@Riot - Regarding your philosophy for reworks.

Canastus··195 votes·9,491 views

http://i.imgur.com/iPkFWhy.png

So let me get this straight - if a popular champion like Riven or Lee Sin become the target of a rework, you're willing to revert your changes if they don't meet general expectations. Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

So how come some of the most controversial reworks (Cassiopeia, Mordekaiser and Veigar to name some of them) didn't receive the same kind of consideration from you? Not only did these reworks cause a serious breach within the playerbase, they also showed how inherently broken any of your reworks are. Two of those mentioned champions had abyssmal winrates for months until they finally received some much needed numberbuffs.

Naturally people started picking those champions once they finally did the job they were intended to do and what's your reaction? In several cases you gut them into unviability - and we're back to square one. The most prominent example has to be Cassiopeia, a champion whose rework marks the worst in the history of this game so far. Zero interaction between the people in charge of the project and the affected playerbase, extended periods of radio silence and changes that no one even asked for.

It's just too bad her name wasn't Riven or Lee Sin, otherwise she would have been spared the inevitable gutting you enacted on her few months later. Now we're stuck with a champion who's lost their identity in favor of some twisted fantasy which even went as far to destroy any previous play- or build diversity she once had.

Your reworks all seem to follow a certain pattern - you're trying to force a champion into a certain niché while removing any playstyle they had before which went beyond that perceived role.

You don't seem to understand however that this kind of freedom was the main reason people even played those champions since it made them flexibile and thus a lot more viable. By killing any diversity they once possessed, you severely dumbed them down while alienating the people who were dedicated enough to master those champions.

I think it's about time you started taking some responsibility for what you've done instead of leaving the affected parties in the dust after you've finished violating their beloved champions without any hope of even influencing their development.

244 Comments

RISE Shlack12392 votes

They say they are willing to pull back reworks, but they never do. We all know why - champion designers have HUGE egos. Sad, but true. And this type of mentality from the top down is going to be what kills League.

Emmy Cha0s48 votes

item 3070 Sona item 3070

Earthpine35 votes

item 3070 Karma item 3070

theninjajedi14 votes

personally i played both Sona and Karma before their reworks and I think they are both very fun to play. sona didnt get reworked that much anyone her core of a spam spellcaster that autos you like a ton of bricks.

Solaxo31 votes

{quoted}

personally i played both Sona and Karma before their reworks and I think they are both very fun to play. sona didnt get reworked that much anyone her core of a spam spellcaster that autos you like a ton of bricks.

Karma completely lost her indentity though. Imagine if you're playing Ezreal and he's suddenly changed into a poison-based champion with no skillshots..

The5lacker6 votes

Karma did not lose her identity. Her identity was not her fans. Her identity was a spammy caster who supported her team while smashing the enemy who frequently hulked out with flashy variations on her main spells. New Karma goes about this differently, but the core concept is the same, and she's objectively better for the game as a whole now. I played her before the rework. I play her after the rework. The Karma rework was a success.

Now, the Cass rework and the Juggernauts however...

Thryale13 votes

but she did lose her identity. do I miss the fans? sure. where they integral to her core identity? nope.

Karma's core identity her mantras and how they created a 'paradigm shift.' New karma is more like heimerdinger's "upgrade." Old karma would turn an offensive spell into offense/defense or a defensive spell into defense/offense. Both of which offered excellent decision making and great flexibility. New karma just powers up her current spells, offense to super offense, defense to super defense.

So yes, karma DID lose her identity in the rework.

Hinagiku3313 votes

Yes, yes she did.

Karma's theme and identity was "Karma" and duality.

She had a damage cone that could also heal allies with Mantra. She had a slow/damage tether that also sped up allies. She had a huge shield that also dealt damage around it with Mantra. She had a passive that made her spells more powerful as you dealt more damage to her.

She no longer has duality anywhere in her kit. Her name no longer makes any sense at all.

