I'd like Lissandra's insane safety with Aftershock to be addressed but...

Z3Sleeper·Nov 15, 2018·80 votes·19,250 views

don't bother touching her until you address the main reasons she's running it in the first place .

87 Comments

Beatrice fallsNov 15, 201832 votes

I really love how you guys are meta sheep + hypocrites. I've been running Aftershock on mages who have to go in Fiddlesticks Lissandra Zyra and been called a troll / garbage / noob

Now suddenly a random korean does it and everyone thinks it's broken. I'm glad I don't play this game anymore, garbage like this pisses me off beyond beliefs.

AlzonNov 15, 201811 votes

You’re not the only one :/

SnowdriftNov 16, 201826 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P58heH4b,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-15T23:08:30.353+0000)

I really love how you guys are meta sheep + hypocrites. I've been running Aftershock on mages who have to go in and been called a troll / garbage / noob

Now suddenly a random korean does it and everyone thinks it's broken. I'm glad I don't play this game anymore, garbage like this pisses me off beyond beliefs.

Reminds me of when they first reworked Ashe years ago and my teammates would complain about me buying hurricane on her because I saw how it interacted with her q and it continued until pros started playing her and building it; same thing happened with Kalista and hurricane. Everyone was so set that the item was so bad and didn’t consider how it interacts with certain abilities. It is very interesting how quick people are to change

SucctionNov 16, 20183 votes

I was building Trinity on Fiora back in pre season 6 :'(, the same thing happened to me.

Automated RivenNov 16, 20182 votes

I still build Trinity force on Lucian. It's not bad. I got pinged hardcore last time.

Lil Homie bustaNov 16, 20184 votes

Man, as long as a build make sense, there's no point in not using it.

For example, Lifesteal Yasuo: Fleet F., Overheal, Lifesteal Legend, double dorans early and Bloodthirster as 3rd item, Mercury S. afterwards. It works wonderfully, even against GW, but people think it's trash because it doesn't have the "obligatory" conqueror.

Or like Last Stand being "bad" because it isn't popular.

SnowdriftNov 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lil Homie busta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P58heH4b,comment-id=000000010002,timestamp=2018-11-16T12:03:23.285+0000)

Man, as long as a build make sense, there's no point in not using it.

For example, Lifesteal Yasuo: Fleet F., Overheal, Lifesteal Legend, double dorans early and Bloodthirster as 3rd item, Mercury S. afterwards. It works wonderfully, even against GW, but people think it's trash because it doesn't have the "obligatory" conqueror.

Or like Last Stand being "bad" because it isn't popular.

My lethal tempo jinx gets pinged every now and then... it has a higher winrate than fleet but a much lower pick but it gives her some nice trading power with her q+lethal and it’s even crazier with her passive rolling. Before they made it so her passive no longer stacks I got her up to 7 attack speed at full build with it; it’s nuts

a sheepJan 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Reminds me of when they first reworked Ashe years ago and my teammates would complain about me buying hurricane on her because I saw how it interacted with her q and it continued until pros started playing her and building it; same thing happened with Kalista and hurricane. Everyone was so set that the item was so bad and didn’t consider how it interacts with certain abilities. It is very interesting how quick people are to change

its just how humans work, and i hate it

Automated RivenNov 16, 201821 votes

You think that aftershock is bad. You shoulda tried lissandra with CoTC when it was still in the game. That shit was dumb as fuck. I loved every second of it.

Spicy RiceNov 16, 20181 votes

Ahh yes, cancer of the colossus.

I too enjoyed getting 190 + 7% of my max hp as a shield

Automated RivenNov 16, 20183 votes

Per enemy champion. That shield was massive. Easilly 50-60% of your max HP.

NevrankroatonNov 16, 201814 votes

Honestly, I don't see how it is intolerable that a mage invest in a defensive rune that synergize well with their kit when say mage is someone who need to go in and use it in lane to trade with assassin. Many people complain about the dmg runes, I feel it is fair that a mage using aftershock get the right to have this buff of tankyness when successfully using their hard CC.

