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@Riot, when will you finally listen to Cassiopeia's playerbase?

Canastus··140 votes·10,305 views

I'd like to know why you've abandoned Cassiopeia players and mains alltogether. It took us a great deal of effort to finally get Stashu back and what does he do? He simply disappears after dropping off another excuse, just like last time. **The guy literally admitted in his thread that the rework was RUSHED due to time constraints from the Shurima event and now we're stuck with a mutilated snakelady. **He even had the audacity to tell us that there's nothing immediate planned for her. Did it ever occur to you that we want to have a talk with the people responsible for destroying the identity and viability of our favorite champion?

Now we've arrived at the main issue of this entire rework, this total lack of communication. I've seen other reworks and they certainly recieved a lot more care than this one. Actual threads created ahead of time (can't say the same about the Cass one on GD) and ongoing dialogue between the project leader(s) and the affected playerbase. None of this took place for Cassiopeia, we didn't even get a single pinned thread. Speaking of that, how about you finally pin this one?

It's almost as if you're desperately trying to sweep this entire thing under the carpet, but I won't let you. Not after what you've done to her. If you really want to know why we're so upset with the rework, I strongly advise reading our feedback. Beause so far I've got the impression that you did no such thing. What you need to do is to actually start doing something about this - the longer it takes for you to fix this mess, the longer we suffer. We haven't seen a single trace of PBE changes since several weeks for poor Cass, that needs to change.

I expect you to start acting like a team that respects its playerbase along with its beloved champions because this is NOT how you should handle a rework. Bring back Stashu and tell him to take this more seriously. Make him talk with us, not against us - convince him if you have to. I could have easily posted all of this into his own thread but at this point I doubt that he even pays attention to what we're saying, otherwise this could have been prevented a long time ago. I'll keep posting about this matter until you've finally taken some action.

Edit: If you wish to gain a better insight into our reasoning, I highly suggest reading this post.

231 Comments

1nixia28 votes

For those new to the discussion, here's what I gather are many of the reasons why other Cassiopeia players are generally not happy with the rework:

-The new passive combined with low dmg scaling- which makes her very vulnerable early and mid game, and focuses her playstyle on farming minions/stacks and playing passively which is less fun for many who enjoyed her early game harrass and more consistent dmg contribution to games. There are concerns the passive kicks in too late, she is less versatile with roles (her build path is more linear), and also that her design doesn't really support her carrying well in late game (range, escape options, setup time, dmg scaling, etc..)

-Pretty significant mana issues early on- because of the reliance on spamming a fairly mana intensive ability- twin fang to defend herself (and if twin fang doesn't snag a kill on a minion she doesn't get the refund). This causes her to have to back early and rush tear. And combined with the passive means she can't wander out of lane much until later.

-Her DOT/Poison identity has been drastically reduced, which is what some felt was core to a snake themed champion like Cassiopeia- Her Q and W both have pretty mild dmg outputs now, and she has lost her ability to harrass and aoe in favor of Twin Fang dives (which may be riskier for a character who is squishy and lacking escapes). This also means that point investments in these two abilities after the initial point don't really mean as much. To add to that part of the reason it was reduced is bc Riot felt her DOT theme clashed with other champions like "Brand, Rumble, Swain, Zyra, Malzahar, and even Mordekaiser" which doesn't make sense.

-Her win rates. While these are a bit better than what they were at first on release (<40% until E was fixed) they are still hovering around ~46%. This is still not really a viable position, and maybe its partially due to more dedicated mains trying her than new players which help inflate it, but that's probably stretching it some tbh. Its not where it should be in any case.

-Skin changes/Visual Update- Some examples: The new model doesn't match up with her new splash (tail color, scale width, etc..). The Desperada skin lost the cooler tail design from before for a pretty plain brown one, and some preferred the old Desperada splash as well. She is less pretty- and it doesnt' fit the seductress theme as well. Her new icon reminds people of Wukong's icon...

-Lore concerns- Her new lore is very short (a longer version may be hinted for release). She never seems to show her charisma/seducing qualities in the event (she just stabs Sivir). Why the snake trap? How does it protect what's inside? Isn't the curse (animal hybrid) something Shurima considered an ascedant quality?

