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I feel shiv is a bit to strong, would like to see community and red feedback

Kai Guy··36 votes·1,823 views

I am tired of the boards community in its current state, so I'm going to give things an effort to generate change. I don't think its aggrogance on my end to try this, I see lots of frustration in others regardless of if we share the same views.

I want to see if there's possibility to work within boards to build Consensus then bring it to Riot to generate some player to dev communication. Frankly I don't think Gameplays the boards to do it as its pretty player to player but it seems the logical first step. I'm tired of seeing low quality posts get rewarded, I don't think there's any current reason for reds to comment on a majority of gameplay posts due to said lack of quality as well as a lack of player unity and agreement.

Step 1. Generate discussion. Someting i can take a swing at.

Step 2. If healthy discssions happens and consensus is built, nominate who ever is representative best of community opinion to visit current meddler thoughts I think its nessesary this person is not me, for this to work it has to not be about any 1 player but a unified agreement and then follow them up with unified support.

Might be stupid to try and change culture now but hell id like to see it happen.

Edit. the poll option is for Shiv static. I probably should have made that more clear. Edit #2. Please if your participating, don't downvote for disagreements but for low quality or blatant disrespect. Its not going to be constructive if its all just 1 sided opinions. Edit #3. Gonna see if I can snag meddlers attention today, If he responds ill share it here. Regardless I'm thinking its time to wrap this thread up. Seems to be potential in a more discussion driven post, just got to figure out how to make it function better.

77 Comments

Divewing12 votes

I mean, this is all relative to what Riot wants for the item, but I understood that it was to be the "I want waveclear" zeal item for ADCs.

So why does it affect champions?

Throughout the item's history, the damage has been continually played around with, as it either does nothing to minions and is outclassed by other zeal items, or is dealing too much damage to champions.

Kai Guy9 votes

Never thought about it only hitting minions and monsters. I like that idea, or just lowering its damage but giving it higher vs minions.

Edit (more so then currently.)

Disembark8 votes

It’s not about Shiv being powerful or not, it’s that it goes against everything Riots been working at.

Crit autos are RNG but “even out” because they are numerous, but the RNG crit On Shiv is fucking disgusting.

2 item Vayne (with Shiv) tumble autos? No crit: someone tryna tickle me? Crit: Chunk you for 1/2 your health.

With Ravenous hunter the Shiv crit also heals you for 1/2 your health. Games can be DECIDED by Shiv crits - which is super fucking stupid.

WardBaronFFS3 votes

They should just nerf the damn burst since its rng and it decides fights or increase the burst to be more steady and nerf the crit scaling with it

Death by Glamour6 votes

Two things i hate about it

Why does it stack with the other zeal item (i forget its namw)

And why do adcs have to have such wave clear, infact why do all classes have to have a form of waveclear throught items.

Kai Guy3 votes

I think because minions get inbetween you and objectives so its difficult to push if ya cant clear, and AOE becomes a better mechanic if no one can itemize into clear. Janna was viable as AP mid for a bit simply because of how her Q would erase an entire wave with just 1 solid AP item.

Death by Glamour3 votes

Yes i understand what wave clear is my concern us why is it available to all adcs as a crutch

It Hertz When IP2 votes

You're thinking of RFC (Rapid Fire Cannon) and AFAIK the damages do NOT stack; you proc (I think) RFC damage on the first target and Shiv damage to the other targets disregard, you actually proc Shiv on all targets. RFC doesn't do anything on that Energized attack except the range increase.

Kai Guy3 votes

And energized CDR. That's also a part of it, and AS helps generate faster charges then movment, Annnnnd it gives more crit % to make shiv Zap hit harder, on top of the range boost. Also from the lol wiki I learned this. "Statikk Shiv's passive can stack with Rapid Firecannon. The Energized attack will gain Rapid Firecannon's bonus range but will trigger Statikk Shiv's bonus damage to multiple targets. Rapid Firecannon allows the Energized attack to apply to turret, meaning that it can bounce to turrets, apply Statikk Shiv's damage and critically strike turrets. "

So the damage aspects not stacking but theres a lot of positive interactions to having both items ya?

