Can we get a brave Riot member to comment on Why Lee Sin and Graves are in every game?

PapaGreg21·Apr 26, 2017·103 votes·17,807 views

This has been going on for a very long time and I don't know if anybody at Riot has noticed but these guys are clearly better at performing their role than 95 percent of the jungle roster. Nobody at Riot ever talks about this in the red tracker but to me it seems like the biggest issue the game has right now by a wide margin for anybody playing the jungle role. At least somebody acknowledge that this is going on, even if you don't have any answers for it right now so we at least know it is being discussed.

218 Comments

RiotRiot Wav3BreakApr 26, 2017113 votes

Lee Sin and Graves are definitely on our radar. In the upcoming mid-season patch, we will be releasing 3 updated tank junglers and a whole set of item updates which will have an impact on the current meta. We plan on evaluating potential changes from this new world rather than making changes now that might be incorrect once the mid-season meta settles.

xelakerApr 26, 201713 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin and Graves are definitely on our radar. In the upcoming mid-season patch, we will be releasing 3 updated tank junglers and a whole set of item updates which will have an impact on the current meta. We plan on evaluating potential changes from this new world rather than making changes now that might be incorrect once the mid-season meta settles.

the entire point of all these posts is that riot has done nothing to even remotely sooth the issue at hand, except to spout exactly what you just said... just say it riot. "we favor certain champs because they are flashy or fit into our vision of competitive play so we tiptoe around nerfs". the ol, "we don't want to do anything before this next super amazing problem solving patch" has been the go to phrase for some time now. maybe they don't fit into the new meta for once?

Weasel KenseiApr 26, 20173 votes

Well maybe theyre just lazy about it...

Like the kind of lazy someone who doesnt bother to hit the SHIFT key to make the first words of a sentence capital letters.

Like people who cant do that, they probably just cant be bothered to do it.

xelakerApr 26, 201711 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weasel Kensei,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yAk81Exd,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-04-26T19:57:07.278+0000)

Well maybe theyre just lazy about it...

Like the kind of lazy someone who doesnt bother to hit the SHIFT key to make the first words of a sentence capital letters.

Like people who cant do that, they probably just cant be bothered to do it.

i'm replying to a thread about a video game, not writing a thesis. you want grammar fun be an english professor. i am also ignoring the capitalization i could use in this post. i hope it doesn't trouble you too much, but i don't see a huge issue. i might not be as amazing as you are though, so i might be wrong about what i am doing in the posts i write. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Weasel KenseiApr 26, 20171 votes

the entire point of all these posts is that riot has done nothing to even remotely sooth the issue at hand...

Complains at Riot. OK.

Riot feels like...

i hope it doesn't trouble you too much, but i don't see a huge issue.

Don't expect effort from others in life when youre so proud to be lazy as hell about simple stuff like capital letters. HAHAHA.

WheatloafApr 26, 201716 votes

whispers softly you're

Weasel KenseiApr 27, 20171 votes

On the League forums anytime you use a ' it actually is a character code "&# 039 ;" (no spaces). You see it all the time when you mouse over a topic and someone types a contraction like "I don't use apostrophes on LoL forums for a reason" in their post.

You can see an example of this by mousing over the top thread in gameplay "Please don't wait till season 8 for 10 bans." Mouse over that thread for the preview text and you will see "don &# 039 ;t" (no spaces). Looks ugly as hell, like not capitalizing for sentences... so yeah, dont care for either.

So... whispers softly Good try, but fail.

See I have to actively remember to avoid using ' on these forums instead of just pathetically and lazily not hitting SHIFT to capitalize letters at the beginning of a sentence.

HarrisonOwnsApr 27, 20176 votes

whispers softly

their post*

Mecha MaIphiteApr 27, 20176 votes

He's trying to recover from his first comment but it just keeps getting worse and worse.

WheatloafApr 27, 20174 votes

Rule #1 for internet discussion board Grammar Nazis: Chances are you're being an asshole, so at least make sure you're a damn correct asshole. If you make a mistake while pointing out someone else's, take the loss. For the fatherland.

