@Riot, care to explain why you've entirely abandoned Cassiopeia in 4.18?

Canastus·Oct 8, 2014·124 votes·16,266 views

I know you're reading this, simply pretending that we don't exist will only make matters worse. We deserve a straight reply, no buts.

Since Stashu has decided to stop communicating entirely, I think someone else should do the talking. I don't care who you send out, but please do it. You NEED to explain to us what's going on and why Cassiopeia apparently has lost any relevance in the balancing department.

It's incomprehensible how you could have ignored almost 300 pages of feedback just to leave a severely nerfed champion behind to slowly die. She's objectively performing worse than before and yet you keep pretending as if she doesn't exist anymore.

Also no, the purpose of this thread is not for us to discuss the rework because we ALREADY did that. At this point we only care about an official statement from you, and nothing else. We'd be willing to take you up on any arguments you may bring up yourself however.

168 Comments

January 16thOct 8, 201438 votes

Yeah,casss early and mid game now blows sooo bad Makes me wanna play Veigar ADC. And 90% of the time u cant even hit Late game with her anymore. and her splash art OMFG Cassiopeia looking like MonkeyKing . Her old Splash art made her look like a real woman not this crap

UPfreelyOct 8, 201424 votes

holy crap they practically have the same face

XenohazOct 9, 201412 votes

Cannot unsee this.

Long Dong WukongOct 9, 20147 votes

Cannot unsee this.

I thought everyone was aware of this? I clicked her when I was trying to play Wukong right after she got reworked and I was like wait wut

RrettOct 9, 20147 votes

I played veigar adc recently and I won. Don't hate.

CanastusOct 9, 20145 votes

I played veigar adc recently and I won. Don't hate.

At this point even ad Cass would perform better. You might look up AsheIsElite for that, he actually tried it on Ranked and won 3 games with it so far.

CanastusOct 8, 201415 votes

People, we already talked about her numbers in the other threads more than enough. We can only have a real discussion if someone from Riot would finally show up and give us something to work with.

So far we've been throwing our arguments all over the place and nothing happened. The only way to make any progress now is to actually TALK with the people related to the rework and its balancing. Which is why we NEED to get someone from Riot in here.

Artty of AlaskaOct 8, 201412 votes

Agreed! A change in strategy seems called for, especially considering Stashu fell BACK from his word to start a new thread and continue this discussion.

It all but broke me to read the patch notes for 4.18 hoping to see tweaks or buffs for poor Cass and then come here and see IronStylus' excellent "What do you guys wana do with Taric?" thread a PotD.

Why on earth couldn't Cassiopeia and her passionate fans get similar treatment Riot?!

CerealBoxOfDoomOct 9, 20141 votes

People, we already talked about her numbers in the other threads more than enough. We can only have a real discussion if someone from Riot would finally show up and give us something to work with.

So far we've been throwing our arguments all over the place and nothing happened. The only way to make any progress now is to actually TALK with the people related to the rework and its balancing. Which is why we NEED to get someone from Riot in here.

but did you check reddit :/

edit

reddit as in the place where the biggest discussions have been going on due to its global involvement

CanastusOct 9, 20144 votes

but did you check reddit :/

edit

reddit as in the place where the biggest discussions have been going on due to its global involvement

I already tried bringing the discussion to Reddit and of course not a single red answered.

AbiwonKenabiOct 9, 20141 votes

reddit as in the place where the biggest discussions have been going on due to its global involvement

Nothing against reddit but I thought it was worth mentioning that these Boards have the handy advantage of allowing global accounts as well: at least EU, as far as I have seen.

MathbalnaseOct 9, 20145 votes

These boards are also the OFFICIAL venue for discussing League. It would be logical that discussions in the official venue would have a greater chance of eliciting an official response. Of course, Riot doesn't always act logically in this regard, but that's a discussion for another time.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 8, 201413 votes

Aside from the annoyingly unreliable mechanic of her ult, I actually think she's in a good spot. Of course this can easily not be the case outside of Gold Elo, but hey that's my experience.

Neo CyrusOct 8, 201424 votes

Across all Elos, not just Gold, her win rates are absolute trash. And that's with them being insanely inflated, as in the great majority of the data coming from Cass mains and botters. If that were the case with other champions you'd be seeing champs with 70% win rates. The same shit applies to other champions, like Diana, it sits with a win rate in the high 40s (Edit: I should have just said 40s, it's all over the place) so you'd think it's not that horrible. Try playing it. It sits in the 40s because the only ones who play it are mains with hundreds of games.