Chroud5 votes

If I read this right its to get a outside opinion on balance or changes for a couple selected non paid players to give to the Riot team?

If so love it.

This type of business structure that you mention is something a lot of big consumer companies do and have seen a lot of success.

Kai Guy4 votes

Pretty much.

Partly its wanting to get back to a point where reds and players interact more. As boards toxicity went up Red communication went down. The down side of all the growth of lol over the years is theres a huge amount of differing opinions and thus each and every change or comment has a higher amount of discontent players generated. I think consolidating opinions to show a mature majority view could change that. an example, If iron stylus still worked for riot his goofy posts would get bombarded with WHY RITO WHY and he would likely get flamed for goofy comments that he then "flys away" from.

I get this opinion from how folks interacted with lyte, how folks talk about CT. How necessary but not positive messages get blasted with -300 votes.

Krofinn5 votes

My idea for a fix: remove crit, but crits recharge it faster. So it's up more, but does less damage. Adcs are supposed to be DPS, not burst, and this would help move them back in that direction.

Leonerdo4 votes

I mean, if you look at the stats, it's pretty obvious that Shiv is the go-to Zeal upgrade, except on a couple champions who can use Runaan's well (Jinx, Ashe, and Kog'maw).

The real question is whether that is acceptable or intended. Is Shiv supposed to be a standard/essential ADC item (like IE has basically always been)? Is RFC supposed to be just a Shiv-enhancer? Is PD supposed to be an incredibly situational pick (not really for teamfighting, and thus not really for ADCs)?

Does Shiv do good things for ADC play-patterns? Do ADCs, or even the whole team, have more fun when ADCs can spend less time wave-clearing? Do ADCs need the threat of burst to compete in modern teamfights vs. mages and assassins?

I would say "no" to all those questions, except maybe the one about wave-clearing being fun (one-shotting waves with Shiv is pretty nice, imo). So uh, yeah, you have my vote of agreement: Shiv is too strong.

SirLapse4 votes

Honestly it keeps switching back and forth between item 3085 and item 3087 in terms of what gets rushed as a power spike. The problem I think is more long term than people are observing simply because we can see more snowbally games these days compared to back then. We would see the same switch of what ADCs are viable based on swapping what crit item is more effective.

Just some questions to ask:

-Does an ADC really need waveclear early into the game?

It is one of the most snowbally elements of the game that Riot has been trying to put under control while simultaneously creeping it in some regards. A lot of it goes over people's heads when they don't pay attention to macro, and then we end up here where the problem is already threefold. Runaan's and Shiv in particular have been constant issues in patch notes before.

-If the purpose of the marksman rework was to differentiate the purpose of ADC, why is waveclear synergy not one of them?

This is primarily relating to champions that would love Runaan's or Shiv respectively in order to activate their waveclear, and specializing in buying the item would therefore make the champions that use them more limited if we were to tone down the effects. Marksman are notorious for being the most generalistic role with a majorly similar champion pool. They're all designed to push towers, but do they all need to specialize at waveclear on top of this?

-Can the problem be solved by nerfing the item's power spike?

I personally believe that there is more to the power spike than "how cheap it is." If any ADC gets waveclear before another ADC, they've already got the leg up for their team both offensively and defensively. This is one of the main reasons Lucian bot lane falls off so badly -- his itemization doesn't suddenly allow him more waveclear later into the game. Waveclear also punishes teams who do not carry waveclear, i.e. solo queue. There's only so much cooldown reduction can do for lower range ADCs.

The current meta reminds me of when Sivir is strong, except that literally everyone has the strengths of her kit by mid game. She is no longer unique in that regard. Not only is this sad, but it makes the problem much more noticeable about waveclear in general.

I think that Shiv needs to be reworked rather than nerfed so that its strengths aren't tied to grabbing it for waveclear and transitioning it to item 3094 burst so quickly. It's too multi-purpose and it needs a trade-off. It has turned from a waveclear item to, plainly put, a battle item. We saw this happen before for Runaan's as well, mostly because it was a rushed first item. Other champions in the game (save for some mages) are not able to generate this kind of "all-rounder" itemization without heavily investing into it and dropping other build options, even if it is only temporary.