-And finally, Lack of Communication by Riot. The changes were rushed through testing (like 2 days?) there was plenty of feedback which was never considered- including a bug on E which damaged her early release. Some feel there is a confirmation bias towards which replies were looked at (generally ones that liked the new direction). Wildly popular threads (nearly 300 on the old board) on her only get an early red response but then followed by silence, and are not pinned- leading to the feeling of being ignored. There has been little to nothing for her hitting public test (the only changes to date have been pretty minor- even though more had been promised to be in the works- its felt excruciatingly long for people waiting for these seeing new patches come and go with nothing)

Canastus5 votes

Fantastically written, you've hit the nail on the head.

I did put a link to your post on the top of this thread, it deserves all the attention it can get.

jjookkeerr23 votes

the same day they will listen to lb playerbase

gubigubi36 votes

I would tell you to be silent but I cant make people do that anymore. Leblanc item 3070

forgottenfables18 votes

Welcome to what Karma players dealt with. This isn't new. The Riot staffer shows up, doesn't listen to legit discussion "Because this is what we did and it's not going to change" then gets bent out of shape due to all the vitriol (this is a pretty big problem, people are entirely too hateful and butt hurt over changes thank you self-entitled socially-inept morons, I wouldn't want to deal with it and I have to deal with Long Haul Truckers and Used Car Salesman all day) and abandons the thread because "OMG U FUKCING SUX EAT DICKS AND DIE FOR RUINING TEH PERFECTIONS OF MY CHAMPEEN I HOPE U GET CANCER AN LOSE UR JOB!!!@1!!!"

Biooutbreak4 votes

Welcome to what Karma players dealt with. This isn't new. The Riot staffer shows up, doesn't listen to legit discussion "Because this is what we did and it's not going to change" then gets bent out of shape due to all the vitriol (this is a pretty big problem, people are entirely too hateful and butt hurt over changes thank you self-entitled socially-inept morons, I wouldn't want to deal with it and I have to deal with Long Haul Truckers and Used Car Salesman all day) and abandons the thread because "OMG U FUKCING SUX EAT DICKS AND DIE FOR RUINING TEH PERFECTIONS OF MY CHAMPEEN I HOPE U GET CANCER AN LOSE UR JOB!!!@1!!!"

especially when stashu did answer them and it wasn't the answer they wanted. i mean. calling for someone to be fired? you know it's hard to take a group seriously when it goes that far. i wonder when these people will realize that preseason jungle/hp5 tests are going on.

if you don't know what that means, it means that the game items and stats have drastically changed, so that no champion changes can be put in until its done, because changing a champion while changing items/stats/jungle could cause lots of problems. i believe it was...xyph? who mentioned that the only changes a champ can have right now is every champions hp5 stat, and that they can't be any changes to champions till all this testing is done.

Kowe The Ewok12 votes

Welcome to what Karma players dealt with. This isn't new. The Riot staffer shows up, doesn't listen to legit discussion "Because this is what we did and it's not going to change" then gets bent out of shape due to all the vitriol (this is a pretty big problem, people are entirely too hateful and butt hurt over changes thank you self-entitled socially-inept morons, I wouldn't want to deal with it and I have to deal with Long Haul Truckers and Used Car Salesman all day) and abandons the thread because "OMG U FUKCING SUX EAT DICKS AND DIE FOR RUINING TEH PERFECTIONS OF MY CHAMPEEN I HOPE U GET CANCER AN LOSE UR JOB!!!@1!!!"

especially when stashu did answer them and it wasn't the answer they wanted. i mean. calling for someone to be fired? you know it's hard to take a group seriously when it goes that far. i wonder when these people will realize that preseason jungle/hp5 tests are going on.

if you don't know what that means, it means that the game items and stats have drastically changed, so that no champion changes can be put in until its done, because changing a champion while changing items/stats/jungle could cause lots of problems. i believe it was...xyph? who mentioned that the only changes a champ can have right now is every champions hp5 stat, and that they can't be any changes to champions till all this testing is done.

The question is how you treat your customers. And I know more than 1 job where you'ld get fired for treating your customers like this...

