Cassiopeia, the forgotten one?

Canastus··26 votes·1,987 views

Since Stashu's last thread has disappeared a good week ago, I'll have to bring up my most recent concerns in a different manner - in a new thread, that is.

I'd like to discuss the current progress on her rework, or to be precise its apparent lack thereof. You and Morello promised us an update on the PBE in the course of a week - exactly 7 days have passed since then and still no trace of Cass changes. The recent wave of updates only adds to further frustration and overall disappointment, to say the least. Another thing which I must point out is the total neglection she has recieved during those last 3 patches (counting 4.20 aswell), she's still stuck with horrendous manacosts (mostly her E) - the least you could do is lower them, even if it'd be a temporary solution.

Here's some feedback in case you haven't listened before: you NEED to get rid of that passive. In its current state it only rewards snowballing due to its heavy dependence on itemization. Since her lanephase is anything but decent, you'll have a hard time getting the necessary gold to even purchase those much needed items. Giving her some free stacks every few seconds, like you're intending to do, doesn't address that problem at all.

Should you still insist to keep this awful passive, you need to change the rewards to flat ap-gains (+50/+100/+250 on each milestone, they wouldn't stack however). That'd be the only way to ensure that she actually gets stronger once she has finished gathering stacks, no matter how bad her build may look like. And even if you're doing well with the current one, the most you'll get from this passive are 100 additional AP the moment you reach the stackcap. Veigar already gets that much from laning, and you expect her to turn into a hypercarry all of a sudden from this pitiful reward alone? That's just not good enough.

Her kit was initially created to fullfill the role of a poison-mage, one with an actually strong lanephase (if played skillfully) to compensate for later shortcomings due to lack of mobility and short range which automatically puts her at an disadvantage against groups of enemies. Infact most of her damage came from landing her poison, her E only served as a tool to finish off weakened opponents. And yet you try to push her into a direction which constantly forces her to remain in a situation where all of her handicaps become as apparent as ever, all thanks to that sole focus on her Twin Fangs.

I'm aware that you're trying to get some of that power on her poison back but by channeling all of its potential into her E, you're just making things worse for her. You already halved her poison-damage before, and now you're expecting her to go into short range for the entirety of the game just for some questionable compensation that isn't even mana-efficient for her? She has zero safety which is unheard of for any other hypercarry in the game. Her ultimate is delayed and can easily be avoided, she has no gapclosers/reliable escape-tools and her damage-output is far too unreliable since it requires you to poison a target first to enable her E-spam.

No matter how low her cooldowns may get later on, they're still too high to make it work once you're in a teamfight. Now add some reoccuring mobility creep to the mix and you're bound to miss some of those skillshots. That's more than enough to render her useless and even helpless in a teamfight - you leave her absolutely zero room for mistakes. Try comparing this performance to that of actual hypercarries like Vayne or Tristana who can actually peel for themselves and aren't hindered by having to land skillshots. Also they aren't restricted by absurd manacosts since all of their damage comes from auto-attacks alone which also allows them to change their target anytime without having to fullfill any conditions.

Cassiopeia will never truly function as a hypercarry as long as you keep her focus on having to land short range Twin Fangs while constantly exposing herself to the entire enemy team. She's a literal glasscannon, in the end it doesn't matter how fed you are. And even then she can't melt tanks fast enough once they stick to her, that's all it takes to remove her from the map. Not a single mistake goes unpunished in the lategame (you know, that stage of the game where she's supposed to become relevant), infact it's enough to lose an entire game. And just because her Flash happened to be on cooldown.

If you expect me to jump through so many hoops just to get that far, you better make her endgame worthwhile. Enemies have a much easier time shutting her down once they approach their own lategame (pretty much the opposite of what you aimed for) where all it takes it a single cc to blow someone up. You see the problem there?

Your hypercarry fantasy has far too many flaws to actually work. You NEED to shift your focus on her other abilities if you expect her to survive in a lategame environment. I strongly suggest reading Grand Eleven's post on how to approach this matter so that she may become a monster again, capable of melting entire teams. Now that's what you'd expect from an actual hypercarry, wouldn't you agree?