Illâoi Evê SiônApr 26, 2017154 votes

I'm afraid that this will happen:

Patch 7.9: Mid-season Update; no extra balance changes. Patch 7.10: It's too early to make any assessments, still working through the data. Patch 7.11: Graves and Lee Sin have fallen in popularity. This might be a sign that the mid-season affected them negatively. Patch 7.12: Graves and Lee Sin have fallen off the radar. Patch 7.13: The community cries about nerfing Lee Sin and Graves now and again but the Rage Train has become a Rage Bobby Cart so it gets ignored. Patch 7.14: The community attaches this annoying horn to the bobby cart so someone agrees to look at Lee Sin and Graves. Patch 7.15: Still looking. Patch 7.16: The verdict is that Lee Sin and Graves are too strong at the moment. They both get Shyvanna-level mini-updates on the PBE and weird new gimmicks. Patch 7.17: After community backlash, the changes are reverted. New changes are promised, but they couldn't meet the deadline so they'll have to wait until the next patch. Patch 7.18: -3 AD. ... Patch 7.20: Some tournament is coming up so Lee Sin's ult now also reduces enemies' Armor by 15/20/25% for 6 seconds. Graves' ult stuns the first enemy it hits. Both get +10% to their AD ratios.

THE RlVER KlNGApr 26, 201720 votes

This is actually painfully accurate

QuksliceApr 26, 20171 votes

They mini-reworked Lee and Graves and yet, people complained about it. What do you want Riot to do if they can't change without getting backlash but can't not change without getting backlash?

AMYS GRAVEApr 26, 201712 votes

I expect them to man up and take a stance. Either graves and lee sin are fine and represent the gameplay that riot wants to see or they need changes. Instead they pussy foot around the issue promising changes that will never come to try to keep both sides happy.

XonraApr 28, 20172 votes

"to try to keep both sides happy."

This has sadly become Riot in a nutshell (cough cough Dynamic queue, then flex/solo)

They have no balls anymore and seem to focus on trying to please everyone, and in most cases they annoy both sides over pleasing just one, then pat themselves on the back for the great job they think they are doing.

HarrisonOwnsApr 27, 201713 votes

Nothing meaningful has ever happened to Lee Sin, ever.

CanastusApr 26, 201730 votes

7.21: Ahri gets a legendary skin, meanwhile Cass and Yorick still are waiting for any recognition from Riot's skin-department. Oh, also the tail-update still isn't out.

Magical ZoeApr 26, 201720 votes

7.22 Ahri gets Ultimate skin
Cass and Yorick get deleted because no one plays them anyways*

QuortApr 26, 20172 votes

Cassiopeia is tons of fun! I like to play her or Vel'Koz on the rare occasion that I go mid lane.

ModAcademy KaynApr 26, 201752 votes

I mean, I laughed, but things like this don't really promote discussion.

Illâoi Evê SiônApr 26, 201747 votes

What kind of discussion were you hoping for here? Wav3Break acknowledged that Lee and Graves are on their radar so all we can do is trust in them for now. We'll have to wait and see how the Mid-season pans out. Afterwards, we can hope for a feedback thread or maybe start a discussion in a stray one or in one of Meddler's Gameplay Thoughts. If they think these two still need changes then, we can give feedback on what they propose.

At this stage I'm just expressing my fears that it will never come to that. Many things have been on Riot's "radar" before. It needn't mean anything.

ElikainApr 27, 20171 votes

And acknowledging that they are looking at them is all they can do right now. Because they don't want to "Olaf" or "Sejuani" both Lee and Graves based on the community "outcry" that they need changes.

Let us not be unreasonable in our demands. Riot is not going to nerf/buff something based on feelings of anyone. Statistics are proof they need to make changes.

Dextix LTApr 27, 20173 votes

And why dont they want to "Olaf" them?

They had no problem to do that with so many other champions, INCLUDING Sejuani and many others. Why does lee always get the free pass for EVERYTHING?

Is it so unreasonable to balance ALL champions equaly instea of letting golden boys like lee run rampart ALWAYS?

You do realize that for almost the entire duration of the game, Lee has been the ,measuring point of every jungler? The jungle pool literaly depends on the question "Can i beat lee"? HOW FUCKED IS THAT?