Biooutbreak3 votes

Welcome to what Karma players dealt with. This isn't new. The Riot staffer shows up, doesn't listen to legit discussion "Because this is what we did and it's not going to change" then gets bent out of shape due to all the vitriol (this is a pretty big problem, people are entirely too hateful and butt hurt over changes thank you self-entitled socially-inept morons, I wouldn't want to deal with it and I have to deal with Long Haul Truckers and Used Car Salesman all day) and abandons the thread because "OMG U FUKCING SUX EAT DICKS AND DIE FOR RUINING TEH PERFECTIONS OF MY CHAMPEEN I HOPE U GET CANCER AN LOSE UR JOB!!!@1!!!"

especially when stashu did answer them and it wasn't the answer they wanted. i mean. calling for someone to be fired? you know it's hard to take a group seriously when it goes that far. i wonder when these people will realize that preseason jungle/hp5 tests are going on.

if you don't know what that means, it means that the game items and stats have drastically changed, so that no champion changes can be put in until its done, because changing a champion while changing items/stats/jungle could cause lots of problems. i believe it was...xyph? who mentioned that the only changes a champ can have right now is every champions hp5 stat, and that they can't be any changes to champions till all this testing is done.

The question is how you treat your customers. And I know more than 1 job where you'ld get fired for treating your customers like this...

so how do you tell someone that is deadset on something and won't change their mind about it at all? especially if that customer is being extremely rude? the customer isn't always right, and if this situation happened at my work, we would refuse service to that customer and ask them to go elsewhere for their needs.

Audiomancy25 votes

so how do you tell someone that is deadset on something and won't change their mind about it at all? especially if that customer is being extremely rude? the customer isn't always right, and if this situation happened at my work, we would refuse service to that customer and ask them to go elsewhere for their needs.

Alright. Let's say you work at a restaurant. There's a customer sitting down, enjoying a lovely fruit parfait. It's delicious, it's presented beautifully and nobody has ever had any complaints regarding it. Then you get a plate and take a massive dump on it. You walk up to the customer, take away their fruit parfait and replace it with your turdburger. When asked why you've done this, you simply look at the customer and say "because" and then refuse to communicate with them whatsoever. That is what this rework is.

Oh, and after the customer complains about their 'chocolate cake', saying that it's terrible, you insist that it's perfect the way it is and that they just need to get used to it. Then, just to make it seem a little less shitty, you add some sprinkles on top of it.

devastation inc10 votes

basically anywhere u work the customer is always right.

LeeDark6 votes

I'm sorry, but the Cass rework and the Karma rework are not at all the same. Karma was a real rework, with time and effort put in. New Karma was even more viable than the old Karma had been. A handful of people who liked her niche playstyle didn't like it, but a whole slew of new people liked new Karma, as shown by the fact she has seen more play since then. Nobody who plays the new Cass likes it; a handful say the IDEA of her passive is interesting, but once you actually try her out, you realize the passive doesn't make her more powerful even maxed out. The Karma example is one of how sometimes the overly vocal forum community can be wrong, because they don't represent the sentiment of the larger community. The Cass example is one of Riot ignoring everyone, even non-forum goers, who've made their feelings known by the plummeting rates of Cass in games.

forgottenfables6 votes

Thank you for proving the point I made with the Karma rework example! You immediately dismiss the fall out from the karma rework (when we had Scarizard actually discussing things with us only for most of it to be ultimately ignored) and somehow feel that the way Stashu has handled this is completely different!

You have also dismissed the very same "Overly vocal forum community" that you are trying to back up here. You can't say that it should work here but not for Karma because you like Cass more.

LeeDark10 votes

I don't like Cass. I don't play her, and she wasn't my main before. I tried her out and theorycrafted her post-rework, and she is in an abysmal state. So that is not why I'm saying the two situations are different.

They are different because the circumstances are entirely different. Yes, there is a small similarity in the way in which a Riot employee interacted with the forum community, being dismissive and uncaring of the community's opinion. I'm saying that in Karma's case, there was a good reason for that dismissiveness. While you and other old Karma fans complained on the forums, Karma saw her pick rates rise, indicating that the larger playerbase was perfectly happy with Karma's rework. It sucks that you liked old Karma more, but Riot wasn't wrong to change her, as evidenced by the greater playtime she has seen since. Cass is different; the rework was rushed to match the Shurima events and it made her weaker overall when the stated goal was to make her weaker early and stronger late. Her pick rates weren't great before the rework, but now her pick rates and win rates are falling to horrific lows. The general playerbase agrees with what those on the forums are saying; nobody wants to play her in the state in which she exists now.