This would be a rather large undertaking for Riot, but making it similar to item 3077 I think is the appropriate decision. Have an advanced item cover the base effects with less damage and less stats while emphasizing mostly minion damage (scales per level), then allow the ADC to decide whether they would actually want to further expand their purchase into the full item, essentially creating a more expensive Shiv that is as effective or slightly better than current Shiv on live vs. champions while dropping away the minion waveclear.

Anyway, that's my bit on it.

Kai Guy1 votes

Siax discussed making it minion only, so its the dedicated wave clear item. Given that RFC and Shiv go hand in hand, I'm curious how folks would feel about items that passives combine, Adc can have lower cost items that require both to fully come on line, the current $ might not be the required amount. But there's some interesting potential to have 2 item synergy required, You lose an item slot, your power spike is delayed as the full items effectively just a component till the 2nd is finished. I think we kinda have that going right now for ADC. item 3031 item 3087 and item 3087 item 3094 there's a lot of synergy between them to the point they tend to require each other to function. (kind of in the game, RFC allows Shiv to hit towers, and shiv allows energized attacks to crit on towers.)

Anyhow your a solid example of the kinds of post I was hoping to see, thanks for making the effort.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Meddler and talking about actual problems in the game? Good luck trying.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I think there is alot wrong with shive outside of just the power, we have an overall powercreep, and even more so on adc and their items, so shive just fits that pattern.

However, i think it has quite some design issues that again fit the overall pattern of adc issues. The main point here is crit, it not only alows for hyperscaleing, but also is RNG based and can create burst spikes on a dps class, giveing them way more upfront damage than they should have. Shive with it's proc increases that upfront burst for ADC even more and also increases the impact of RNG. On top of that, it offers to much waveclear. Back in the days, waveclear was part of a champions powerprofile, and many champs were balanced by their lack of waveclear like Vayne. Now Riot wonders how games get stalled out depsite the high snowball when any ADC can just clear all ranged minions in 1 AA from ~700range with SS+RFC...

Kai Guy1 votes

Got any ideas on whats a good fix? take a moment as well to view some of what others have said see if some one has something you agree strongly with.

lil koda2 votes

iv been playing adc ever since iv played league, and iv always been discusted by the fact an adc can pick up an item for a 500 magic damage nuke as an item

50000000000000002 votes

I think the problem is that it offers too strong of a burst, especially combined with IE. I think maybe it should apply some sort of DoT, or remove Shiv and introduce another zeal upgrade.

Shiv is supposed to be the waveclear item, but there's already Runaan's, right? I guess Runaan's synergizes better with on-hit while Shiv synergizes better with crit, though, so maybe that also needs to be addressed if we are to remove Shiv.

Kai Guy3 votes

Saïx Raised an interesting point, why does it have to affect champions if its a wave clear pick?

Ferox2 votes

Imo they should make Shiv a melee only item kind of like Runaan is a marksman only item. They could then make another zeal item for better crit diversity without having a 600 dmg first shot poke, as well as keeping low waveclear for champions that have no business clearing fast Vayne .

Troll for Trump2 votes

Shiv doesn't make ADCs OP, ADCs make shiv OP.

Same with many other items.

Douglas Funnie2 votes

nerf it. nerf it to the ground

Kai Guy1 votes

I want to direct things in a direction that creates solutions. Rather then Gut this item, can you find any way to make it feel healthy, or failing that why not take a moment to look over others posts in this thread and see if anything sticks out you would like to support. Siax, shiro,
Krofinn, and 5000000 (so on) All have posts about changes, 500lotsofmore00s Did bring up it for potential removal and replacement with new zeal line item as well. Take a look, and/or bring your own idea forward bud.

Douglas Funnie1 votes

Listen, League is already filled with RNG and overpowered/overloaded runes. The best thing Riot can do is nerf, period. There is no point in over complicating things by changing the item. It doesn't need any changes. Just nerfs.

Kai Guy1 votes

Alright, for me, Gut X is not a answer I will personally endorse. So, nerf Shiv is your stance, can you provide us some clarity on how much of a nerf you think is needed and the most healthy way to lower its power? Something as simple as a flat % power loss or gold efficiency loss is an entirely acceptable answer thou I would love for a detail post showing thought and consideration.

