I gotta say, 20% damage reduction for 4 seconds is pretty insane for dueling

Yeah we need a better solution for a bruiser keystone. Conqueror is "fine" for now until then, but it is definitely not a final solution.

I don't agree with bringing back Fervor though, there's a ton of bruisers who simply can't use it effectively and it favors fighters way more.

[{quoted}](name=Rainbow Slayer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xyJyeG5B,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2019-01-21T12:59:47.559+0000)

Show me any match where you've seen someone deal 2,000 damage to a Jungler before 40 minutes?

Also I hope you realize that Armor and Magic Resist is capable of negating far more than 20% of a damage source. When considering gold per minute paired with sub-par purchases available for Junglers (Two items for 700g, no combat stats. Another upgrade into an item once again with no combat stats for another 300g).

Do the comparisons. With 1,000 gold spent on a Skirmishing Saber, you could have a Chain Vest or Negatron Cloak which will negate far more than a 20% single target reduction. You could also have almost 3 Longswords which would easily outdamage Red Smite. Both Blasting Wand and Fiendish Codex also give more per stat value.

Even if you want to go "late game" when players deal more damage, every single Jungle item falls off and is less effective late game. They're all mid game items with low effectiveness late game. Bloodrazor is a worse version of Blade of the Ruined King. Cinderhulk deals less damage than its counterpart Sunfire Cape. Warrior's enchantment is a much worse version of Maw and Death's Dance. Then lastly we have Runic, which is a much much much worse version of Luden's Echo.

Junglers make less gold and have far worse itemization, they are compensated by having extra effects on their Smite. In my eyes, it looks perfectly fine. There's nothing "overpowered" or "broken" about it. They take hits in other areas which are made up for by having a little sustain and survivability on their Smite. The Jungler's job is to be part of the game, so that they are not forced to AFK farm the entire match.

Tell me what you would rather see -- a Jungle who can only gank once per lane phase to prevent falling behind, or a Jungle who can actually stay healthy enough to gank and has enough damage to feel comfortable doing so?

There's always consequences for everything and if Riot removed anything from Red Smite Jungler's aren't even going to purchase Jungle items anymore. Instead you'll be seeing Jungle's who don't give a shit about anyone that just farm all game long to ensure that by mid to late game they have items to be impactful in matches.

Seriously, be careful what you wish for. Most of the people on these boards think they've thought about everything but reality is they don't know anything about what's really going to happen when Riot listens to the bullshit they are spewing.

Lame. Jg is too powerful already. And you said name one jg champ that can do 2k damage before 49 mins. I can name more than one LMAO. Yi, tryn, eve, graves, twitch, Jax...should I keep going or do you now realize how dumb you sound?

[{quoted}](name=Rainbow Slayer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xyJyeG5B,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2019-01-21T12:59:47.559+0000)

Show me any match where you've seen someone deal 2,000 damage to a Jungler before 40 minutes?

Also I hope you realize that Armor and Magic Resist is capable of negating far more than 20% of a damage source. When considering gold per minute paired with sub-par purchases available for Junglers (Two items for 700g, no combat stats. Another upgrade into an item once again with no combat stats for another 300g).

Name a smite that gives armor and magic resist.

There is no comparison to other items if you are building a jungle item because you almost have to as a jungler, the only comparison is red smite to blue smite...

I can tell you someone who can do a lot more. .

Oh wait, did i tell one too many?

Junglers make less gold and have far worse itemization, they are compensated by having extra effects on their Smite. In my eyes, it looks perfectly fine.

That's the point. Junglers don't deserve any compenstation for their smaller gold gains and less stat-efficient items, because those two things are supposed to compensate everyone else for inherent advantage junglers have in solo Q with their priviledge of being able to apply pressure around the map and securing end-game objectives.

Level 11 hits R....while naked.

You realise the passive effect of Death's Dance is literally to delay 30% of all damage taken. Not a significantly higher amount than the 20% on Red Smite and unlike Red Smite you still take damage after the smite wears off. That's before mentioning Red Smite is only 650 gold once you factor in the 350 you have to spend on a jungle item anyway while Death's Dance is 3500 gold meaning you wait a significantly longer time than Red Smite to get any defensive benefit. Sure, the defensive benifits from Red Smite are lower than Death's Dance (unless you build Cinder from it) but it also costs only 1k gold, less than 30% the price of a Death's Dance, even less when you factor in the price of your starting item.

Its power comes primarily from early game, where you'll likely either be targeting one person or have 1-2 people targeting you. In the first case it adds more damage than any other item you could spend 650 gold on with a few edge cases, Riven is actually one of these where her AD ratios are high enough that two longswords can be better if you land enough AAs, but even there the defensive benifits of Red Smite put it over the edge in most cases. The simple fact is in the early game 140-200 true damage is a lot and it's hard to get that sort of damage out of items. Additionally a 20% DR makes or breaks duels, if you have say, 800 HP in a theoretical situation and your opponent's combo deals 500 damage + they AA for 75 then without red smite they kill you in 4 AAs, if you Red Smite before their combo it takes them at least 6 AAs even if no reduction is applied to a single AA. That's extremely significant.

Do you know what the global win rate on that item is as of this patch? It's 57.0%. It's one of the highest win rates of any item in the entire game currently.

People only buy Death's Dance when they're winning. That's why. If you're losing you're more likely to take an item that's less expensive or a defensive choice to try to avoid being knocked out of the game.

Of course Red Smite has a significantly lower win rate. It's a standard choice for almost every if not every champion in the jungle. If both junglers buy an item in almost every game it inherently stabilises at a 50% winrate since one has to win and one has to lose.

Just posting stats isn't enough, you also have to understand how to interpret stats. It's rarely as simple as 'the best thing has the highest winrate' unless we're talking about specifically champions who are really out of line. Even in the case of really overpowered items they tend to be close to 50% winrate since there's a high chance that both teams will build them. Niche items designed to make you win a game you're already winning harder will get the best winrates while items designed to stop you losing games you're already losing will get the worst simply because most players will only buy them when they're already winning or losing respectively, and the fact that they're already winning or losing has a bigger effect on the game than the items themselves.