@Riot - Aren't you forgetting about someone?

Canastus··146 votes·7,528 views

http://imgur.com/6ke3SXP

It's good to see you've finally managed to establish a dialogue between the Mordefans and the guys in charge of his rework. Changing his title (the Iron Revenant) and trying different things on the PBE are indicators that you're TRYING to listen. I'm really glad those guys managed to influence you somehow after their ongoing efforts.

But aren't you forgetting about a certain champion's playerbase? Remember the countless threads and complaints for months nonstop, and yet you haven't even tried to talk to us? It's been over half a year now since you've touched Cass and the only nature of those changes were nerfs of devastating nature. Right now Cassiopeia could easily be considered the Urgot of midlane, she literally receives as little attention or love as he does - may it be in terms of stats or even playstyle, they're extremely similiar.

At least Urgot is scheduled to receive a champion update ala Sion, I wish I could say the same about Cass. I feel that she received the short end of the stick back then in 4.16 when you rushed her rework onto live-servers just to ignore any critique or feedback regarding the direction this rework was taking. Fastforward an entire year and we've almost gone full circle, we're stuck with a heavily neutered champion who resembles the trainwreck you've given us when the rework first launched.

There's absolutely nothing redeeming about playing this champion anymore (infact Azir does her job FAR better despite his nerfs), she feels extremely onedimensional due to her binary playstyle and lacks any depth beyond how effectively you might be able to violate your E-key. Instead of working on her main issues (her lack of mobility, limited range and inherent squishyness aswell as her unreliable ultimate) you've decided to emphasize those weaknesses by making them even worse while delaying her powerspike massively. You also made sure to slap some horrendous manacosts on her.

Gating her progress through two instances (her passive and gold-income) is an extremely unhealthy design and makes playing the champion a literal bore. At least Nasus or Veigar receive their bonuses instantly while Cass has to wait for an undetermined period of time until she finally gets to do something. She also lacks the safety-nets of those champions to even remain relevant once things get hot (inherent tankyness or safe range and reliable aoe-stun).

You may have seen the recent game at Worlds between KOO Tigers and KT Rolster - did you notice how useless Cassiopeia was? Most of the time she simply was unable to get into position due to her lack of mobility which either made her arrive far too late at crucial fights or forced her to abandon her teammates. Also not a single one of her ultimates was able to hit her targets, thanks to the awful cast-delay and short range of the ability. She's far too unreliable and lacks the necessary flexibility of other champions to be considered truly viable.

There are far better champions out there when it comes to filling the nichè of the hypercarry, Kog'Maw and Karthus alone already dish out 10k damage MORE than her on an average basis in the course of an entire game. The game at Worlds went on for 40 minutes and yet there was zero impact from Cassiopeia despite her hitting her lategame passive.

I really don't understand how you can ignore those who mained her FOR YEARS, instead you choose to enforce whatever twisted fantasy of a poison-mage you have without even considering our wishes and concerns. We've literally predicted all of this and you still chose to ignore us. Don't you understand that the only way to make her kit work is by focusing on her poison-abilities?

It's too bad that his champion doesn't even make use of her poison anymore, her Q and W were reduced to tickle-attacks while only serving as a gateway to enable Twin Fang spam. An ability with unreasonable manacosts, short range and strict focus on sinlge target damage. She also can't change targets without poisoning someone beforehand, it's too bad she's instantly removed from the fight once her E goes on cooldown.

It's funny, you're trying to promote a lategame-hypercarry who doesn't even excel at teamfights, infact her winrate hardly reaches 50% even after the 40 minute mark has been passed. And it gets a lot worse the more games you play on her. How exactly is playing Cassiopeia worth our time?

There's so much wrong with this champion and yet you managed to neglect her for the majority of this season now, that needs to change. You've done it for Mordekaiser (at least his playerbase didn't have to wait for half a year to get a response), now it's our turn. At least consider some Cass changes for the upcoming pre-season so that we may finally be able to play this champion again in a way that makes her fun and viable again.

181 Comments

AquariusGine25 votes

So.. when is the next Cassiopeia skin?

Canastus26 votes

32 months and counting, still no new Cass skin. Meanwhile Ahri and co.: annual skin-releases. And let's not forget about Jinx: TWO skins this year. Totally not biased.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

{quoted}

32 months and counting, still no new Cass skin. Meanwhile Ahri and co.: annual skin-releases. And let's not forget about Jinx: TWO skins this year. Totally not biased.