Yes, I'd say her identity was lost.

only zhule8 votes

{quoted}

personally i played both Sona and Karma before their reworks and I think they are both very fun to play. sona didnt get reworked that much anyone her core of a spam spellcaster that autos you like a ton of bricks.

Sona's play style... it's subtle but it's really different now. Mostly in that her utility got gutted, and with lower damage she is MUCH harder to get those kills on low health enemies (can't tell you how many champs have gotten away or killed me with like 5% or less health because i only have the one damage ability)

I hate my ADC3 votes

What? Her utility is stronger than ever for anyone who know how to properly utilize her. It's no more a passive aura bot and now synergize with her ADC a lot better. If you know how to position yourself properly, you are the best back line utility support in the game. The movespeed allow your ADC and mage nuker to reposition quickly, the heal give sustain and provide your frontline with heals when they need it, the shield cover your back line in case of any attempt at attacking them while the Q provide your ADC with damage and cause any assassin or enemy carry to get their face melted if they dare engage on your back line.

Her damage also got boosted on both burst and sustain, not reduced. This is all because of the Q giving her next auto (and any friendly champion in the aura) a shit ton of damage.

Sona isn't a passive bot anymore. You have to be active now to get the most out of her and she accomplish her role very well, both in lane and in late game when used with the right team composition and combined with the proper ADC.

only zhule8 votes

{quoted}

What? Her utility is stronger than ever for anyone who know how to properly utilize her. It's no more a passive aura bot and now synergize with her ADC a lot better. If you know how to position yourself properly, you are the best back line utility support in the game. The movespeed allow your ADC and mage nuker to reposition quickly, the heal give sustain and provide your frontline with heals when they need it, the shield cover your back line in case of any attempt at attacking them while the Q provide your ADC with damage and cause any assassin or enemy carry to get their face melted if they dare engage on your back line.

Her damage also got boosted on both burst and sustain, not reduced. This is all because of the Q giving her next auto (and any friendly champion in the aura) a shit ton of damage.

Sona isn't a passive bot anymore. You have to be active now to get the most out of her and she accomplish her role very well, both in lane and in late game when used with the right team composition and combined with the proper ADC.

Your funny. You however forgot to mention that with her vastly limited "aura" range she suffers if the enemies can even remotely engage, what with her no escape mechanic (the speed boost will not save you from a hard engage). We could also talk about how weak the heal is, while somewhat offset by the shield i would honestly rather have a bigger heal then a super short term shield, might consider different if i didn't have to basically kiss the check of every ally i wanted to give it to. We could also talk about the fact that the shield ability even at max CDR is on a 6 second cooldown (and the shield only lasts 1.5 seconds) 6 seconds i a lot of time for an enemy to blow your ally away as you stand there unable to cast any helpful spell.

Her damage boost is much lower then it use to be (and doesn't work on structures), while the bonus magic damage sounds nice I think most people would rather have a flat +20 AD&AP. As for melting face you aren't going to be doing that if you build a defensive type of sona, and if you are building her as an AP mage i would damn well hope that your 400-700 AP plus item 3100 was putting out some half decent damage numbers. We could also talk about how after the rework her spells all got longer cooldowns (of varying length) so her old ability to chain gun spells, what with their old cooldowns all being the same length, was gutted... along with a lot of her damage in the form of a 60% nerf to her empowered powercord.

My issue isn't fully with the removal of her passive play style. It's that they changed her into a character that has to be very much in the center of battle to be effective, BUT didn't give her anything to compensate for the more risky positioning she now needed to take. This also doesn't even touch on how her core identity was shit on. Again i like the lack of her being a passive stat boost bot, But this new "one and done" concept is just a joke. Say i hit all my allies with a spell in the initial cast, i now have an aura that does nothing for an additional 2 seconds. I can't reapply a damage boost, i can't refresh a shield, i can't provide a speed boost for my allies longer then 1.5 seconds. On the flip side the bonus time also is rarely enough to allow you to tag an additional ally that you would have missed without it.

