC that if it isnt late game still has no lifesteal

AptestMar 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Damage creep is too out of hand and even adcs would get a better quality of life if damage would be reduced accross the board, specially Marksmen's damage.

ADCs are suppose to be strong only in an organized team, which makes it suck to play in soloQ if they are balanced, hence "ADC 2K17 lulz" memes, I think they were balanced during that time, but most ADC mains don't want to admit that, and I get why.

Plus, Riot is bias with ADCs because most of their whales are ADC mains, so there's no point in this discussion, ADCs will never be balanced, period.

Nobody wants to play a beaten dog.

Because people have the choice of what to play in this game, the question that riot has to answer is not simply 'how to make adc role fun', but rather, 'how to make WiegrafOvValor choose to play ADC';

Because there is no magical someone else who enjoys playing ADC while it is a sucky class while you have your fun nuking them. The person who must be convinced to play ADC is you.

The ultimate solution is to remove role select and return to 5 men per team with no roles assigned, pick order trumps are you 5 get along by yourself to see who plays what: That will allow the idea of under-powered roles to be implemented again in the game.

341123545652Mar 17, 201816 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ezWsPXPA,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-16T22:36:34.888+0000)

Getting a bit cluttered again, Folks are being tilted exaggerating and rude on both sides.

Appreciate that you acknowledged its been happening from both sides. A particular boards member who I wont name has especially been on the violent ADC defense team lately.

Ive tried my best here to put out some high quality feedback without getting personal feelings involved and I hope alteast someone from Riot sees it.

So you want us to clearly explain our personal experiences and problems ok. Well my biggest problem with bot lane (meaning both the marksmen + support tag team) in seasons 7 and 8 have been stemming from 2 major issues. The first is that certain shield spamming , heal spamming , protective item spamming supports are able to essentially follow their ADC around like a slave the entire game (literally, entire game) and invalidate half the champion roster of league of legends from approaching. It takes very little skill input to reach an extremely successful output result in regard to these particular style of supports. Imagine your only job the entire game just being to follow around the ADC at every rotation / second of the game. Its absurd and I see it very clearly happen like this. No exaggerations no bullshit , its just what happens. In season 5 and 4 for example, a key trait separating highly skilled ADCs from bad ones was their sense of safety. Almost like a 6th sense they had, to know where not to be, tracking every enemy on the map before trying to grab farm. Older league players know what I am talking about. But now they dont give 2 shits about any of that as long as their slave is following them (more on this later).

The second problem I believe stems from damage/power being too high across the board but damage being too high favors certain roles very clearly over others. Ill explain, so assassins and many divers going dmg have always 1 shot people when ahead. In season 3,4, 5, 6 you name it. So damage being high now , has no effect on these champions because if they are playing right, they 1 shot people in the past and they 1 shot people now , whats the difference (infact they probably do it a bit slower now due to being gated from the critically acclaimed assassin rework!). But now if you look at champions like tanks and adcs who previously did not 1 shot people in the past. They now have an increased ability to do so. They gained a huge upgrade in their arsenal and a new found gameplay pattern entirely which they didnt have before. Same with support , power being too high across the board means ull see absolutely disgusting shields being put out and spammed compared to season 4 for example where shields were extremely rare.

Even really niche things like zilean support , in season 4 did you ever see a zilean support revive someone with full hp? probably not cause the support didnt have access to that much resources and you would often see them with a massive item deficit compared to the other 4 roles. This is a huge reason why bot lane snowballs so hard, its because now 2 players are getting insanely fed compared to older seasons where even if the adc was fed , the support would still be behind on items, it was part of their design to balance the 3 lanes power levels. Supports back then actually played a cool game of impacting every role (thus separating higher skilled supports from bad ones) instead of just following the ad around like a slave. So the end result is frustrating in the following experience: you as a solo laner can feel like you are absolutely stomping, not only your lane but everybody else's lane too. You can be quite fed, but you will always be on that incredibly frustrating "clock" where you have to win quickly or otherwise, if the enemy bot lane outscales yours, your hard work the entire game will get invalidated quickly and the enemy hypercarry who feels like they didnt do much the entire game , are now the stars of the game. Technically this is what they were suppose to do being a hypercarry, but the problem is they are reaching the hyper level way too quickly and combined with the support issues I talked about earlier, its near impossible to contest them when their transformation is complete. On the complete flip side, if you are losing your solo lane but your bot lane has a hypercarry and is winning. You can actually just troll and your chances of still winning in season 8 compared to season 4 is way higher.