Riot is going to release skins for people who will buy them.

Jinx is one of the most played champions in one of the least diverse, but also guaranteed roles (Cassio isn't a mid laner, she is a DPS mage, which means that of mid lane mains, only those who don't prefer control mages or assassins are actually likely to even play her, let alone buy a skin for her).

Canastus24 votes

We wouldn't be in this terrible mess if Riot would at least care to do something about it. Why would an unviable/unfun champion even be considered likeable? That's the first thing they need to focus on.

Captain Aishi19 votes

sad part is that cass used to be a control mage before her rework :(

RISE Shlack1238 votes

Riot is going to release skins for people who will buy them.

That's a chicken-and-egg process. Don't you get it? If they gave Cass a viable rework and made her actually able to stand toe-to-toe with today's mid laners, people would actually play her. If people play her, they'd buy skins. If Riot would release a new skin, people would buy it.

You can't expect something that hasn't had a new product in nearly 3 years to start selling. You have to make something new.

Business 101.

CubanAnnibal3 votes

Yorick Many years later and counting.......

Melledoneus15 votes

Or rather, when is she shedding a new skin?

You know, because she's a snake... I'm going to leave now.

Auryiel21 votes

Cass' rework was so hilarious bad I just gave up on one of my favorite champions

Riot doesn't give a fuck

All I can hope for is that they never, ever rework other champions I like

Sassmast3r9 votes

Honestly, this is sort of my mindset right now too. I genuinely feel bad for Mordekaiser mains and how dissatisfied they are with his rework, but after seeing Riot literally do nothing about him other than change his title (which took quite a while as well), I seriously have zero expectations for anything in the future. I'm kind of just sitting here, waiting... hoping they don't mess with any of the champions I use anymore. If they did, I might find a new champion to play... or maybe a new game too :P

Bunny Bells21 votes

Bumping because snake lady needs some love.

Her passive no longer reducing mana cost makes it very costly for her to trade and forces her to utilize twin fang as a farming tool.

RedCyclone15 votes

Thank you

I may not like/play Cassiopia, but it's nice to see a meaty post reaching out to her and telling Riot exactly what is wrong with her Much like I am doing with Sona

Hellioning15 votes

I am going to be begging Riot for information at the next live-gameplay Q&A (in two days!)

Anyone else planning on joining me?

Canastus1 votes

So how did that go? I haven't seen a single word about Cass in the respective thread.

Hellioning1 votes

Didn't reply, bleh.

Gonna try again for the next one, but I'm not looking too hopeful.

Canastus2 votes

This is extremely disturbing. If you ask me, it has become an unwritten policy among Rioters to avoid any discussion or questions related to this champion, they've been keeping up with this for over half a year now. They're probably trying to force her into obscurity so that they may bury the corpse without anyone noticing.

Hellioning2 votes

Meddler did respond to a question about Cass a day or two before the Q&A:

Speaking frankly about Cass:

  • We don't believe Cass is in a good state post rework.
    
  • We also don't believe pre-rework Cass was in a good state either.
    
  • We would like to do some work (scale unknown, though extremely unlikely to be a full scale rework) on Cass next year.
    
  • How that work will be prioritized hasn't been determined yet. There are a number of other projects it'd have to be traded off against on either the Live Gameplay (balance) team or the Champion Update (reworks) team (projects like Ryze, Azir, Taric, Yorick etc).
    
  • Even if we do do work on Cass next year I can't offer any promises as to when that might be. Could be some small stuff early in the year and some medium work later, just balance/QoL changes at some indeterminate point, a moderate sized piece of gameplay work late in the year etc.
    

I was just asking for more information, but I guess they're not ready to give that information out yet.

Smitemuffin11 votes

So what if Cass has over 1000 AP? Her ratios sucked anyway

Monkey D Luffy1 votes

Cass is broken.

CasterGilgamesh6 votes

Yasuo

CasterGilgamesh10 votes

Soraka Bless thee Op.Cassiopia is the Meg from family guy of mid laners.

CarameI Frappe9 votes

Cassiopeia was the first character I got to master level 5 with ... She was also the first character to help me reach 30 kills and my first penta achieved.