Compare that to say Ziggs when he was completely broken and his Q would hit even if it missed by its entire width. Win rates of 55% for a year+ even with every idiot and their dogs playing it. Mains had win rates in the 70s.

Sir ArmaMalumOct 8, 20147 votes

Win rates are a valid method of analyzing trends yes, but correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't her win rates gone up since the relaunch? LoLking right now has monthly average at 43% and her daily right now at 45%. Not much, no, but on my personal individual standpoint I believe she has a good amount of power but simply does not fit the current meta well.

Except the ult of course, as I said before that's too unreliable to support a logical defense. So, saying that I guess I can say the rework could have been better if they changed up the ult, but as far as what the rework actually changes, I am a fan and fully expect her (again, once the ult gets a bit of a change) to make a good comeback.

Neo CyrusOct 8, 20148 votes

It was regularly 48-52% before the "rework" averaging towards 50% all the time. Even though it was inflated like it is now, it was much better. Last I checked it was averaging 44% now after it went up. When it's 44% while heavily inflated you know something is wrong, such as the obivous that it has no mid or early game to speak of.

Tapu FiniOct 8, 201416 votes

Win rates will always be extraordinarily low during launches/revamps. Everyone and their mothers wants to play the new cool OP champ, whether or not they have skill with them (or in general.) As this dies off, win rates will go up. This is nothing new.

That being said, she's still too low. Her early game is still the absolute biggest joke in the game, and her ability to carry late game is non-existent. If she has to struggle through that horrible of an early game, she needs to be doing Vayne/Tristana/Tryndamere damage to compensate. She doesn't have the ratios to get that big, ever, and she lacks the base damage to get an advantage.

soulbanana8Oct 8, 20144 votes

Even then do the mains eventually adapt. Looking at Skarner after the passive rework, he started seeing a higher winrate. The fact that the winrate and pick rate is still this low is a bad sign.

Kowe The EwokOct 9, 20145 votes

It's not about adapting. It's a whole new champion, one most old Cassio mains hate. The concept of Veigar 2.0 instead of a lane bully and roamer just makes her so blunt.

SaruyanOct 8, 20142 votes

do you really think her ability to carry late game is non-existent? like you must not realize how much twin fangs at late game do.

Tapu FiniOct 9, 201412 votes

With a team comp big enough to support her through her horrendous early game, and to peel for her late game, you may as well be doing it for your adc. They have longer range, higher damage, better early games, better sustain, better mobility... They're just better.

Twin Fang leaves her in a dangerously close position (see: mobility creep, ADC range,) is limited to one target, and is very mana intensive. She doesn't benefit from mana scaling and the ability to build tanky like Ryze does, she can't get huge amount of spell vamp like AD carries can build lifesteal, and twin fang is reliant on her landing her poisons (See again: mobility creep.) In a perfect 1v1 scenario when the enemy isn't able to put out relevant amounts of damage, twin fang is great. However, where she's supposed to be strongest (late game,) teams tend to clump together, and she's forced into a relatively high risk, low reward situation where she's unable to get close enough to unload her damage without getting butchered.

Caustic CrusaderOct 8, 201410 votes

Win rates are a valid method of analyzing trends yes, but correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't her win rates gone up since the relaunch? LoLking right now has monthly average at 43% and her daily right now at 45%. Not much, no, but on my personal individual standpoint I believe she has a good amount of power but simply does not fit the current meta well.

Except the ult of course, as I said before that's too unreliable to support a logical defense. So, saying that I guess I can say the rework could have been better if they changed up the ult, but as far as what the rework actually changes, I am a fan and fully expect her (again, once the ult gets a bit of a change) to make a good comeback.

Monthly is likely 43% because when the relaunch happened, she plummeted to 39% and stuck there until the buffs came that took her up to 45%. Before the rework, she was around 51% and also was a more popular pick.

But god forbid Riot do something that might involve listening to the fans.

Kowe The EwokOct 9, 201412 votes

Report RiotStashu for refusing to communicate!

QuephaOct 8, 201410 votes

just play her and you'll know, even if it's just a bot game, that she's still basically worthless. an early game centered around harassing when she has poor range, mana issues, and practically negative damage, a late game centered around single target sustained dps when she has no mobility, range, or tankiness, and her only hard cc is an unreliable ult.

Neo CyrusOct 8, 20142 votes

Just to clarify, Hard CC refers to CC that cannot have its duration reduced by Tenacity. Cass has no hard CC, Tenacity does reduce the stun and slow durations of her ult. Hard CC would be something like a knockup, except for Nami's which they recoded as its own weird thing in order to nerf it.