It is used on Lissandra for a reason as you say.

Oakleaf RangerNov 16, 20185 votes

People hate it because it empowers Lissandra's obnoxious aspect, her ability to gap close very reliably and CC you.

Her W might as well be a point and click snare because all she needs to do is use E to get in your face to make avoiding it impossible unless you have some method to dodge it point blank.

But don't worry if that was too much of an issue because her ultimate is a point and click stun just incase you some how found a way to fuck up using W point blank in someone's face.

Oh by the way, this whole time Lissandra has been CCing you the enemy jungler has been strolling up to you to finish you off because you can't move for until 20 years pass.

Fuck whenever Lissandra is good because its only when she can do this shit effectively in the meta that she sees play.

Zach xDNov 16, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name=Oakleaf Ranger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P58heH4b,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-11-16T08:06:44.253+0000)

People hate it because it empowers Lissandra's obnoxious aspect, her ability to gap close very reliably and CC you.

I'd argue people hate it because they can't one-shot her with their assassins in this matchup.

Her W might as well be a point and click snare because all she needs to do is use E to get in your face to make avoiding it impossible unless you have some method to dodge it point blank.

Her claw has to be one of the slowest missile speed spells in the game; you can literally walk away from it. It's like saying that Anivia is too strong because her E hits so hard, while ignoring the condition that has to be fulfilled in order for that to be true.

But don't worry if that was too much of an issue because her ultimate is a point and click stun just incase you some how found a way to fuck up using W point blank in someone's face.

Most ultimates do powerful things, and generally ultimates from most of the mid lane roster will kill you much faster, or immediately.

Oh by the way, this whole time Lissandra has been CCing you the enemy jungler has been strolling up to you to finish you off because you can't move for until 20 years pass.

"Lissandra's jungler might come while she's fighting her laner. Nerf Lissandra." You could just as easily tell your jungler to come, bait her claw, and kill her after since she has no outs after she goes in with it.

Fuck whenever Lissandra is good because its only when she can do this shit effectively in the meta that she sees play.

Even on the worlds stage, Lissandra was a niche pick. Teams weren't priority picking Lissandra, they were picking her either to play to Kaisa synergy (ally immobilizing effects apply Kaisa passive), or to contain Irelia & Leblanc with Aftershock.

Oakleaf RangerNov 16, 20183 votes

Everybody hates it, not just assassins. If anything assassins care less because most actually have a way to deal with it.

Except lissandra E has no condition and it is only slow enough to walk away from if she does it from a far enough range. So now you have to keep a certain distance from her at all times whenever you don't know where the jg is because unless you have flash your one gank away from get fuckedville.

Yah well considering that anivia Q is as large a lux E than yah people are going to hate Anivia E.

So your saying the counter play to Lissandra is a counter gank...

That could be said about any champion. Worse your whole plan relies on Lissandra using E and also taking it.

Didn't take it? Guess the counter gank doesn't work and I'm still in the same situation once it comes back up.

Zach xDNov 16, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Oakleaf Ranger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P58heH4b,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-16T09:36:12.293+0000)

Everybody hates it, not just assassins. If anything assassins care less because most actually have a way to deal with it.

Hyperbole, and non-assassin (mages) are more effective at dealing with Lissandra in general; they don't have to go into range of Lissandra to harass her. Lissandra's spells have a short range.

Except lissandra E has no condition and it is only slow enough to walk away from if she does it from a far enough range. So now you have to keep a certain distance from her at all times whenever you don't know where the jg is because unless you have flash your one gank away from get fuckedville.

To quote your previous argument: "Her W might as well be a point and click snare because all she needs to do is use E to get in your face to make avoiding it impossible unless you have some method to dodge it point blank."

-You're saying all she has to do is use E to close the gap. -you can walk away from her E if she isn't on top of you -If she casts E close to you, it's hard to dodge (how did she get close in the first place without it?)

If Lissandra is casting E from close range, you've already allowed her to walk close to you.