Not being sarcastic. She used to be something amazing and I loved her. A monster late game that made enemies have to be very cautious in not stepping into my poison or they would have their health bars melted away. Not to mention Cassiopeia can 2v1, if not more depending on how well you position her.

Now? She's utterly useless. In mid lane, I can pick a mid lane champion i'm new to and they'll still outplay her despite my experience in using Cassiopeia. Even if i'm cautious, playing well, and got a nice score going- late game she becomes too squishy and lack luster. In team fights I can't support my team because Q and W can't wear down anyone at this point and the E's are only good if no one stops me. Otherwise i'm not going to be helping anyone and just run away or die. She used to be great, but now she's just ... forgotten. Please update her or change her kit to be improved Riot. I want to play Cass again :( until then i'm using Ahri who's really good (thank god).

Upvoted the thread. This needs to be heard.

The Queen Viper2 votes

Currently Cass is just fine. Not too weak, but not strong either.

Sure, she could have some minor buffs ... mainly to her Q and W. So that she wouldn't be so "one-dimensional."

CarameI Frappe7 votes

She's fine in a 1v1. I've been able to control my lane rather well with Cass. The real issue is when team fights occur or when I need to go all out. Cass doesn't have the mobility. If your E is on CD because someone stuns you- then you're kinda screwed in dishing out damage.

I'm only effective with Cass if i'm in the back, someone's poisoned and spamming my E. If not for my E, no other spells are effective enough to get enemies late game worn down. Especially true against tanks or when my allies are getting hammered. Also my ult is lack luster in team fights before I have to risk jumping in to use it. If I allow enemies to come to me, there's a 1-2 second delay before my ult shoots off. By that time i'm already either dead or getting hit hard.

Cass just needs an improved kit, or rework around Q and W really like you said. If Riot improved her, I could start using my beloved main again. Until then, everyone else as a mid laner does way better (Ahri, Azir, Vicktor, Ziggs, Veigar, Annie, ect.) Just sad to see Cass get left behind so bad. I haven't seen anyone use her besides me these days.

The Whamboozler9 votes

Upvoted for truth.

Personally I would prefer if they pulled Twin Fangs out of the game entirely and focused more on giving her more poisons and DoT effects. She's a slow, creeping death, not a freaking machine gun. Maybe give her a mechanic like Twitch that bursts someone near her who's taken poison damage from her recently. Instead she's an AP marksman who is inferior to both mages and marksmen at the same time... with punishing mana costs, a VERY long weak period and NO strengths beyond her ability to spam E. Even marksmen have steroids and escapes. Cass has to farm her passive all game to get to the point where she can E spam for good damage... and if she messes up and hits a target not poisoned, she's screwed.

Imagine if there was an adc who had Cass's abilites. Sure, the peel on the ult would be nice... but having to land a small circle skillshot Q or W or your auto-attacks don't work for 2-3 seconds would be BRUTAL. Q and W do no damage, too... so just pausing to cast them is dropping your DPS. You're slow and immobile with no dashes or escape... though if you land said difficult Q you get a slight MS boost for a second or so. NO ONE would play this crappy adc.

I used to love playing Cass... and they ruined her. At this point, the only rework I haven't hated has been Sion's... but Cass takes the cake. They literally ripped her apart, reassembled her WRONG and pretty much said "meh... deal with it.". Why even keep her in the game?

Leu073 votes

And I upvoted you for truth too!

TDubH8 votes

Personally, as someone who is a god-awful mid-laner Cassio and Veigar are my two favorites, I won't go ME CASSIO MAIN IN SEGRET because i'm not, I NEVER touched cassio before her reworks and the only reason i touched cassio after was because i jumped on the FoTM however i played her after the nerfs and i enjoy the tactical parts of how to combo her kit... But i also hate how i only have 1 ability with an unreliable cool-down for combo and 1 ability to... maybe? stun a few people, and 1 ability to perhaps create an area of me not want go there.