25 Comments

Grand Eleven6 votes

Aside from mechanic specifics I think cadence is a real concern at this point. I completely understand and "get" that a mistake caused the most recent changes to get dropped from PBE which is leaving a lot of people a bit bitter ... but I think that bitterness is rooted in a few factors:

  • Pace of updates is slow. The amount of tweaks that have occurred since this update started is extremely low considering how immediate the feedback is/was and how long this has been going on for (I don't have dates here ... but it certainly feels that way).
  • Work between updates feels non-existent. While the exercise of conversation has improved greatly (and thanks you), the results of those discussions aren't nearly as visible. Changes are proposed by Riot, and regardless of feedback we still have to wait for them to completely roll through PBE and (presumably) Live before new ones are considered.
  • The kit feels mostly static. While the initial refresh gave us a new passive and new ratios for every ability plus base stats, every subsequent change has been minor. This is related to the previous factor ... but a chunk of us feel the changes need to be much more dramatic than what is coming down the pipe.

We seem to be stuck in an almost "stubborn cycle". Someone seems to be clinging to this idea "that it could still work" without looking at if it should work. Rather than ramble on what that means to me I feel like I should pointing at your own dev blogs:

Reminagining SIon: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/champion-update/dev-blog-reimagining-sion

Reading something like this then coming back to where we are at ... are we slowing down these dev cycles too soon? Do we honestly think we've hit the right notes? Am I looking too deep? Ignoring the scale ofthe sion rework (his goes much MUCH deeper than Cass will go, I fully understand that), the attention to theme and how it permeates through not just art but kit is not something I feel is out of reach and should be the bar we are trying to hit.

Canastus3 votes

Glad to see you here, your last post in that other thread is a great concept in itself on how to deal with this rework in a healthy manner. It's too bad neither Morello nor Stashu ever took their time to respond to it, one of the reasons why I intend to bring it up.

Those constant delays and excuses get really tiresome, we've been waiting long enough and they still can't present us any actual results in a playable enviroment. If you ask me, they're not trying hard enough. We're already approaching season 5 and we STILL don't have a fixed Cassiopeia, that's simply sad.

Did they ever consider applying some compensation buffs, even if they're still busy with trying to figure out how to make ANOTHER rework work? If it were me, I would have already reverted the damn thing during 4.18, it has gone too far already. It's a downright nerf and there's no denying it.

Cassiopeia NEEDS to kite people with her poison, not with her Twin Fangs. She needs that layer of safety and distance, otherwise she will never properly function with her current kit.

yellowbricks5 votes

Keep fighting the good fight, peeps. Every day that passes I lose more faith in stashu and riot as a whole (it's deep in the negatives at this point). The passive has to go, there's no way to make it feel good to the player at all, because stacks should not be a gating mechanism like this.

Serpents Embrace5 votes

If i may add a additional concern here; one that i find is probably overlooked by a lot of people:

The Dragon change in the new season. A lot of focus will sadly swift over to pick strong laners, that also deal lots of damage in a teamfight (dragon fight) and are able to sustained damage.

Sustained Damage?! Isnt that Cassios catchphase? No, sadly not. Because first off all the Damage early is pityful. Second of all i cant even afford to twinfang my enemy laner in the LANING PHASE with a couple of twin fangs because ill go instantly oom. Im forced to "harass" (more like gathering stacks) with my Q on the enemy laner and lasthit minions with E so i dont run out of mana.

Well sadly youll go instantly oom in a dragonfight - not even enough to kill one person after spamming all your skills and then youll just be dead meat and have to give up dragon. Matter of fact i predict that picking Cass is like giving up the Dragon (as it is already now) only that the future Dragon is way more important.

All in all: If Cassiopeia's early game damage and Mana costs wont get changed shes never be a viable pick in the new season, ever.

Canastus1 votes

I agree, her current state doesn't allow her to take or even defend objectives in a proper way since she lacks the mana to do so. It's absolutely insane how quickly she goes oom. And since there's no way for her to regain mana around a raidboss (besides having blue buff on her), she's pretty much a dead weight during those crucial early teamfights which heavily influence the tone for the later game.