EDIT: I want to add a last segment here to actually talk about what makes it frustrating to play AS an ADC in season 8, because I have seen this too. Theres two things that make ADC lives hell in season 8. The first is the party bot lane meta. Party bot lane is nothing new in league of legends but in season 8 its not longer a party its a fucking 12 hour nightclub rave. Everybody knows their bot lane has to win and now everybody plays to party in bot lane 24/7. ADC mains want to often prove they are better than the enemy ADC (better adc wins) and they want to 2v2 lane. But they cant because everybody knows their bot lane has to win and they are willing to do anything to make it win. The second thing is the power creep of tanks in the mid game. ADCs are suppose to counter tanks (and they do eventually when they reach 4 items) but right now during the mid game (around 2 items), the level at which dmg dealing tanks can absolutely destroy even fed adcs is insane. I see very often a full tank 2 or 2.5 item olaf vs both the enemy support and adc and what happens is disgusting. He has his tabis too and just charges at them gives 0 fucks and the adc does 0 damage back ZERO damage. The olaf 1 shots them faster than zed (you think im exaggerating is the funny part). Olaf is just one example, many other full tanks do it too. Sure ADC outscales them and ends up deleting them pretty hard late game but why is the power pattern so fucked up?

XeroKimoMar 17, 20184 votes

I'd like to comment on my feelings in this bloat of damage

It's been around for like 3 seasons now, in that time I think it achieved 2 things. 1 that's positive for the game, and the other a negative.

The positive thing is it actually allowed champions that are out of meta not feel as useless if they are played, and or if they are behind. While in LCS you'd normally see like the same 15-20 champions each year, in SoloQ, I'd like to say it's been increasing by the season, and they aren't one tricking or maining that champion. Which is amazing.

The negative is obviously, there becomes a huge skill defecit. Now that everyone is so strong being outplayed once, then pretty much auto losing lane doesn't feel like a player was better than you. This also ties in with the power curves of each champion. When was the last time you felt threatened to farm against what should be lane bullies like Lucian and Miss Fortune during laning phase.

As a fill main tho, I feel that they're slowly implementing this power curve again, without harming the ability to play a wide variety of champions, like pre 8.5 Swain buffs, he was and still is really weak early game, and around mid game he get's really strong, and starts falling off late game. Kai sa has also given me the old vibe of hyper carry adcs, except she's still on the weak side imo, tho I haven't have much experience with her yet so don't quote me on that.

Ok sure but whyMar 16, 201810 votes

ADC's pop like balloons, and it's the supports and tanks that keep them alive and determine whether or not the ADC can actually do damage in the first place

GigglesOMar 16, 201813 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ok sure but why,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ezWsPXPA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-16T22:53:16.654+0000)

ADC's pop like balloons

Someone didn't see that video of Worlds pro play last season where the kog got caught out and didn't die. Took sejuani ulti and everything to the face.

HópeMar 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Someone didn't see that video of Worlds pro play last season where the kog got caught out and didn't die. Took sejuani ulti and everything to the face.

You should probably read the rest of his sentence.

Kai GuyMar 17, 20184 votes

Reminder, try to keep others experiences separate from your own. A person watching Worlds pro play could also have seen a Marksmen get caught out solo and die then use that to form their perception.

If this is the Sej kog worlds play your talking about Janna, Galio and Gragas, well to me they all directly look to support OK shure point that Tanks and Supports keep ADC alive. Koggles did almost nothing there besides take Sej R to his face

Giggles, your very clear in your stance, that's fine. I disagree with you on a few things so that's why I'm happy to see you posting here. I really want you to keep doing so, just try to adhere to the same expectations I'm setting for everybody. Don't let other boards interactions color this one. I think its worthwhile to break the pattern we see in boards discussions. Its my hope that you agree.

OtterlyLostMar 17, 20188 votes

As an ADC main who has been here since season 5, I'm personally of the opinion that ADCs aren't really half as strong as the boards have been saying. ADCs, like AD Assassins, have an item crutch(or two) that are the only things that keep them as relevant champions in this game. During the early part of season 7 when they were awful to play and awful in general, instead of actually addressing the problem of over pressurization from junglers and the rest of the team and the issues with tanks spiking too hard too fast, Riot instead opted to buff a handful of ADC items to allow the ADC class to function. What that has resulted in is a class of champions that are, individually, terrible and still feel terrible to play but can at least function at a moderate rate.