But as the OP said Azir does all this... and he does it better. Compare ultimate: A zone for several seconds which EFFECTIVELY stuns melee carries PLUS its a knock back which NEGATES all jump based damage Vs A short range chance to stun or slow which CANNOT effect the enemy carries

Compare Damage ability Arise!: zones in which the user can repeatedly attack STANDARD COOL-DOWN can have multiple soldier combos with Q for slow and repositioning of damage zone CAN DO FROM FAR AWAY Cassio's E: Combos with Q and W has UNRELIABLE cool-down either REALLY short or REALLY long only single target UNLIKE azir SHORT RANGED

Compare defensive ability: Azirs E travel to a solder combos with Q can go over wall Cassios Q temporary speed boost...

Compare passives Azir: MASSIVE ZONING as long as near tower, AS speed increase with ranks Cassio: a questionable damage increase at levels a form of sustain later but nothing.

OVERALL Analysis: OP is correct in Azir > cassio but lets take a different zone control mage Veigar: Massive AP scaling, reliable stun, has no slows but can stop all dashes more reliable scaling than cassio and with ult can DESTROY any AP carry lower stun cool-down than cassio but has no mobility, faster stacking passive more noticeable DOES NOT NEED MULTIPLE MANA BASED ITEMS over all Veigar > Cassio

BASICALLY: Cassio is the worst of them all... not having his own strengths to match them overall weaker and a little sadder.

Penns6 votes

biased

lel

TDubH8 votes

Of course i'm bloody biased, she's one of 3 mid-laners who mechanics are easy enough for me to understand and use. I think that she's in a bit of a sad place right now and i'd rather she weren't so i'll make a bloody argument.

khorney8 votes

Her rework was a nerf plain and simple she can't team fight more of a 1v1 champ and team relies on her ultimate just for the cc besides that she is useless because you need to jump through hoops to max damage output and even then you can only damage 1 champ I would say use ori she does the samething but better just to add to the 2 other Champs you had named

TDubH2 votes

No, the rework was a total fuckup plain and simple, at first it wasn't a nerf because it meant that even having built RoA and Seraph which do give ap but favor mana she still EASILY achieved over 1k AP easily, which she then used to 2 shot carries sustain endless and basically be a total poisonous effect on the community... then riot said, "OOPS" we're going to nerf her, because a dumpster isn't a problem... just people remember when she wasn't a dumpster and are sad. and then people who remember when she wasn't needing of being a dumpster or being dumpstered and crie everytiem

i am exaggerating by the dumpster, she's not awful but she's not boasting a decent win rate either.

Bunny Bells1 votes

{quoted}

No, the rework was a total fuckup plain and simple, at first it wasn't a nerf because it meant that even having built RoA and Seraph which do give ap but favor mana she still EASILY achieved over 1k AP easily, which she then used to 2 shot carries sustain endless and basically be a total poisonous effect on the community... then riot said, "OOPS" we're going to nerf her, because a dumpster isn't a problem... just people remember when she wasn't a dumpster and are sad. and then people who remember when she wasn't needing of being a dumpster or being dumpstered and crie everytiem

i am exaggerating by the dumpster, she's not awful but she's not boasting a decent win rate either.

wut?

TDubH1 votes

TL:DR Immediately after passive hit first stack post re-work cassio almost automatically won lane and scaled incredibly well with great scalings, however this was unhealthy so riot significantly brought down the scalings of cassio to the point where she's at the same point / weaker than pre - rework which is what the rework was supposed to solve.

khorney3 votes

{quoted}

TL:DR Immediately after passive hit first stack post re-work cassio almost automatically won lane and scaled incredibly well with great scalings, however this was unhealthy so riot significantly brought down the scalings of cassio to the point where she's at the same point / weaker than pre - rework which is what the rework was supposed to solve.

You are high if you thought she was weak prerework. She is just weak because you have to do a b and c before you can do things way to reliant on her e

TDubH1 votes

Let me re-iterate a point i've made several times I NEVER PLAYED CASSIOPAEA PRE REWORK I don't honestly know, this is what i've learned from how the community acts, call me high, call me insane, but from what i've noticed her damage was NOT amazing or impressive and from what i've noticed POST rework she seems to be at the same level of complaint as PRE rework.

chriserit3 votes

it is correct and incorrect at the same time

PRE rework she had not amazing damage because of multiple problems with E (think that her E cd was starting once you hit the enemy and not when you casted it and this was an huge problem for her damage output)

POST rework cassio damage comes only from E, and since E is a targetted spell for not being toxic they needed to lower the damage of E ...and well came out that Q and W do no damage while E does mediocre damage instead of tons of damage (to compensate the no damage coming from Q and W).

khorney7 votes

Who cares if she has 1 k ap it doesn't matter if she needs to land q or w to do anything then e then e then q

TDubH4 votes

Except the problem was that she needed to land Q once or W slightly to E the carry twice to kill them... she had too much AP too quickly with too much scaling so riot gated them heavily and decreased the scaling which has put into a bit of a worse place than pre rework because before her style of "I landed a Q, you're dead" was too strong and now its "I can't position to land anything!" both styles are not healthy and not good gameplay.