The statistics have shown that lee needs to be changed 2 season ago already! And has he been changed? Yes, but so little that he still remains dominant. The only time when he was "weak" he was instantly BUFFED HARD before LCS!

Riot doesnt care about any proof, otherwise lee would not be so dominant everywhere.

ElikainApr 27, 20171 votes

Riot doesnt care about any proof, otherwise lee would not be so dominant everywhere.

Lee dominant? According to what stats exactly? Here's his champion.gg and lolalytics page so go look at his win rate. Looks reasonable to me on an average level and reasonable for really experienced Lee players. The only issue i'm seeing is that he's too frequent of a pick and that's apparently a problem. And why should Riot ever gut a champion because people are just too annoyed to have him in every game?

And no, Riot should not repeat the "great Olafing" or great Sejuaniing" ever again. That happened because they preemptively nerfed champions. I'm not saying that Lee doesn't need any changes. What i'm saying is that Riot is holding out on Lee's and Graves' changes because they have already indirect changes ready to ship in the near future and they don't want to double nerf champions, only to have to compensate afterwards.

What i'm telling people is to be patient.

Dextix LTApr 27, 20172 votes

Look at his PICK RATE. With that pick rate his winrate should be 40-45 %, because bad lee players would bring down the curve HEAVILY. There is a reason why some low pickrate champions have winrates of 55%+ and are not broken, because they are being picked by mains only.

Lee at his considerable high skillcap with a high pick rate should have lower win rate, yet, he defies that rule, meaning that there is something wrong with the champion. And even before that his pick rates were in the steady 10%+ percentages, while many other champions struggle to get more than 1%.Lee single handedly defines the meta of jungle.

Riot should NOT gut a champion because of people being annoyed. However, such INSANE pick rate point towards there being something completely wrong with the champion itself.

And YES, they SHOULD repeat olafing and sejuaning. Why? BECAUSE THEY DID IT TO EVERYONE ELSE! Azir? Destroyed. Elise, destroyed. Nidalle, hell ever her destroyed. Riot always brings down the nerf hammer sooner or later with problem champions, yet lee almost never suffers that, despite defining the jungle meta for entire seasons.

They have been holding for FAR enough, and th fact that they NEVER hold back with OTHER champs (As exeplified by fucking sejuani) shows blatant favoritism.

We have been patient enough, there is time for action already. Patience is not an infinite resource. With your logic we should be patient until the end of days and just listen to every bullshit excuse Riot has in the book.

IcyPepperApr 26, 201740 votes

To be fair, he's voicing concerns based on past occurrences using humor. While it may not necessarily promote discussion, it does effectively communicate his point without being too obtuse or rude about it.

Dextix LTApr 27, 20174 votes

What discussion is there to be had when the answer is?

SOON(tm)....

Shadow HazardApr 26, 20172 votes

I think the big question after this is how on earth is there not even some potential things to try out. For example you could say oh we are looking at the options of changing base or scaling value of X skill by Y value, we are looking to reduce the skill damages across the board to put power more into passive, if it turns out that they are still out of line after the midseason changes. Saying that they are on your radar and don't want to make changes because next patch could affect them is frankly a cop out and a response that a board detective could very likely find a copy pasted response for a similar issue. Midseason as well as preseason is supposed to be the time for sweeping changes even if they aren't on the roster list especially for a champ like lee who can itemize with basically every changed item positively and graves who will have even more options now.

The Yetii RiderApr 26, 20176 votes

Are the tank junglers themselves really the issue? Isn't the larger problem that tank champions as a whole are having a hard time clearing the new jungle with any sort of relevancy?

Every time Riot updates the jungle to make it hit harder, AD champs quickly rise to the top of the ranks because the faster you kill something, the less damage you take from it. Changing a few kits won't make much difference without changing the monsters or Hunter's Talisman or something.

Yordle XayahApr 26, 201737 votes

On your radar? I sometimes feel you guys truly don't understand (or maybe don't care?) how frustrating some champions really are.