Quantum Weeb17 votes

I haven't played Cass before or after the rework, but looking at her new kit has made me want to try her out.

Why is she bad now?

EDIT: Downvotes for asking a legitimate question? I'm not even saying that I like or dislike new Cass.

Mikayle10 votes

I haven't played Cass before or after the rework, but looking at her new kit has made me want to try her out.

Why is she bad now?

EDIT: Downvotes for asking a legitimate question? I'm not even saying that I like or dislike new Cass.

All her power is in her E now. W/Q are utility to enhance her E. So pretty much you can't build pure AP and throw W/Q and cackle as somoene dies. Even with like 800 AP a W or Q still wont' clear a wave lol

Her E is really sexy though and just makes her a version of Ryze with more AoE.

Serpents Embrace14 votes

Less AoE damage than Ryze tbh.

Mikayle3 votes

Less AoE damage than Ryze tbh.

eh perhaps. Ryze's is really based on how grouped they are. as is cass Q, cass R/W can get quite a bit of damage spread though.

Just gotta find a good build that works for her it seems. She doesn't work pure AP anymore, but her passive +ratios force her ot get AP in some sense to be relevant.

just seems to need the same build as Malphite or maokai which is a bit awkward lol Lily's/Hourglass/Rod/Void/Abyssal?

its a bit confusin. Maybe we should take her top and see how that goes /lol

Serpents Embrace15 votes

It would go terrible, because the cornerstone of a ranged top champion is a good lane phase, which she doesn't have. Actually, she doesn't excel at any point in the game because even once she achieves 400 stacks and a full build she is still Assassin and (at this point) Marksman food, because they have kits that don't work against themselves.

She is legitimately unplayable. There's no amount of theorycrafting or itemization that will fix this wreck.

kunkudunk3 votes

I partially agree with this based on the fact that before her rework, adcs would just melt her from basically outside her range depenind on which adc they were. Non of the changes to her kit they made actually adress this, which would be fine if it weren't for the fact that they moved all of her power to late game with the scaling on level ap ratio on e and her passive that takes quite some time to stack. Plus the whole small ratios thing always bothered me just cause I would rather she have normal looking ap ratios and gain less ap from her passive as this would give her more build freedom.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

Real?

Marksmen were the easiest things to deal with as Cass because only a few out-ranged her ultimate and she could kill them in that stun window because they don't build defenses.

Now she lacks the damage to kill them in that time frame, even when they are fully glass cannon.

EDIT: And of all the classes they are the easiest to hit with the stun, because you KNOW when they will be looking at you. Assassins and Mages uses skills can cast and turn easily, but you can't turn from an auto-attack or it will cancel.

kunkudunk2 votes

Except you can turn about half way through the auto attack animation without it canceling, any competent team will not let you ult the adc, even if they have to stand right in front of you and use all their cc, and almost every commonly used adc has mobility in their kit. Yes, it used to be if you ulted them they died, but it's not like that would happen unless you caught them on their own in the jungle. How close you have to get in a team fight to ult the adc puts you way out of position unless you are fed enough to not care.

Serpents Embrace3 votes

I'm not speaking theoretically, I'm speaking from experience. Marksmen weren't scary for Cassi until this nerf rework. The only ADC that was an issue was Twitch, with sometimes Tristana or Kog'Maw. But currently she can't fight anyone.

And you're ulting them during their attack animation as they're attacking you. I thought that part would have been obvious considering this discussion's context.

Vellich0r8 votes

unless she builds one hundred percent pure AP she does less damage now than pre rework, and it is less reliable. she also has massive mana issues in lane and is so weak early to mid game that you could lose lane to her 4 to 0 because their jungler camped and still shit on her mid game because her only "power spike" comes at 40 minutes

MakersF9 votes

Extremely weak early/mid, need all early + mid game to get stacks, if you fall behind you'll never come back, mechanically hard, a single error (using E on a target that is not poisoned, and it's prety easy when in a TF a everyone moves and overlap) and you are totally useless (if not dead), no escapes, ulti that relies on the enemy being stupid more than you timing it correctly, even when you reach late game the risk is huge due to 700 range and missing one E making your DPS 0, no wave clear whatsoever for the first 15 mins (good luck against ori/xerath/zindra/zigss/whoever had decent push), too slow to roam, even if get early kills won't scale to late faster (actually will scale later, as you won't get stacks when the enemy is dead). This on top of my head, there are some more.