Yah well considering that anivia Q is as large a lux E than yah people are going to hate Anivia E.

I'm not even sure how you begin to compare Lux E with Anivia Q. The comparison pretty much starts and ends with "skill shots that deal magic damage". Lux E has a much faster travel time. If you take issue with Anivia Q (and Lissandra E), I think reaction time might be an issue here. Those abilities are molasses slow unless they're casting them literally on top of you.

So your saying the counter play to Lissandra is a counter gank...

No, the counter play to Lissandra is to abuse her short range. Alternatively you can also shove her in and force her to spend mana pushing back the wave (her mana costs are high to budget her passive).

That could be said about any champion. Worse your whole plan relies on Lissandra using E and also taking it.

No, it doesn't rely on this at all, I was giving an example of how to punish her. If she throws E and doesn't take it, she's out a gap closer for 18~ seconds.

Didn't take it? Guess the counter gank doesn't work and I'm still in the same situation once it comes back up.

You beat Ahri by punishing her in the 8~ window her charm is down. It's even easier with Lissandra, her window is 18~ seconds.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 16, 20181 votes

welcome to the boards where cancerous designs are wished back for despite there being a reason they are kept in the trashcan. Lissandra is one of those examples. There is a reason why she got effectively removed from the game yet somehow people come out of the woodwork and demand lissandra to be good again now she is good without the new passive.

3TWarriorNov 16, 20182 votes

#wasn't she weakened because she is a generalist that the pros liked and had two point and click crowd controls(one of which she can turn into a zhonya's), making her a reliable pick against flashier, more mobile champions ?

twisted fate has some of the lowest numbers in the game for a mage, yet his kit has always been healthy. What was wrong with it? It was too powerful in competitive and they refused to nerf his ultimate, basically turning his only selling point into "not as" gold reliant and early game focused

Riot has stopped justifying a lot of their balance decisions for the game ever since late season 5.

They nerfed Yorick for having a 60% winrate in bronze (without any power shifts or compensation), and yet, he's an objective focused champion, something that SHOULD win in bronze and fall off the less the player has to offer

they removed banner of command. It was never a problem until they INTRODUCED A PROBLEM, and instead of fixing the problem as they should have, they removed the item outright

Z3SleeperNov 17, 20181 votes

Agreed on all points. Every single one of those are examples of Riot contradicting previous balance decisions and philosophies that they preached to us on other occasions.

Tr4shB4NSYST3MNov 16, 20188 votes

you forgot Akali

DM For Rat FactsNov 16, 20184 votes

I like how riot hq isn't on fire after the akali rework, the one that needed 17 nerfs and still is dominant in solo queue.

God bless our firefighters.

kargishNov 16, 20186 votes

I know people don't like truth but...

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/akali/all

JJI744Nov 16, 20182 votes

Don't bother. You will get two possible responses.

People will point out that if you look at Diamond+ only, and then look at people with 50+ games on Akali, her winrate is really high. Even if for 99.99% of the playerbsae she's a bad champion.
A champ can apparently be OP even with one of the games worst winrates. Somehow.

HeimerLmaoNov 16, 20181 votes

I wouldn't say she is broken, rather, she is just extremely toxic and unfun to play against. This goes for her sustain, true stealth, infinite e recast range and a ministun on her ult. If these parts went away, she could be buffed in some place, but right now, if she was buffed, her banrate would instantly double.

Z3SleeperNov 17, 20182 votes

You have to look at all data, not just winrate. The pick and ban rates alone are enough indication that something is off.

OP =/= over 50% winrate

JJI744Nov 17, 20182 votes

It really does. A champ can be overbearing, meta restricting, overpopular(kinda a weird one), or frustrating to play vs with a poor winrate...

But you really really can't say 'This champ is so OP, they lose more than almost any other champ there is'

And for 99.99% of the playerbase, Akali is really weak.