People are bored of seeing this champions in Solo Queue, people are bored of seeing them at the competitive level. Lee Sin is the epitome of a stale meta, a champion that can do everything better than other options, yet you haven't touched him the way you've dealt with Kassadin, Gangplank, Jhin, Lucian, Mordekaiser, Zed, Darius or even LeBlanc. All champions that got to be dominant for very clear periods of time and you dropped meaningful nefs on them.

Graves has got to be one of the most ridiculous things to watch on the LCS. He essentially takes zero damage on the Jungle. You destroyed Nidalee, yet this guy has been doing this for over a year at this point.

Of course they are fun to play. Over tuned champions are always fun to play. The part that annoys me the very most, is that you allow these two to be monsters for months, while also allowing stuff like Mordekaiser or Aatrox left untouched for months and even years and then dare say you don't even know the champion's identity anymore.

Oh but Lee? Just let him remain super strong and frustrating for years and just "have him on a radar"

ShaolinToiletApr 26, 20172 votes

They have fun kits as well not just too strong.

Yordle XayahApr 26, 201719 votes

Cool. Let's give em proper meaningful nerfs then, as they should remain fun anyways if we follow that logic.

Velzard of KozApr 27, 201710 votes

Rework Vel'Koz that he'll have two dashes, no delay on E, no decay on Q, his W will reduce enemy's MR by up to 50% stacking for 5 seconds and he'll be "fun to play" for majority of playerbase, too. Why does it look like the champions that are "fun to play", are usually the ones overlapping several roles and hard to define because the designer himself couldn't decide whether they want Assasin Burster or One-way-mobility SustainedDMG Diver. It's not fun when one such champion is badly designed and overshadows other champions of the same class or shakes the definitions of classes.

RamRanchDressingApr 27, 20173 votes

I remember a champion that looked a little like this Kindred

XonraApr 28, 20172 votes

I forget she is a champ most of the time after all the bats they took to her.

Lee Sin is a champ I'll sadly never be allowed to forget about.

Vellich0rApr 26, 20173 votes

Very brace of you, sadly I'm afraid most people have selective memories and forget how many times lee and graves have been legitimately nerfed. Lee was terrible for the better part of this season and graves has been in and out of the meta since his rework, but for some reason these champions are special in that the community jumps on them as soon as they are popular. Personally I almost want to see them removed from the game for a full season to prove that people will only find a new "omg why is never needed?" Champion.

Troll for TrumpApr 26, 20179 votes

Lee is never out of the meta, is the issue.

There's champs like these in every role.

Some champs are just always in the meta. They may not be OPTIMAL, but they're played so much, and are still somehow viable, that they are meta.

Darius, Yasuo, Lee are examples.

Graves isn't, he does dip in and out like a normal champ, just more often after the rework.

KeevalroyApr 27, 20179 votes

Lee was briefly absent during early - mid season 5, then the balance team panicked, nerfed his competition, and buffed him conveniently before Worlds.

Auz the RipperApr 27, 20172 votes

I wouldn't consider darius to "always be in the meta" Whenever sieging, kiting, and poking come into a meta he falls right out.

DarkRitualApr 26, 20176 votes

In addition, a better GA for both Graves and Lee Sin to utilize!

Gosh DarnApr 26, 20174 votes

Why not act now and revert the nerfs later if they drop too low? We've had to put up with this shit for a year, stop promising that X will fix the problem and telling us to wait. Lucian, Graves, Ivern, and Lee Sin are absolutely batshit insane right now.

Skins ProjectApr 27, 20171 votes

Because there's both sides of a coin.

Every time riot has tried to nerf lee sin, well.... The backlash is greater then the QQ on the boards.

Beyond that riot actually has little to no control when it comes to this sort of thing. People think lee sin has a high pickrate in NA?

Try CN. The server that Tencent runs, oh yea, you know Tencent. The Chinese company that bought riot. Lee Sin is literally in every game, not at a 30-50% pick rate. Makes a lot more money too.

3TWarriorApr 27, 20171 votes

actually, Riot never provided the stats via "confidential" status of their sources to not influence player opinion that enough complaints on a specific source would enforce popular or unpopular opinion

however, this is hypocritical in itself as the boards should represent the opinions of the playerbase and there are multiple boards for different languages and locations

in fact, many common issues with the game were predicted in the past just from the non-public but not confidential PBE server, but riot ignored the player outcry.