Skia Asteri7 votes

I haven't played Cass before or after the rework, but looking at her new kit has made me want to try her out.

Why is she bad now?

EDIT: Downvotes for asking a legitimate question? I'm not even saying that I like or dislike new Cass.

Her early game damage is too low for the mana cost. Her stacks take a bit too long to get. That is about it as far as her viability goes.

The real problem is she is a non-support champion with three abilities that are mostly for utility. This makes her game play a bit dull.

Quepha11 votes

Her early game damage is too low for the mana cost. Her stacks take a bit too long to get. That is about it as far as her viability goes.

and the primary way to get stacks is antithetical to how one should behave when they have a bad early game.

Lapis x312 votes

Oh Riot, why cant you just communicate with us! You have an angry fan base waiting for some sort of information.

Communication is key for a company to be successful. **Please Riot, someone just give. us. something. **

GnomeDigest7 votes

Riot doesnt communicate with players anymore in the way you want them too. So while they will probably eventually say something about this, they will just talk AT you. Whether you chose to talk back is irrelevant. They will do what they want regardless of your opinions. Sure long ago they were not like this but this is now.

In short, they will eventually talk, but it wont amount to the "something" you were looking for.

Kowe The Ewok11 votes

If the "remake" wasn't so incredible I#ld say that the worst part is that there's absolutely no communication. Stashu's "latest" topic went without a single response - and his starting post showed utter disregard of basically all comments which have been posted in the 290+ topic before.

Especially worrying is that he doesn't realize that DoTs reapply and not stack; they have essentially 40% less damage than burst spells endgame (taking CDR into account). Yet Stashu put them on the same level, especially sicne he uses it as a justification TO LOWER CASSIO'S Q RATIO BY HALF???? Even Annie Q has 0.8 and it's no freaking huge delay skillshot and DoT but a good damn burst spell that can even stun... Yet Cassio's Q gets 0.45 scaling while it used to be at 0.9 and DOES NOT BENEFIT FROM CDR ???

P.S: I love those Cassio pictures.

Caustic Crusader10 votes

Anybody else ready to give up altogether on Cass? It's pretty clear that Riot doesn't give a fuck about her. There's not been any communication whatsoever about basically ANYTHING involving the rework, it's completely unsatisfying to play unless you get ahead (which is impossible unless you're taking her against like Ryze top or something), and the stacking passive feels like a complete chore. Her old playstyle is dead, and her new one can't possibly be called coherent by anybody except for Stashu because he's the one that made it, and god forbid Riot ever go back on something that they've clearly fucked up beyond belief.

Just for curiosity's sake, might I get a link to where Stashu said the rework was rushed and they've no plans to touch her from this point on?

yellowbricks7 votes

Anybody else ready to give up altogether on Cass? It's pretty clear that Riot doesn't give a fuck about her. There's not been any communication whatsoever about basically ANYTHING involving the rework, it's completely unsatisfying to play unless you get ahead (which is impossible unless you're taking her against like Ryze top or something), and the stacking passive feels like a complete chore. Her old playstyle is dead, and her new one can't possibly be called coherent by anybody except for Stashu because he's the one that made it, and god forbid Riot ever go back on something that they've clearly fucked up beyond belief.

Just for curiosity's sake, might I get a link to where Stashu said the rework was rushed and they've no plans to touch her from this point on?

I've basically given up on this game. Why bother when the company will willingly dumpster a champ for little to no reason other than they're not lee sin? People can pay real money for these champs that subsequently get destroyed, and if you don't have any refunds left, oh well. They can take skins, and remove detail in their quest to port this game to the Playstation one, don't like it anymore? Tough. Their employees will just keep stringing us along "oh don't worry I've been thinking about Cass every night" and yet never acting on their words, instead dropping off the face of the earth for another month while their customers get rightfully upset, and then "Oh you guys are too mean I'm out". There's a myriad of other issues, but this one took the cake for me.