QuephaOct 8, 201414 votes

Just to clarify, Hard CC refers to CC that cannot have its duration reduced by Tenacity. Cass has no hard CC, Tenacity does reduce the stun and slow durations of her ult. Hard CC would be something like a knockup, except for Nami's which they recoded as its own weird thing in order to nerf it.

hard cc is and always has meant cc that prevents all player action. fear, stun, knockup, suppress.

Neo CyrusOct 9, 20149 votes

Why is it that whenever anyone who says a dumpstered champion like Cass is "fine" they either played it in bots, normals, or in below super-low Elo like in Bronze/Silver? I can't tell if they're trolling or they think the sample size of practically nothing in bot level Elo somehow qualifies as something.

eatthatmeatballOct 9, 20149 votes

Reworked Cassiopeia - the epitome of fixing something that wasn't broken.

Daddy Space LionOct 9, 20148 votes

This is what happens when people don't listen to the feedback, but insist on going with the changes anyways. Nobody wants to redo a champion the third time around, because someone (Stashu) did not want to listen to the feedback. That is why Cassiopeia was abandoned.

Kowe The EwokOct 9, 20148 votes

Maybe they fired Riot Stashu and he can't respond anymore? :p

January 16thOct 9, 20147 votes

Maybe they fired Riot Stashu and he can't respond anymore? :p

I would love this Idea.

DioBrandohOct 8, 20147 votes

Riot pls buff Cass

Old Cass was situational but actually viable. The situations where this new Cass can shine are situations literally any mage would be 5x better in. If you're going to keep this crummy rework at least give her early game damage and create tiered objectives for her passive so you don't have to wait 20 minutes before you can fight people at all. Seriously I have no idea why you didn't create a system where she gets +% AP every few poison stacks so that it's consistent like Nasus/Veigar, you know, two well designed late game champions.

ImpendingDeathOct 8, 20147 votes

They need to revert the rework, especially by removing this crippling passive, and just make the QoL fixes on poison detection with her E. That would leave Cass in a perfectly acceptable spot.

HawkefireOct 9, 20146 votes

They need to revert the rework, especially by removing this crippling passive, and just make the QoL fixes on poison detection with her E. That would leave Cass in a perfectly acceptable spot.

They will NEVER revert the rework. Ever. Even if it was better for the champion in every way (and it certainly is, because the old Cassiopeia is actually EASIER to balance than the mess that they have made, and not only that but she was also VIABLE in her niche...now she doesn't even HAVE a niche and is borderline unviable).

Hopefully riot will get the message and give her another rework though. Just keep pouring on the hate, Riot will eventually get the message, it worked for Skarner (kinda) so it ought to work for Cass.

Edit: Also, I definitely gotta agree with you guys on her portrait change. Gotta be the first splash art downgrade riots ever done.

Grand ElevenOct 9, 20147 votes

I still think if we sit around talking specific "buffs vs nerfs" then Cass is effectively dead. THye basically removed her poison and replaced it with a farming mechanic. That's a fundamental change that I will never accept and feel needs to be reverted.

Frankly I don't care if they buff her to 80% win rate across the board .... as long as she retains that horrific passive she remains in a bad place.

yellowbricksOct 9, 20147 votes

The problem with this passive is that it's a boring as hell stacking passive. I don't play stack mages, they bore me. This rework was like an assassination of the game play I liked. Good thing riot is so attentive to their customers... Oh wait.

If you're going to have an intern rework a good champ, prepare to offer refunds at least if you're going to be hard headed.

RiotRiot StashuOct 10, 20147 votes

Hey Canastus,

I've addressed your concerns here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/gFME3v51-on-the-future-of-cassiopeia-also-some-background. Sorry to redirect you to a different thread, but the post is extremely long so I didn't want to just copy/paste it here.

Also, sorry for taking so long to respond, took me a while to write that :<

Hope that answers your questions~

CanastusOct 19, 20144 votes

I'd appreciate it if you finally started talking with us, you always seem to disappear after holding your speech just to let Cass rot for another patch. So far she didn't recieve any PBE changes, this alone is very disturbing.

Since you're unwilling to hold an actual conversation nor able to present any changes, we can only fear the worst when it comes to the future of Cassiopeia. That is, if she even has one.

Kowe The EwokOct 19, 20145 votes

I'd appreciate it if you finally started talking with us, you always seem to disappear after holding your speech just to let Cass rot for another patch. So far she didn't recieve any PBE changes, this alone is very disturbing.

Since you're unwilling to hold an actual conversation nor able to present any changes, we can only fear the worst when it comes to the future of Cassiopeia. That is, if she even has one.