Done251 votes

Shiv can't be made healthy because it negates the biggest weakness most ADC's have. Awful mid game wave clear. What point is there to investing gold into mage based AoE when all marksmen can just buy an item that offers an endless source of safe and mana free wave clear?

Bârd2 votes

My only issue with Shiv is its interaction with ravenous hunter.

Seeing a carry with no lifesteal heal 500 HP off a crit on a minion wave is just silly.

Kai Guy2 votes

Yea, that probably has really good synergy with fleet footwork as well. I get hunter line needing kills to stack but its pretty realistic to assume that adc will get all 5 by end of a game unless they got stomped.

spicystats2 votes

A shiv crit can potentially add well over 500 magic dmg to each person in a fight. Sometimes its more damage then if you had chose to build runaans, sometimes its less, it depends on ADC. Jhin is the best example of this.

I feel like its used more because of "its magic dmg burst". Yeah it does AOE damage and can help wave clear, but I feel like most ADC's build it because their crit Autos can come close to one shotting squishies with it. If you think this is unhealthy (this might actually be a bit subjective) then its probably strong.

I don't know a good fix to this at all, because I don't know if Shiv is intended to be used for one shotting? I think the magic dmg it has gives it better DPS then other zeal items except runaans.

If you want to dedicate it towards wave clear maybe reduce how much a crit shiv proc does to a champ. I don't know if thats a good idea because some champions have already been nerfed because they come close to one shotting with shiv and are reliant on it so...

Kai Guy1 votes

Currently Shiv has less damage to champs as is and its still at this state. If you don't have a good fix idea would you kindly take a look at some of the others posts, are there any you see that you really like?

spicystats1 votes

The suggestion I liked the most was where you remove the crit but make crits charge it faster, although that sounds like a potential nerf honestly. If you crit with shiv once with IE that is roughly the same as getting 2.5 shiv procs. So you'd have to get off more then 2 shiv procs for it to have more DPS. You can do this with the right numbers though.

That being said I think I wasn't clear when I said I don't know a good fix, I'm also not entirely convinced its too strong right now.

Its DPS is worse then runaans on ADCs with somewhat long range and the "arguable problem I feel" (I am not sure if it is a problem), is shiv crits are too bursty, but you can argue that this its OK for ADCs to have this. Its a better DPS item then runaans on like Lucian / Jhin, although you don't pick Jhin for DPS and Lucian I feel enjoys it more because of the increased burst then DPS.

The damage it does to champions is decreased, yes, but its still a fair amount. If you crit with a shiv proc on one auto on a champ, it is as if you had gotten off two critical hit autos. I think if you play vayne / Draven and you forgo shiv for any other zeal items you'll notice its significantly harder to burst.

Making it exclusively a wave clear option would too harshly nerf it, as it has negligible teamfight utility compared to any of the other zeal items then. It would still compete with runaans as well for the same role. It would require a big buff to wave clear in compensation which might be too much.

My suggestion was to decrease the amount a crit shiv does to champions, not the shiv damage itself, although again I am not completely convinced it is too strong.

Suffocation2 votes

Shiv should be build when you want a better weaveclear but right now it gives a high burst and it's also pretty safe since you can use it on a minion and it will still hit a champion if he's close to the wave or with RFC so you don't have to take risk to proc it so here are some ideas to nerf the item but keep his identity ( Don't need to apply all of them but 1 or 2 would be enough )

  1. Reduced damage on champions
  2. Doesn't proc "spellvamp" ( mainly a problem because of Ravenous Hunter )
  3. Cannot crit
  4. Doesn't stack with Rapid Firecannon
Kai Guy2 votes

its got reduced damage to champs, in that it does extra damage to minions. RFC and Shiv combined make it so shiv can hit towers, and crit. alone shiv cant target towers, and RFC damage cant crit. Combined you get range with damage from Shiv as well as aoe, and it can also crit. Bit much?

Done251 votes

Way too much. Shiv is just too strong and should be retooled into being mainly for pushing. Much like what happened to Sunfire Cape.

Staticc Shiv - Deal 20-50 damage (Based on level). Can Crit. Deals 200% more damage to minions and monsters.