Quepha9 votes

azir went through several different kits that were created and scrapped for years before riot settled on one they really liked omen was scrapped because they didn't like the quality various iterations of champion kits or alternate mechanics have been scrapped after testing because they didn't feel right to the player did riot put these changes under the microscope to see if players liked them? did they ever treat this rework as something that should've been undone if it was going poorly or did they know it was going to push through no matter what happens?

TenSlashTen9 votes

All they had to do was lower CD between E casts and change CD to start the moment its cast and not when it hits enemy. God they suck at reworks on non melee champs for some reason.

Hrud8 votes

Riot, you keep acknowledging you fail at communicating with your playerbase, yet... this is still going without any responses?

I'm fairly confused here.

Thryale6 votes

Preach it, brother!

Sigh, sadly, the major thing to take away from all of this is just one thing. Back in the original cass thread on GD I asked stashu if he thought he made a mistake with this whole rework, his response? "No."

Stashu fimrly believes he was not and is not wrong with the direction he has taken cass, and that is the major problem here. Cass isn't as popular as lee sin, she is not a pivotal professional pick, so it does not matter how much we cry about it, we won't get the changes reverted due to the sheer fact that riot believes they were not mistaken with this rework.

I pity cass, I really do. I was never a cass main, but I did enjoy playing her from time to time. I even almost got a penta with her once (it was an unofficial one because the blasted sona took too long to chase down and kill) but I will refuse to play cass as long as she is in her current condition.

Canastus7 votes

They must finally fix this unplayable mess, she's literally worse than Poppy at this point. All it takes is giving first blood with her and you're instantly useless for the rest of the game - and pray to god their jungler isn't camping you. Her laning phase is downright horrendous and an insult to anyone who used to play Cass before the rework. She has become THE Urgot of midlane.

She literally has no comeback potential anymore since her damage is entirely limited to her Twin Fangs now, a short range ability which already puts you in great danger. Her poke and aoe-damage are nonexistent, it's impossible to play her safely. Against popular midlaners like Zed she's as good as dead the second she enters lane. Combined with her awful waveclear and unreasonable manacosts she fails to clear waves fast enough to even keep up with the constant pressure.

This Cassiopeia will never make it into lategame, all thanks to that godawful passive which somehow justifies gutting her ratios entirely. I used to humilate assassins back then with my insane lane dominance and strong early game which enabled me to shut them down before they could even snowball, now I'm just the prey waiting to be slaughtered. There's absolutely no place on mid for her anymore.

tl;dr: Cassiopeia is unviable due to being immobile, short ranged and inherently squishy. Combined with her terribly delayed powerspike and awful laning phase, she's nothing more but a liability to her team. There is absolutely no joy left in playing her.

Orbv6 votes

What I don't get is how they expected this rework to make her more competitive when about 75% of LCS and World's matches end within 30 min. No pro would ever choose Cass because she's dead weight until then.

What everyone else needs to realize is that Riot didn't change Cassiopeia to fix her of anything. They wanted a champion who spammed an ability and became like a carry. The only champ that was relatively close to that was Cass, so they remade her until she fit what they wanted from the champ.

I know that Riot is too proud to revert this rework, but I like seeing this thread at the top of the Boards as a reminder to everyone that Riot ruins unpopular champions. There is no incentive to use an unpopular champion, they get reworked and end up feeling so much worse.

Smartsize6 votes

I'll remain bumping these types of threads until we AT LEAST get a response from Riot about this. Maybe a "Sorry" at least? They took away her core identity and now she's a boring E Spambot with a fancy reset mechanic attached. And unfortunately, due to the nerfs to base damages and scalings, that's all her Q and W are anymore.

Cassiopeia deserves better than this; I don't want this to turn into another Karma rework for me

Trading Aces5 votes

Skarner's still in a shithole.

The Red Warden6 votes

Skarner was actually decent after his rework, then Riot saw that he was having success in pro-play and nerfed him hard (15% of his already minimal damage was removed) and the thing that makes it even worse is that he still always lost to Lee Sin even when Skarner was at his strongest

Immortal Strife5 votes

As a faithful Gragas player I feel your pain.