This just upsets the entirety of the boards as the majority of the boards are actually top and mid mains; they are biased and likely never touch the role or even ever play botlane and have likely never actually played ADC. They see the damage that ADC's do(damage that, honestly, they should be doing; that is their only job and that's the only job they've ever had and that's never going to change. Where mages get to do damage and provide utility and Assassins get to be mobile and provide damage to squishy champions, ADCs get just damage; they don't get the defensive options of either of the other damage oriented classes and many of the higher damage ADCs aren't provided with a ton of utility in their kits) and suddenly they're upset because,"How dare this squishy, full damage, no defensive item champion get to do damage with two items that aren't even cost efficient alone?" This logic is baffling to me since mages, before the AP item reworks, got to get morello and sorc pen boots and be able to easily 100 to 0 everyone because no one on the enemy team would have the MR to actually deal with that. Morello was more than 100% gold efficient in just base, raw stats and was monstrously gold efficient when you added in its two passives. It was a ridiculously cheap power spike for all AP mages but almost no one ever complained about it being the issue that it was.

ADC builds are boring and stale and playing ADC isn't fun. I'm pretty much required to build Shiv if I want to win the game; shiv is always the right answer and even considering one of the other zeal options is trolling. I'm also not allowed to just have a 2v2 bot lane; either my jungler or their jungle feels the need to be a permanent feature in the lane with next to little consequence. That is a change I'd like to see; I'd like to see camping be more of a punishable action, specifically around the bottom side of the map. I'd like to be able to see enemy teams who five man bot over and over again actually get punished for dumping all of their resources onto one lane. Because honestly, the meta has been dog pile botlane for far too long and I miss season 5 and even late season 6 where botlane was just a 2v2 lane and you could rely on just playing the game.

I want them to revert the bot tower to make it actually defendable and remove the stupid first blood tower thing all together; it was that point that made ADCs feel shitty to play and it was at that point where they were forced to crutch the class as a whole with Shiv. I honestly didn't see a problem with lane swapping in LCS as it made gaining and maintaining vision control that much more important. It also opened up the map and forced the jungler to go other places outside of botlane.

LauchmelderMar 17, 20184 votes

{quoted} This just upsets the entirety of the boards as the majority of the boards are actually top and mid mains; they are biased and likely never touch the role or even ever play botlane and have likely never actually played ADC.

This sentence alone sums up what is wrong with ADC mains. When 3 out of 5 roles complain about not wanting to be a damn bitch to their ADCs (like supports already are thanks to this stupid meta) then it's just them being biased.

But god forbid ADCs are weak for 1-2 patches, we gotta establish the "ADC in 2k17 lul" bullshit for months just so Riot buffs ADCs and makes them the center of attention again.

Let me copy a post I made a few days ago:

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=lIG70Qfo,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-03-15T16:27:16.676+0000)

Alright, I will start:

ADCs deal too much damage without being gated by cooldowns. This makes them the most valuable asset in your team most of the time.

"The team" has to protect it's most valuable asset (most of the times it's gonna be the ADC, see above).

My complaint? As an AP carry or carry top I don't want to be a bitch to anyone. I want the choice between helping my ADC by peeling for him OR ignoring him and winning the fight myself (with the rest of the team obviously).

I don't have that choice right now, so I want this to be fixed. That is not unreasonable, is it?

That is what literally most of the boards is complaining about, and then we get some ADC mains chipping in and saying that we're just biased because of "reasons". And this pisses me the fuck off.

OtterlyLostMar 17, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ezWsPXPA,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-03-17T09:09:33.770+0000)

This sentence alone sums up what is wrong with ADC mains. When 3 out of 5 roles complain about not wanting to be a damn bitch to their ADCs (like supports already are thanks to this stupid meta) then it's just them being biased.

But god forbid ADCs are weak for 1-2 patches, we gotta establish the "ADC in 2k17 lul" bullshit for months just so Riot buffs ADCs and makes them the center of attention again.

And this is what's wrong with the board at large. I complain about ADC's feeling bad to play and that they aren't strong and back it up with valid reasons and the first thing out of their mouth is a biased opinion with no backing. If you don't want to be called biased because of "reasons"(which are ACTUALLY reasonable reasons), don't be biased in general.