My issues with her are basically i don't feel you should have to be that close to the front line for your spells to effect your teammates, and that if you are building a character around the idea of giving out buffs the buffs should not be one time use (nor do we need the always active passive bonuses). I would much rather see her with something like a 500-600 range aura (pre-rework it was over 1000) that gave bonuses for the entire time it was active. Keep the bonus time per ally tagged (maybe even staying on even if the song is switched), but make it so that the bonuses only apply if you stay within range of the aura. This keeps her from being a totally passive buff bot but also doesn't make a glass cannon with no CC (outside of ultimate) have to be in the front line to help her allies, she can stay in the middle to back line and still be useful without being so far out of reach that she can never be caught.

RainbowIcee4 votes

I'm mad how her R + Q burst now does less damage than the regular Q unless they eat the R+Q explosion which no one really does. So her poke game is weak shit now.

Melledoneus2 votes

Karma mid is stronger than Talon and Orianna at the moment. And she's a support.

Thryale11 votes

she's not just a support, and it's players like you pigeon holing champs to a role why karma got a rework in the first place. Karma has been, and always will be, a mage. Mages can both be mid laners and supports depending on the needs of your team I still to this day remember when morgonna was always picked mid lane. But due to how well her kit worked with a partner, she made a seamless transition bot lane.

The entire reason karma was reworked is because ppl never played her because she sucked as a 0 cs ward robot bot laner (season 2 was dark times ppl, no gold income items, no trinkets, no sight stones, I still remember an LCS match where Xspecial only bot lvl1 boots and consumables the entire match) But she was godly when given gold from the mid lane. But I was forced to stop playing her because the community was so toxic that every time I played her I'd be raged at, queue dodged, and blamed for any and ever loss just for playing karma. Didn't matter if I went 5/2/12 and my jungler went 1/13/4, it was still my (karma's) fault we lost the game. It's that reason why I stopped playing her and that reason why her play rate was low and her win rates were even lower.

Melledoneus1 votes

She's more played as a support than anything else. Her poke in lane is godly and her utility can stop ganks from happening. The amount of damage and utility she brings to a team is insane.

Meanwhile, Talon barely gets enough damage to kill an ADC with his combo with 3 full AD items. And a crappy .25 second slow on his E to replace the silence he was balanced around. Karma's auto attacks deal more damage to Talon than he can to her. Karma can negate his entire combo with a shield, she can lock him down in stealth, she can insta-gib him with R+Q, etc.

Please don't tell me you think Karma is underpowered. Because she is ANYTHING but that.

banthor115 votes

{quoted}

She's more played as a support than anything else. Her poke in lane is godly and her utility can stop ganks from happening. The amount of damage and utility she brings to a team is insane.

Meanwhile, Talon barely gets enough damage to kill an ADC with his combo with 3 full AD items. And a crappy .25 second slow on his E to replace the silence he was balanced around. Karma's auto attacks deal more damage to Talon than he can to her. Karma can negate his entire combo with a shield, she can lock him down in stealth, she can insta-gib him with R+Q, etc.

Please don't tell me you think Karma is underpowered. Because she is ANYTHING but that.

Not sure which person you're addressing. I can't say Karma is underpowered now. Riot can make any post rework (or otherwise) champion strong by throwing a pile of Ratios and Stats at it (see Juggernaut rework) if they're determined enough to make them work. New Karma got several times more patch work done in her first couple of months than old Karma got in her lifetime.

That said perhaps the issue is less that Karma is stronger than Orianna and Talon at mid, and more that Talon and Orianna simply need tweaks/buffs themselves (given Mid is what they're supposed to do well in)

banthor1110 votes

Pretty much this with old Karma. She got destroyed before Riot started allowing supports to have gold income. Community is partly to blame for niche-pick hate, but that has never stopped being a thing.