GankedByWindows1 votes

I don't necessarily think that shiv itself is overpowered, but rather the combination of shiv and RFC. That amount of safe burst on adcs probably shouldn't be in the game. Especially on edge cases like lategame Trist or Caitlyn with the items, that can be half a squishies health at 3 items from incredible range.

In addition to that, the combination is so good that it stifles any reason I would take the other two Zeal items, even when they would theoretically be what I want. For example, when I need more AOE teamfight presence, I still end up going RFC and Shiv even though Hurricane should theoretically be what I want. Or if I'm into 2 or even 3 assassins, I really don't even consider PD because I'll be safer having the burst from Shiv and RFC.

I'd like to see them nerf the combination of the items first and see what impact that has. Either item without the other doesn't seem that bad, but the combination can be overbearing. Whether that means they don't stack at all or its a reduced damage, that would be something that needs testing.

Kai Guy6 votes

See I think Shiv is giving a bit to much waveclear and damage early, That proc starts poking squishy a bit once item 3031 and creates what feels to me is a 2 item power spike. I personally want to see its damage Gated a bit more behind EXP not if it crit %s or not. I really don't mind it coming online as a strong item when it spikes, just don't want it to be doing so at the time it gets built when rushed.

GankedByWindows2 votes

I don't mind the 2 item spike as much because of the risk you have to take to get it off. An adc has to walk into range against say a Syndra to get that damage. That is significant risk/reward. But when you add RFC to that and now you outrange that Syndra, its low risk for very high reward.

As far as it being crit % oriented, I think that is a different discussion that is HUGE both in terms of volume and implications for the game, so I'm assuming crit for now is here to stay in its current form.

Kai Guy1 votes

depends, lots of adcs just hit minion wave and get some free damage out of the shock with out putting self into much if any danger.

50000000000000003 votes

While this is definitely BS, this has a static cooldown of 30 seconds because minions spawn every 30 seconds. I don't think poking through minion wave is particularly a bad thing. I think the issue is more around the single target burst it offers.

Sõna1 votes

I used Statikk siv as adc and dealt probably 30k-40k magic in one round approximately.

Kai Guy3 votes

Thats sounds pretty crazy, for accuracy sake what adc did ya play? As some do a good deal more magic from their kits KogMaw Corki Ezreal

xelaker1 votes

I'd rather see shiv than duskblade.

Kai Guy1 votes

On the whole, or on marksmen? I think Shiv is a good part of the Crit adc problem and why they start scaling a bit to fast in the current meta, For other roles and classes no so much. So to clear things up its not like its OP on everybody just provides to much power to folks who pick it up, With that as the context does that change your response any or do you actively hate duskblade on Marksmen more then Shiv? Its fine to think Duskblade is also a problematic item on the champions who can use it well, That how ever is a different discussion to make.

xelaker1 votes

on the whole. shiv can only hit you with lightning sometimes, or not crit. duskblade on the other hand is either gonna hit you like a truck or isn't hitting you at all. I think shiv's problem leans on zeal being too strong for it's low cost. up the cost or lower the stats on zeal and stuff like shiv follow suit. duskblade has a pretty good build path and stats and gets the amazeballs ward clearing and damage passive. I think shiv looks better because the entire adc build is pretty darn good, so everything gets to excel.

Oh and I don't see duskblade on marksman enough to comment on that.

Barkley1 votes

Well, this is like the 80 billionth thread on the matter, so I'd imagine you probably already have your answer.

Kai Guy2 votes

Well there is an insane number of adc posts. I wanted to make this thread a bit more specific then many and i really want to differentiate it by allowing the folks who disagree to be able to voice their opinions and explain why with out negative consequence. I'm tiered of the Majority rule mentality invalidating players from contributing to discussions.

Its clear a high amount of players share my view, Shiv is strong, but not everybody is of the same mind. For every 2 yes votes theres over 1 no/undecided. I have my views, i tried to express where they come from, I want to see the other side and learn more about why folks disagree.

So, where do you stand on the topic of item 3087 ?

Starcraft243ver1 votes

You missphrased your title it should be "omg riot shiv op, fire team balance".

Kai Guy2 votes

That's what I'm trying to avoid doing and the kind of post I wish to discourage.

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