This. I really don't understand how Riot can let their employees behave like that. In any other job somebody who treated customers/clients like that would've been fired long ago, nothing personal - but that's how it is...

yellowbricksOct 9, 20146 votes

Lol at Cass' Wukong face. "My place is at the top... of the list of shittiest reworks"

Just remember guys, speak with your wallets. If they hear the cha-ching, they'll think everything's great.

ImpendingDeathOct 8, 20145 votes

If you hadn't posted this today, I probably would have. Thank you, Canastus.

CanastusOct 8, 20147 votes

If you hadn't posted this today, I probably would have. Thank you, Canastus.

You can count on me, after all Cassiopeia was the reason why I even got into LoL. The extent of this rework has seriously damaged my relationship with this game and its team, this matter needs to be settled.

Ancient WispOct 9, 20145 votes

Can someone make a petition to just un-rework Cass? I think I speak for almost every (former) Cass main when I say that she was completely balanced/fun and absolutely didn't need a rework. It's like hard nerfing Akali's ult and making her q do a bunch of unnecessary shit. Even if she is somewhat stronger depending on how you look at it, her playstyle is now mind-numbingly boring.

questirOct 9, 20145 votes

Riot and the people saying Cass is fine needs to realize old Cassi had constantly around 50% win rate and 2% pick rate. But since the rework her pick rate was cut in half to 1% and the win ratio went down to 45%. How is that a succesful rework if only the 1% playing her are the Cass players but we can't even get to 50% on across all divisions. Also is sad to see that lots of high elo players that used to main Cass just stopped playing her or quited the game, AsheIsElite, Gentle Sard, RIP Cassio are some of them though

NeroUSOct 10, 20145 votes

Is cassiopeia dependable enough to be a hypercarry? Her range seemed short to me when I played her. I feel like that means that you will get assassinated anyway.

utDOOMOct 9, 20142 votes

Almost every time I've played cass either the enemy jungler had to camp me or I've gotten fed and carried (with the exception of one game).

I start flask and pots, take q first, and max e. E's farming mechanic lets me go without blue once I have tear.

Maybe the problem is that everyone is trying to play cass the old way instead of adapting to the rework.

Just my opinion though. :)

Star WardenOct 9, 20142 votes

Just saying, I played her, and she felt fine. IF you stack your poison passive properly, you'll get a LOT of out her and she's still a good champion. She's an extreme lane bully and should be played as such. If you plan on being passive, don't play her.

The Queen ViperOct 9, 20149 votes

She's an extreme lane bully and should be played as such. If you plan on being passive, don't play her.

She's NOT a lane bully, she's a farm bot. She was a bully before these changes but not anymore... she has too low dmg and too high mana costs to constantly harass/poke people. Cass simply cannot be played like that since she will lose when it comes to trading, will go OOM too fast and many champs just outranges and outdamages her anyways during laning phase.

Also her poisons are rather easy to dodge and any player with a brain could just ignore her in lane completely and go roaming instead, which forces Cass to get stacks from farming only. Plus there's no point to play her anyways, Ryze / Veigar / Nasus will do much better and can actually contribute something to your team before late game.

Cass is not fine, she's trash.

Defnist47Oct 9, 20142 votes

That's the thing, she IS a lane bully. She isn't the best in this meta of course. But she still holds pretty well i think because of her ability to constantly harass. "she's a farm bot" kinda like how every champion has to farm? That's not a"specific roll" and you can still farm while harassing. Cass is fine, she's not trash. Maybe you're taking up after the EUW legacy by being bad

The Queen ViperOct 9, 20149 votes

That's the thing, she IS a lane bully.

Nope, she's not a bully, not anymore. She still has low mobility, low range, delayed skillshots and has so low dmg / high mana costs @ early, that she really cannot bully anyone, except some melee or similar low ranged champions. Cass is not viable mid pick anymore which is why so many people play her at top now.

But she still holds pretty well i think because of her ability to constantly harass.

Without a proper mana item you simply cannot do that or you will run OOM really fast. She used to be able to constantly harass thanks to her old passive, however now that's just a dream. You either use your mana to farm or to harass, you just cannot afford to do both early.

"she's a farm bot" kinda like how every champion has to farm?

Depends. Most of the champs can cut some farming and go roaming... Cass however, doesn't have that option now since if you do, you will lose potential stacks and postpone your max even more further into the late game. She's essentially glued to her lane now before she gets the proper amount of stacks.

Cass is fine, she's not trash.

She is trash compared to what she used to be. She's not fine... half of her player base/pick rates is now gone and her winrates are down all across the elo-board, so please stop being delusional.