As a fan of masteries and really not wanting Riot caving in to these Gameplay topics...

SteelMankind··2 votes·523 views

...but still cognizant that my opinion is in the minority,

What are peoples opinions on removing masteries EXCEPT keystones? For the most part, none of the other masteries are terribly exciting, yet they contribute towards this "damage inflation" that everyone except me seems to hate. The keystones are where the desicion about playstyle is made, and the last thing I want to see leaving the game.

8 Comments

Nameless Voice2 votes

As someone who has grown to hate masteries and keystones - I like the idea of them in theory, but right now they are a) too impactful and b) too much of a "solved problem", in that which keystone you pick is almost always just directly tied to the champion that you are playing. There's no real choice because one option is just the best.

SteelMankind2 votes

What do you mean by "too impactful?" That's exactly what they're supposed to be - noticeable impacts on how a champion is played.

Your second point is just incorrect. The keystone that is taken 70% of the time in Plat+ according to champion.gg ISN'T the keystone that's best in every game - it's the keystone that's best in 70% of games.

For example, Diana typically takes Thunderlords Decree because it helps her oneshot. Say the enemy team has a comp with 3 tanks. This game, rather than taking TLD and rushing Ludens -> Deathcap for the oneshot, the better build is to actually take Stormraiders Surge and build ROA -> Nashors, so you can effectively splitpush and duel the tanky champions. Taking TLD is actually going to be a rather poor choice, as the CD would likely just be eaten up doing peanut damage to a tank.

People are seeing the keystone that is taken most often, and wrongly assuming that its the best in every situation, rather than the best in MOST situations. One way a player can be skilled is recognizing which games are games for different keystones than the standard one. Really, the only champions who only have one good option are mages who don't use DFT too well. Everyone else has at least two options (though plenty, such as Illaoi, have multiple).

Nameless Voice2 votes

By too impactful I mean that they contribute too much to someone's power. They are the main reason why there's so much damage in the game at the moment. Also, if you'll forgive my quoting myself from another thread:

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=asuiMK1E,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-01-28T23:45:53.858+0000) [..] they homogenise the champion pool.
When [keystones] are strong, they mean that everyone who takes the same ones has similar strengths. [..] all tanks get a shield when they CC you. All mages deal a burst of extra damage if they hit three attacks in a row. All enchanter-supports heal for a bit more. There are some edge-case champions to these rules, but the point still stands: keystones lend too much similarity to the group of champions who take each one. They also allow champions to offset or overcome their designed-in weaknesses, leading to champions who overall feel worse-designed and less balanced than they ought to be.

Diana is a rare case who actually has a few keystones to choose from. For most champions, there's a single clear keystone which is the best in almost ever scenario.

Illaoi has multiple because none of the keystones actually synergise with her particularly well.

SteelMankind2 votes

I suppose Soraka and Janna are kinda forced to take Windspeakers, but aside from them and a few TLD mages most champions have one keystone which is taken most of the time, and one that is taken occasionally.

Does your champion typically take CotC, but you suspect that this game in particular is going to involve long wet noodle fights? Grasp.

Does your champion typically take Warlords, but you feel like the matchup is easy/you have a sustain support? Fervor.

Champions who only have one viable keystone are the exception, not the norm.

Rax Reformed1 votes

I didn't know it was a popular request for Riot to remove Masteries. Ever since the Keystone update to Masteries, I feel like there are quite a few impactful choices I can make before a match starts. Take that away, and you're shaving off a level of complexity that's been part of the game since release.

While I know the games are in no way similar, WoW did the exact same thing when they removed talent trees back in MoP. No one even asked for the removal of talent trees, they just decided that they were an illusion of choice, and no one wanted them anymore, so poof they were gone. Fast forward to the current expansion, and they ended up bringing them back, in the form of weapon talents, because they realized that added complexity is added depth, and added depth makes your game more interesting. Even if talent trees are more of an "illusion of choice", I still feel that they're an essential illusion. Riot has done a very good job at balancing the Mastery trees and keystones, it would be more than a shame to see all that work go to waste.

SteelMankind1 votes

I feel like I see a post complaining about masteries almost every day on the boards. While I also like the current system, I especially don't want Riot to remove keystones.

VoraciousX1 votes

You'd be nerfing on hit builds, which are already not amazing because they require late game to be relevant, just by removing the 5% attack speed. It might even be the final nail in the coffin. I also think it's ridiculous to remove masteries. I mean, I dislike dying as much as the next guy, but I don't think removing masteries is the way to go, when the choices you make in masteries are so interesting and fun to experiment with. If they want to nerf damage they could easily just increase the base armor and magic resist of every champion in the game to make it so that they're not taking as much in the early game, or if late game damage is the problem, armor and MR growth. There's more than one way to skin a cat, isn't that how the saying goes? I also disagree that there's one keystone that you'll pick dependant on champion. For example, if I wanna go on hit TF, I can either go thunderlords, warlords, or fervor. Warlords or Fervor would help because it'd add extra attack speed. If I wanted to go AP TF, I could go for Thunderlords or Stormraiders. Stormraiders would help with positioning after I got off my combo, Thunderlords would add more burst. Same for Diana, I can go Thunderlords or Stormraiders, or even Windspeakers if I wanted more shield power, though Windspeakers would be a waste most likely as you can't heal allies, but if I needed the extra shield power for the matchup it wouldn't be terrible probably. All ADCs can either go Warlords or Fervor, they prefer Warlords though right now cuz they like to get lifesteal later on and it helps with that. Riven, I can go Fervor, Thunderlords, Stormraider's, or Courage of the Colossus. It really depends more on matchups and what you feel would be best for the situation rather than "Which champion am I using", or on occasion it can depend on how you want your playstyle pattern to be, for example do you want more chase potential as Diana? Choose Stormraider's, but if you want more burst, choose Thunderlord's. There are a lot of possible options for many champions, dependant on playstyle, champion matchups, and whatnot. Just because you only SEE one option doesn't mean there aren't other viable options.

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