The most recent changes to mana-regen itself could be considered a clear nerf to her performance, too, since she'll be having an even harder time regenerating that much needed resource just to use her terribly overpriced E.

Kowe The Ewok4 votes

I agree. The hypercarry fantasies don't work out. Time already is prove enough. Number buffs won't cover a flawed mechnic.

Maybe it sounds childish, but it makes me sad that I can't Cassiopeia anymore. She was so much fun. Now her playstyle as well as her forced build path are so blunt, dull and boring.

Rubber Jesus3 votes

Great post. It needs more upvotes to get a reply. You are a great advocate for Cass. Thanks!

Llanite3 votes

ONE week without update :NOOOOOOO she is forgotten.

Sorry, I have a good 80 champs that have no update whatsoever since last year.

DaCush3 votes

Forgotten? LOL. She's the most talked about champ by Riot on these boards and has received 2 updates recently as well as receiving another in the near future.

Skrimish103 votes

How about instead of this passive we have right now we could have cassiopeia store charges and the charges can be used to cast e's on unpoisoned targets while still being able to refresh the cooldown as if they were poisoned. If she hits a poisoned target charges aren't consumed.

Canastus4 votes

Sounds good but I don't think it's necessary to implement the mechanic as a passive itself, why not make it part of her E instead? Changing the current passive would require them to reverse the massive nerfs to her ratios and flat damage to compensate for the loss of free stats, I'm not sure they're willing to do that despite all of our efforts to convince them otherwise.

For some strange reason they won't allow her to do deal damage before the 40 minute mark despite having some of the greatest handicaps you can possibly have in this meta, her cast-delay and immobility.

Skrimish101 votes

Yeah having it as a part of the e would make more sense.

Why doesn't riot just bring the old passive back? It helped with mana problems a lot and then we could deal damage before our nexus is destoryed as long as they tweak the ratios back. Hell they could lower her base damage and just increase her ap ratios instead of this garbage passive.

Also, if they want to make her a hypercarry why not have percent health magic dmg on her e?

Saianna3 votes

I gotta say.. I used to love old cassiopeias poison dot.. Now when she's all about twin fang i don't think i'll ever play her..

I really hope that (most of) changes can and will be reversed, at least for her Miasma :C

Killjoysquid2 votes

Try playing her bot lane in place of an adc o.o it works out fine.

AquariusGine2 votes

Ye.. beginning to think they forgot about her again

Creamy Seaman2 votes

Cass is the cancer of mid lane and melees.

questir2 votes

Btw have you guys seen Kalista? How am i supose to hit any Q and duel her as Cassio if she has infinite dashes? Mobilitycreep is getting so retarded these days and i though Yasuo was a problem...

Dreamspitter1 votes

Btw have you guys seen Kalista? How am i supose to hit any Q and duel her as Cassio if she has infinite dashes? Mobilitycreep is getting so retarded these days and i though Yasuo was a problem...

Yas was yasucko until he was BUFFED

NA11 votes

Is 4.21 up on the PBE yet? That's when we should supposedly see some new Cass changes.

TheFrozenIsles1 votes

4.21 started last night as far as I now. It shw five new skins and some changes to Cho R.

Gorsz1 votes

Guys... cass was gutted because of scripters.

End of story... they will NOT remove the passive. The passive is there purposely to gate the power of Cass until very late in the game, so the cheaters will have less effect on the overall match.

The Queen Viper4 votes

Scripters haven't been using her much since it came apparent that everyone and their mother can see when you are casting Twin Fangs from the behind. -.- ,

They have moved on to Ryze, Syndra and Xerath.

Gorsz1 votes

Wrong..... if you read the BoL forums Cass was heavily being used, also you forgot one.

Kat is also being used.

The point is... any champion can be played with scripts, and they gutted Cass simply for being noticable.

questir1 votes

I think we are being too harsh with Stashu here, he showed up and discussed a bunch a week ago and that's good but he said Casseo's new kit was gonna be and push to the PBE for earlier this week but still no signal of anything

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