As for ADCs being gated by CDs, there are a multitude of them that currently, in fact, are. When their itemization isn't godawful, a lot of the best ADC's have a lot of their damage locked up in CDs. Some are casters so their damage is literally gated by their ability CDs(Lucian, Corki, Quinn, Graves, Jhin and, to an extent now, Kai'sa) and some are AA's(Ashe Q/W, Tristana's Q, Kog's W). Their itemization right now is just bad and wildly imbalanced to favor Shiv, which they are, again, using as a crutch.

GigglesOMar 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This just upsets the entirety of the boards as the majority of the boards are actually top and mid mains; they are biased and likely never touch the role or even ever play botlane and have likely never actually played ADC.

So I have mained Morde ADC for the last two seasons in a row, and this season. They are stronger this season than in the last two seasons. This is THE MOST DIFFICULT botlane has been for me in the last 3 seasons. ADC's likely got too much in the rune update transition.

ADC builds are boring and stale

Riot is pretty much all or nothing in their balance. They could have easily made items like item 3053 have a split melee/ranged passive.

In previous seasons tank items were also stronger so adc's would occasionally build randuins, spirit visage, and the likes. Tiamat Tuesday anyone? Zephyr?

Old runes gave a ton more combinations too, but instead of making them all equally viable they just kinda were like well here is what we are going to let be strong. Because they even removed things like dodge/sword of the divine.

I honestly didn't see a problem with lane swapping in LCS

I didn't understand this one either. If both lanes are equally easy to take then it should be a strategy to have a 1v2 lane that you "Might" lose.

saltranMar 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

So I have mained Morde ADC for the last two seasons in a row, and this season. They are stronger this season than in the last two seasons. This is THE MOST DIFFICULT botlane has been for me in the last 3 seasons. ADC's likely got too much in the rune update transition.

Riot is pretty much all or nothing in their balance. They could have easily made items like have a split melee/ranged passive.

In previous seasons tank items were also stronger so adc's would occasionally build randuins, spirit visage, and the likes. Tiamat Tuesday anyone? Zephyr?

Old runes gave a ton more combinations too, but instead of making them all equally viable they just kinda were like well here is what we are going to let be strong. Because they even removed things like dodge/sword of the divine.

I didn't understand this one either. If both lanes are equally easy to take then it should be a strategy to have a 1v2 lane that you "Might" lose.

I'm not against adcs buying items like Sterak but I'm sure that the Boards outrages every time adcs builds non-adc items and how they abuse and ruin everything.

And it also seems that Rito also doesn't want adcs to buy anything that isn't dmg.

GigglesOMar 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

And it also seems that Rito also doesn't want adcs to buy anything that isn't dmg.

Accurate statement of the day.

HarrowRMar 18, 20181 votes

If i wrote this exact comment id have -30 down votes,i agree with everything,adcs arent half as strong as boards make them out to be and i do think only 10% of the boards or less are adc mains or have ever played an adc (judging by their ludacris statements) the fact is when i play Malzahar,Zed,Yi etc im always first or second in damage dealt and can carry as much or even more than when i play adc which i main. Also the things ive seen tanks pull off i have never seen an adc do,killing 4 people in a 4v1 for instance while all 4 are actively hitting and ccing him

Wild GeeseMar 17, 20185 votes

I'll make a suggestion nobody will like! Have the BF Sword and Zeal items be each unique crit passives. This caps crit at 50%. It'll completely change ADC itemization. I want to see ADCs running Black Cleavers, Frozen Mallet, cool stuff like that like in the old days when only IE and Phantom Dancer existed. The role is a boring crit machine right now.

Acheron16Mar 17, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wild Geese,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ezWsPXPA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-03-17T05:29:54.900+0000) I want to see ADCs running Black Cleavers, Frozen Mallet, cool stuff like that like in the old days when only IE and Phantom Dancer existed. The role is a boring crit machine right now.

No you dont. The moment ADCs dare to buy anything that isnt an "ADC item" the boards flood with posts bitching about how "Muh armor buys are now useless" or "ADCs just kite us to oblivion with the mallet slow", "X, Y, Z class is now unburstable due to Maw".

ExecutionerMar 17, 20181 votes

Sadly that is also true. I would love to build some things to be a bit more tanky, however when you do as an adc. You're essentially shooting pellets at people.

Acheron16Mar 17, 20182 votes

And we all know what happened last time ADCs "dared" pick items not meant for them (Sterak's Gage)...

saltranMar 17, 20182 votes