AbiwonKenabi5 votes

I completely understand why people are upset over this. Cass is a cool champion, she has fun abilities, neat theme, really cool skins, everything: she's awesome, and she deserves to be played. There are obviously problems with her weak early game and not having the tools to make it to the late game. Stashu himself admitted as much. But acting all self-entitled isn't going to get us anywhere. Demanding answers isn't going to find a good fix for Cass any sooner; I'd much rather they spend their time actually working out those changes rather than vaguely talking about them.

The thread you reference (the Stashu thread here) explains everything we need to know right now. In it, Stashu says:

the primary reason why we had no changes for 4.18 is that we still haven't fully determined which tools to add to/bolster on Cassiopeia's kit. We know that we can buff her stats to a point where she's strong, but we're spending some extra time to ensure that our changes do everything we want them to (namely, reinforce her Snake Mage identity).

This is the exact answer most of us were hoping to hear. He mentions how resources are tight because of all the Pre-Season changes incoming, and then he says:

That said, I plan on getting some Cassiopeia changes into testing with the target of finalizing them by the next patch or two.

So there, we have an ETA and confirmation that they are indeed looking at Cassiopeia. Anything further is just going to be a useless, repetitive "we're working on it" post until they have the actual change, in which case we'll know right away.

Also, everyone, enough with the crying Cassiopeia pictures. She's way to cunning to let something like this bother her. :P

Grand Eleven4 votes

So there, we have an ETA and confirmation that they are indeed looking at Cassiopeia. Anything further is just going to be a useless, repetitive "we're working on it" post until they have the actual change, in which case we'll know right away.

FOr me personally, the problem isn't about her overall power level, it's about the change of identity and it's value. As someone else pointed out she had two identities before: late game carry (Tons of damage!) and DOT mage (which made her a heavy harass champion). They ripped out one of her identities claiming it overlapped with champions like Brand. This is unsettling on a number of levels:

  1. Of the two potential identities to take away ... why would you take poison/dot away from a snake mage and keep the hyper/carry aspect? Thematically alone .... WAT?. How does snake/poison say hyper-carry more than DOT?

  2. Further on the DOT removal, the list of champions whom's identity it apparently fringed upon were clearly not DOT champions ... something easily observable by ... uh ... everyone in the thread. Brand is a DOT champion? Really?

  3. Then there are DOTs themselves .... had anyone heard they were toxic before that answer was ponied up as a reason it was pulled from her kit? Are there any threads in GD on this? Teemo shrooms are legendary I guess ... but yet they persist... and I doubt it's the DOT aspect that makes them infuriating.

  4. Third is the ugly M word: meta. The mage hyper-carry has no place in today's meta. At all. People were upset that it was announced that Cass would be re-tuned into a role that doesn't exist.

  5. Finally there's flexibility: why is it bad that Cass can build for multiple roles? Why did she have to be streamlined at all?

Put all this together and yeah: lot's of people aren't so thrilled that this change came about ... and buffing numbers addresses NONE of those 4 concerns listed. Now it sounds like they are trying to make it "feel" like poison is involved while not making her DOT based anymore ... but is that really a fix? At all?

To me no. I dont like the DOT removal from her kit. It was part of her identity. Just like I dont like that they striped all reference to her being beautiful. (notice Shurima event pulled all references to her being beautiful?) Or they stripped the rattlesnake from her desperada skin.

Really the ONLY thing I've liked from this sea of change was her default splash art ... I hated it at first but it grew on me ... it's actually pretty awesome.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

I think one of the reasons they decided not to focus on the DOT aspect is because of how hard it is to feel powerful. Its very deceptive how much damage DOTs do, and if they're too much, they feel unfair. Too little, and they suck. I remember seeing one or two Riot designers talk about this a while back, can't remember which thread.

Furthermore, burst is always going to be more desirable than DOT; it happens instantly, and is easier to judge exactly how much damage you(or the enemy) is going to do. Not implying it should be the only way, but its easy to see why it doesn't have as much appeal.

Just like I dont like that they striped all reference to her being beautiful. (notice Shurima event pulled all references to her being >beautiful?) Or they stripped the rattlesnake from her desperada skin.