3TWarriorNov 17, 20181 votes

the player said that akali was dominant, not that she was overpowered. She has a really high pick rate and ban rate with a mechanic added to her with no intended purpose other than to break the rules of the game

she can go invisible at will, is not targetable even after true sight (does it even reveal her? ) and can attack freely under towers (which you at least needed SOME bulk for previously)

her kit numbers aren't a problem, her shroud is. They could probably keep the same designs and bump up her numbers if they removed the "true stealth" mechanic..

give "true stealth" to any other champion and watch their pick rate and ban rate SKYROCKET!

no to toxicNov 16, 20181 votes

Just ignore the banrate and pickrate cause this is lol boards double digit IQs need not apply

demoted to ironNov 16, 20186 votes

Yeah playing off-meta gets you flamed a lot. I've been playing Trundle jungle for about a year or two now and people would flame me and blame losses on the pick, then someone in LCS picks it up and it's all fine when I play it suddenly.

http://prntscr.com/lj0vms

people for some reason think picking meta over comfort is better in soloq. At most ranks I find it isn't.

3TWarriorNov 16, 20182 votes

which is kind of beyond stupid considering he has some of the strongest dueling abilities for a jungler with his Q and W then post 6 it's pretty much a guaranteed kill if anyone other than a dedicated duelist (like jax, fiora, etc) try to fight him one on one or 1 v 2

l MrD lNov 16, 20186 votes

its one of the most annoying things that happens .... whenever theres something strong because its good at dealing with a problem ... the cure gets fixed rather than the actual problem ._.

Daddy AntsNov 16, 20185 votes

Here's how you fix Aftershock ranged champions -

Resistances granted are reduced by 50% for Ranged Champions

This way things like Aftershock Lissandra and Aftershock Fiddlesticks become less safe but melee who use aftershock like Leona, Alistar, Blitzcrank aren't punished for something that's being abused by ranged champions who are supposed to be squishy.

HungryAngry2SPPNov 16, 20181 votes

What about Tresh?

Daddy AntsNov 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What about Tresh?

I dunno how they could make it work for Thresh unless he's special cased as melee for the sake of aftershock.

3TWarriorNov 16, 20181 votes

he's ranged, at least according to everything else that uses the system

ThefrostyvikingNov 16, 20185 votes

Correction OP, Aftershock liss......and perhaps similar picks, are basically necessary as long as there are assassins/divers capable of blowing up the short range mages near instantly.

Rengar Diana Zed Evelynn MonkeyKing Yasuo Akali

When any of these is any good or just slightly ahead they just instantly delete anything they get near supported by easily accessible gap closers and defensive tools or just a lot of mobility.

Zhonya? I´ve Seen Zed´s ult in,have his target use the timeglass,drop his W shadow, stand and wait ontop of the zhonya or nearby then Q to have the poor bugger explode from the triple Q+electrolute+E, and even if they survive its definitely time to recall ASAP.

Others can easily do similar things, albeit not from such a range.

Aftershock liss is so gratifying because even if you dont have a lot of damage you can still take more than 2-3 hits and make it through, doesnt matter if the assasssins made a epic outplay consisting of jumping around madly 10 times in a row as long as your W or R lands it possible to fight back.

And she does trade kill pressure for it, trying to get someone who doesnt over commit is hella hard.

Z3SleeperNov 16, 20182 votes

Yeah it's not just lb and irelia, those are just the prime cases.

ŚhunpoNov 16, 20181 votes

Liss was previously good into assassins.....even during the times when they were THE best picks for insta-gibs. However, I'd blame her lack of success on her being nerfed and then not seeing any positive attention for almost a year and a half, while almost every other champ around her saw change.

There's no reason to have this newbie safety net on Liss which allows you to win even if you screw up. That's all Aftershock is, and it's disgusting. Nerf Aftershock and give Liss some love.

ThefrostyvikingNov 16, 20182 votes

Liss has almost always been good into assassins but she got a repeated round of LCS caused nerf hammer like seju/azir and ended up being ridiculously punished for any mistakes as a result.

Like she was always good against Zed when it came to surviving him in lane, or Fizz even.