Bunny Bells3 votes

{quoted}

Who cares if she has 1 k ap it doesn't matter if she needs to land q or w to do anything then e then e then q

Prerework this was the case as well.

It was the way to gate the high risk high reward of playing her. Now it's high risk meh reward.

khorney7 votes

No it was not the same case. Her q and w were her damage they actually did damage not her e. Her ratios were higher and the base damage on her q was higher so it's not the same

Saianna6 votes

I NEVER touched cassio before her reworks and the only reason i touched cassio after was because i jumped on the FoTM however i played her after the nerfs and i enjoy the tactical parts of how to combo her kit...

That part of Cass never changed. She has overall the same abilities. Problem is Q & W deal no significant damage, while E is overloaded with weird, uneccessary stats.

If you liked that part, where Cass would make combos then you'd most likely like the old cass :)

Monkey D Luffy1 votes

I'd rather verse Azir than cassiopea.

TDubH4 votes

Really? i'd rather go up against cassio any time, i mean yes i get poked about the same but at least i'm not dealing with the same bloody monster that azir becomes (i'm talking about if they're good, i'd rather face a bad azir than a bad cassio so friggen derpy)

RISE Shlack1236 votes

Upvoted.

Riot has apparently been more concerned with shoving newer, more OP champions down our throats than fixing the ones they currently have. That's something I've been against all along. They should fix the roster they have instead of introducing more and more champions with broken mechanics. They are shoving the older champions under the bus to make way for the new ones, but they won't go so far as to delete them from the game. They'd just leave them under-powered so nobody plays them.

khorney5 votes

To me she is weak low ratios low damage needs to land unreliable moves to gain damage. Need to land q or w before u land e. She is weak teamfight basically you rely on her stun for the cc glorified support. Because you can only hit 1 champ with e. There is a reason I was a boss with her because q and w did damage and u didn't need e she could easy 1v3 fed With rylais and liandrys., now..... You literally need to jump through hoops to do damage I don't think there is another champ in this game who needs that. Sure now she accelerates at 1v1 more of a duelist now

avarisce4 votes

man kudos for you for this in depth cassio read through. i used to play her a lot and then she became mainstream. now i dont.

Foxboxunionttv2 votes

So I made it through your first two paragraphs before I felt the need to stop and ask do you even follow the game at all?. In Korea and China Cass is a hugely contested pick and is still pulling bans for some teams. The new Cass is perfect right now and does not need to be ruined. A small buff would be nice but might be to much right now. Make sure you do your homework before you post something claiming its facts when its just misguided opinion

Hellioning7 votes

And in Worlds, she was picked once and lost.

Totally contested.

Dengeden1 votes

Firstly, here's what I disagree with. She isn't binary. Outside of building tear, she can build whatever she wants. Unlike every other mage out there. Furthermore, her E spam might be binary but it requires a lot of micro play. I don't agree with the your "her kit has the following weaknesses by design, why not remove them?" statement either. For obvious reasons. Heck, the wind up from her ult also means she can flash ult you with pretty much no counterplay. (LeeSinRemind you of someone?LeeSin)

Now that that's out of the way, it would be neat if she could at least switch targets once she started spamming E. Maybe if poisoning someone left "Twin Fang debuff" sort of thing that refreshed everytime she used E. I'm not entirely certain wether a focus on poison (just because she's a snake) would work. We already have a dedicated DoT mage in the form of Rumble. Also, DoT is kinda meh because of sustain and Aegis.

Hellioning5 votes

You also basically need a Rylai's for kiting purposes.

And if you think a possible Cass ult from a flash is a problem, you must hate Annie.

...Rumble is not a DoT mage. Especially not a 'dedicated' DoT mage.

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