I think striping her beauty references was a bad play, but that has nothing to do with game balance and Stashu probably has little to no control over it.

Desperada still has a rattle and its clearly still a rattlesnake motif. Not sure what the problem is there.

Grand Eleven3 votes

I think one of the reasons they decided not to focus on the DOT aspect is because of how hard it is to feel powerful. Its very deceptive how much damage DOTs do, and if they're too much, they feel unfair. Too little, and they suck. I remember seeing one or two Riot designers talk about this a while back, can't remember which thread.

But when/how was this tested? These arn't numbers... these are player responses ... feelings. If Riot designers were basing this on closed testing then the debate was little more than academic: you can pretend to know how the player base will feel ... but do you really know if it never gets pushed into the PBE? On that note ... can you name a DOT champ right now as a point of contention? Honestly the only poison/dot champs I can really think of are Teemo and Singed. Do we see threads about their power level being too low? I certainly don't.

Was it stipulated by looking at Cass's low pickrate? If so: why is that a problem? They've stated repeatedly that it's ok to have a champion with a niche popularity as long it was unique and viable.

Furthermore, burst is always going to be more desirable than DOT; it happens instantly, and is easier to judge exactly how much damage you(or the enemy) is going to do. Not implying it should be the only way, but its easy to see why it doesn't have as much appeal.

Is it a problem in other games perhaps so they are just trying to avoid introduce the problem here? DOTs are in plenty of games I can think of.

I honestly just don't get it. I don't understand where this comes from. Not everyone likes DOTs ... so what? Not everyone likes playing spell casters. Not everyone likes bruisers ... it's just not a basis to remove a mechanic IMO ... especially in a game that would benefit from mechanical depth.

I think striping her beauty references was a bad play, but that has nothing to do with game balance and Stashu probably has little to no control over it.

Desperada still has a rattle and its clearly still a rattlesnake motif. Not sure what the problem is there.

I'm not placing the blame of these changes on Stashu's feet. I'm merely lumping them together as a whole as ... unsatisfying. Problem with the desparada skin is that she was a "wild west" theme skin ... aka western diamondback rattler. The diamondback pattern in her tail is gone. It's not a major issue ... but no: I don't like it. You put together a lot of little things you dont like ... suddenly you start to dislike.

I dislike the "new Cassiopeia". A long (long) time ago she wasmy favorite mage that I tabled as I decided i love playing bruisers ... I was hopeful with the announced Cass changes that maybe I'd pick her backup ... I played her dedicated for a week ... and simply dislike almost everything they changed about her. Rather than bumping her up they made her worse both in raw power as well as thematically. That's a shame.

Astral Duck3 votes

they will get around to it, if you keep on QQ'ing it'll be rushed AGAIN and be stupid in one way or another, literally just give it time. Us Olaf lovers have to wait gods know how long for Olaf to ever get love again, so please for the love of cass ; don't force them to rush her again.

Canastus12 votes

The least they could do is to pin Stashu's thread. It's incomprehensible why Cassiopeia's rework is the only exception to that rule, it's simply disrespectful towards us to rob us of that kind of platform which usually serves as a mean to raise awareness and to discuss issues on.

I'll keep posting until they finally act on it.

Fluppets1 votes

dont expect any changes at all, not becaue "Rito sucks!" But because right now they're working on preseason changes, which means there wont be any champion changes at all.

Quepha4 votes

dont expect any changes at all, not becaue "Rito sucks!" But because right now they're working on preseason changes, which means there wont be any champion changes at all.

"oo sorry guys we kinda screwed up this rework. instead of reverting it we're just gonna leave you stuck with it for a few months at least because we need to change the jungle around so it's really hard to clear until we get bored of that and make it really easy to clear again"

why perform such a risky rework if they know they won't be able to follow up on it?

yellowbricks5 votes

dont expect any changes at all, not becaue "Rito sucks!" But because right now they're working on preseason changes, which means there wont be any champion changes at all.

Man, it's always something with these guys.

Oh man, the nerd championship is here, time to lose 90% of our employees to that nonsense.

Cool, that's over, we can be a functional company again... but now we gotta flip the game upside down so we can't do anything else.

Cool, we're done with that, annnnnd now it's Robanukah, see ya in a year!

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