But, depending on her state and the opposing assassins´s winning the game overall was a completely different question.....one that was answered by her not being the winner most of the time.

I mean what good is being able to smoothly survive a unfed Zed when he is so strong that he can quickly ram out waves and gank bot getting 1-2 kills before coming back having barely missed anything, a few rounds of that and he is so fed that nothing you do matters.

So basically Lissandra cant actually be buffed at all, like chances are instead she´ll be nerfed pretty hard.....just because Aftershock makes her a easily accessible assassin counter.

Even if the stats gained were halved for ranged it would still work for her given her kit.

I am just kinda dismayed because it means she will basically be given the Seju treatment which stinks like ....hydrogen sulfide.

ŚhunpoNov 17, 20182 votes

And that's exactly why you don't give champions more than 2 CC abilities within their kit.

ThefrostyvikingNov 17, 20181 votes

I mean even if riot were to do something like,,,,,,make it so that her ult doesnt proc aftershock i doubt much would actually change.

The issue is just how easy it is to use when it actually matters.

Its the same thing that made it the "must pick" for so many tanks for so long when it was released.

ŚhunpoNov 17, 20181 votes

I mean personally I just think that both Colossus and Aftershock were/are overtuned. They should just replace it with an actual defensive keystone that maybe doesn't deal damage and reduces damage while it's active. Idk, just something that doesn't allow for non-tanks to abuse it.

ThefrostyvikingNov 17, 20181 votes

The damage component is fairly negligible, however giving it a effect like stoneplate where it reduces damage during its uptime is a interesting and in my mind, fairly good idea.

Lissandra doesnt actually kill opponents easily with aftershock at all unless fed, rather she lets them rush her, slam their heads bloody into her massively inflated resistances while grinding them down while its ongoing.

A reduction in damage prevents the ability to grind them down, however i am a bit discontent as viable counters to assassins are still needed and aftershock liss really fits the bill well.

I mean malz is basically gone, he doesnt exist,,,,,,,he just farms, farms, flash ult, then keeps farming.

Lissandra is super reliant on aftershock to properly contest the assassins, i mean if she has nothing except ult then chances are she either plays like malzahar only going forward with her jungle for a certain death CC chain or she ends up being given the zhonya deal.

Being that she blows up the moment the invulnerability goes down.

No other midlane mage really handles assassins well except possibly Ahri i guess since her mobility is a pretty good answer to most problems.

ŚhunpoNov 17, 20181 votes

I just want Liss to go back to being great against assassins without Aftershock. With Aftershock she's just anti-fun to play against, at least pre-nerf it felt like a somewhat skill expressive matchup if you were an assassin. I like playing passive as an assassin vs Liss, but with Aftershock it's pretty much impossible to do anything else but roam since she eventually stonewalls the lane due to Aftershock and her Q spam clearing waves so quickly.

Nerf/Remove/Rework Aftershock and buff Liss properly. I actually liked playing Liss before they nerfed her into the ground....

ThefrostyvikingNov 17, 20181 votes

Issue with liss is that before she got nerfed to the ground she was one step short of being a azir/ryze lvl problem in pro play.

Its a bit dismal but i am sure that she needs a full on rework to prevent that from happening over and over, especially once her new passive gets launched.

ŚhunpoNov 17, 20181 votes

Just rework her W tbh, it's her least skill expressive ability within her kit and it just naturally makes her anti-fun to face for a lot of specific champions/classes. Every other ability she has is absolutely fine.

ThefrostyvikingNov 17, 20181 votes

Big issue is her ult, much like malz it just shuts things down and people absolutely detest playing against it.

So much like old seju her powerbudget is consumed by it.

And i think its only going to get worse with the new passive x)

LumikoNov 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Correction OP, Aftershock liss......and perhaps similar picks, are basically necessary as long as there are assassins/divers capable of blowing up the short range mages near instantly.

When any of these is any good or just slightly ahead they just instantly delete anything they get near supported by easily accessible gap closers and defensive tools or just a lot of mobility.