Skins ProjectApr 27, 20173 votes

not boards.

I honestly don't think boards should represent shit. It's just boards. YES opinions are displayed but boards is truly a minority of players.

Millions of players play this game, and NA boards is one of the most "occupied" boards" even then the populations is likely sub 1mill.

Dark NephthysApr 27, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin and Graves are definitely on our radar. In the upcoming mid-season patch, we will be releasing 3 updated tank junglers and a whole set of item updates which will have an impact on the current meta. We plan on evaluating potential changes from this new world rather than making changes now that might be incorrect once the mid-season meta settles.

Didn't you do meaningful nerfs to even lesser known problem champions in the past right before or on major patches like this one coming up? If so, then it just sounds like Lee is allowed to avoid even that when he needed it. Yes 3 of the tanks are getting big changes, but with LeeSin running around it's going to make their lives hell in the jungle (well maybe not Zac . He might still be fine into Lee) but especially not Sejuani . Unless these changes are going to really improve her in the jungle and make her early game not really really weak then she'll just get destroyed early game by Lee.

I understand that you don't want to make any large changes to champions especially since no one really knows how crazy this Mid-season patch will turn out yet. I just think he could at least get hit with something, even if it is just decrease 5 movement speed, he really doesn't need to be one of the fastest champions on top of 2 dashes and a knock back.

HarrisonOwnsApr 27, 20175 votes

I, like everyone who has been around since S1 or so, is skeptical anything will ever be done about Lee Sin.

Synnx7Apr 27, 20177 votes

Lee win has been on your radar for what. 4 seasons ? You guys just admitted that u wont nerf Lee Win because of LC$ . Now he's on ur radar huh?
Favoritism LV 1000000000000000000

ThilmerApr 27, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Lee win has been on your radar for what. 4 seasons ? You guys just admitted that u wont nerf Lee Win because of LC$ . Now he's on ur radar huh?
Favoritism LV 1000000000000000000

I remember when Sona got reworked. She was on "their radar" for one patch before suffering multiple nerfs. But Lee Sin stays in "their radar" for 4 seasons, and then he gets a legendary skin instead of a nerf.

"The radar"... fucking joke.

Crede777Apr 27, 20172 votes

Lee Sin currently suffers from "Diana" syndrome. Back when Diana got nerfed to the ground, Riot stated that it was because she had damage, mobility, tankiness, and utility all packed into one. Lee Sin is the same way. He is too good (or decent) at too many things.

I think the reason why Riot is slow to address Lee Sin's jack of all trades status is because they view Lee as the epitome of a "difficult" champion to master/play. They want mechanically difficult champions to have higher payoffs than "easy" champions. The problem is that this gap in difficulty is purely a figment of Riot's imagination. Maybe it's because I've been playing at a higher level (Plat/Diamond) for too long that my memory is affected. But no, the challenge doesn't come from any champion's mechanics, it comes from meta play. Rotations, awareness, positioning, etc. These considerations DWARF the relatively tiny gap in champion complexity. No longer is being skillshot reliant a valid excuse for maintaining overall champion strength. League is to the point where juggling ~8 different abilities on the same champ and 3-4 item actives is no longer difficult, especially at higher levels of play.

In fact, I just had this discussion with a friend who is brand new to the game. He was playing Ashe a lot and kept getting frustrated because in teamfights he would die quickly. His positioning was bad and I said that if he has a problem with that, then Ashe probably isn't the best ADC for him. He should look into Ezreal, Lucian, or Caitlyn. But he said that the Riot graph says those champions are much harder than Ashe. I told him that was dumb, that Ashe is far more difficult because of her lack of a dash to get out of sticky situations. But he's right, Riot does promote Ashe as a "starter friendly" ADC despite her complete lack of mobility and utility packed into her ability to kite.

We won't see meaningful change until Riot imposes a uniform champion power budget which allocates the same amount of power to a champion like Ryze as to a champion like Lee Sin. We won't see that until Riot is ready to admit that flashy moves and skillshots rather than point and click abilities don't make a champion difficult.