Zhonya? I´ve Seen Zed´s ult in,have his target use the timeglass,drop his W shadow, stand and wait ontop of the zhonya or nearby then Q to have the poor bugger explode from the triple Q+electrolute+E, and even if they survive its definitely time to recall ASAP.

Wow you are the first who actually gets it.

I think the true problem is we don't really have defensive items for mages. Yes there are item 3157 and item 3102 BUT. An AD assasin can have : item 3156 item 3139 item 3814 item 3111 . We can all argue about Zhonya's invincibility but it has almost double the cd as Maw which will most likely save an anlready slippery assasin. Also can get them out of cc which would be the only chance to kill them if they fail and get cought. can prevent them from getting cc-d. Then there are the boots. They don't really care about boots they will have plenty of damage with item 3111 . So ofc more free MR. But mages do need that magic pen. With all those defense for poor assasins all these item 3165 item 3135 item 3151 item 3020 are needed to actually make damage. But the cost and effectiveness in these items are way on the assasin favour.

Most of the time as i see a mage either goes item 3089 and does more damage but dies more to assasins or goes item 3157 and watches as the team carries his ass because you won't deal damage. Mages already have to deal with mana management on lane while the assasins have energy and can freely spam ranged pokes at you until you are low enough for a combo. Or just all in you on lvl 2-3 cus magical powespike.

But assasins get everything while building mr . Apart from the effects they get a lot of AD they get lethality even some lifesteal.

I understand the "Risk and Reward" thing Riot had in mind but where is the Risk in this? All i see is more and more Reward for assasins.

[zombie-brand-mindblown] [sg-lux-2]

PoskeNov 16, 20184 votes

{quoted}

don't bother touching her until you address the main reasons she's running it in the first place .

CHUCKLES

Lissandra was better assassin then assassins were AS FKING LCS SHOWED

She was more efficient pick then Ahri, Le blanc, Fizz, Ekko, Zoe (Alto zoe just got buffed so that is probably not true anymore) She could do everything this champions do while also being spam CC machine with low cooldowns

If people complain about Azir always having his fking escape on. Then complain about lissandra to

And yes Aftershock is a good keystone. Been running it on irelia for example 70 armor and mr every time I hit E or 1000-2000 more damage per game due to conqueror... I mean if conq increased my damage to like 6500 more per game I WOULD RUN it ... thats how good Aftershock is. Also running it on riven

Le blanc has really low ammount of winning midlane matchups, if you think lissandra is some sort of miracle counterpick she aint

Akali shits on LB (Obvious as fk) Anivia shits on LB (Well known) Annie shits on LB(You can never one shot annie through dmg reduction E but she can oneshot you) AurelionSol shits on LB (Well known) Azir LB has lane advantage just good luck winning lane so hard that you ll match azir Gotta love pyroclasam bouncing. Shits on her eventho he aint good mid Cassiopeia Shits on LB (its hard to match cass damage yet she outscales you) + W Chogath Cho is lowkey secret broken pick, after certain minute enemy team ll have season2 level of tank Diana Shits on LB Galio Shits on LB Ekko Doesnt shit on LB, YAY we finally found something which I would recc picking lb in (BTW i am multiple times #1 LB world) Karthus Shits on LB unless karthus is retarded (many are and do some wierd full mana spike at minute 50 builds). You have to beat him really hard in order to have higher game presence then karthus did Kassadin Shits on LB (well known) Kayle Shits on LB (Doesnt have to be played mid) Lissandra Shits on LB

To keep it short LB is already horrible pick into 80% of mids. Lissandra being OP Doesnt correlate to her being a counterpicked to a single champion in a game with 130 champions,

Many champions also do well in Irelia. both LB and irelia are overated picks (specially LB) Irelia has massive teamfight potentional but it usually ends there at potentional

Frozen DivaNov 16, 20184 votes

It's the only answer to BS like Akali Diana Fizz Irelia Leblanc Katarina MasterYi Zed Yasuo Talon .