The biggest problem with her play rate may have just been that Riot dropped her from Free-to-play rotation. Getting dropped from rotation is basically a death sentence for a champion and given enough time Riot can just make the excuse of "Well people don't play here much anymore so we're doing this" regardless of viability. Not being able to get a feel for a champion before dropping IP/RP on it makes a HUGE difference in the amount of play that champion sees.

Sorry Riot I see what you're doing there, even if its not intentional.

Sion had major mechanical issues that made him bad (abilities split between AP scaling and AD scaling/ awkward cooldowns, etc.).

The Old Karma was simply the victim of of one of the worst, most unfavorable Support metas for what she brought to teams, getting taken off rotation for little reason, and never getting any tweaks in the patch notes after the 1st 2 weeks.

Karma didn't get reworked for being bad, Riot took no effort in ever making her appear good.

Blue Moon Wolf4 votes

item 3070 Mordekaiser item 3070

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Sona's player base did ask for her skills to be more visible. Technically they got what they asked for. . .

Chromatic Eagle6 votes

More like they're very busy doing other things. It's more accurate to say that they should learn to think out reworks better before changing a champion's identity.

Tomatosx19 votes

item 3070 Cassiopeia item 3070

Mortekaiser58 votes

i don't play cassio or veigar much to comment on them, but I do know and can report that morde had no need to be reworked at all. he had been in the game for so long and his gameplay was known well enough that players who knew how to play him and against him could succeed. he had clear strengths and weaknesses, could be dealt with by almost every champ in some manner, and his gameplay was simple and straight forward. pre-rework morde had a 51% winrate.

you know what he didn't have?

a massive playerbase that could stand up and shout down the toxic and polarizing rework. instead, he was a niche champ for some, and a solid pick for those who mained him.

but hey, lets make more skins and ignore the fact that morde's old playstyle was completely fucking dumpstered.

Canastus24 votes

I agree. It was exactly the same for Cass, a perfectly balanced 50% winrate and a dedicated playerbase that knew how to work with the champion. Sure, we may have been minority mains but we still had some very vocal defenders for our cause. And yet it didn't stop them at all from doing what they've done.

CinderDragon779 votes

I feel your pain, I understood that Nid had some really problematic playstyle issues with the whole spears oneshotting you with no risk on a low cd along with her easy escapes and healing, what does riot do to "rework" her, they give her cougar at level 1 which makes her main weak point which was pre-6 really easy to breeze through along with that hunted passive with really high numbers for early game, and nerf her spear and heal, ok maybe they're getting somewhere with making her more fun but less frustrating to play against with some number tweaks and stuff maybe we can get somewhere.(I mean you guys could've removed her heal/nerfed her mobility a bit and focused on her cougar form but alright if you think you can work with...)

...oh, now they tack on a passive that lets her hunt jungle monsters which makes her clear really strong early on in the jungle, alright let's just remove the passive change and....oh you can remove all the damage from her traps instead I guess, oh it's fine if you nerf her durability b/c you guys want her to stay at the back of fights, oh you say that you want her to jump in, then why are you nerfing her durability then nerfing her spears and scouting potential saying that you guys want her to jump in more often, pretty sure that making her squishier and making her do less damage is going to just force her even more into the now really subpar spamming spears playstyle that riot has forced her into and says they hate.

So much for laning as nidalee anymore, riot says nope, screw all you guys that actually liked playing nidalee before her rework, don't worry, you can play lee sin instead guys, he's getting his rework reverted because LC$BIGPLAY$ and some buffs for good measure.

Isn't it super fun having your champion be a shadow of their former selves and weaker in every way too? That's why all the lee sin mains complained about riot reworking him because he would be too much fun right? /s

Malicious Metal36 votes

The funny thing is that all the detailed, objective and generally well-laid out posts on Mordekaiser got COMPLETELY ignored all the while the spiteful uproar from Lee sin/Riven players get responses on the spot! It truly breaks my Hueart that all our efforts were in vain trying to preserve our champion's identity. Yes, he had issues. Yes, he was somewhat unfun to play against so (not as much as riven though :p) And yes, in the long run he needed a rework.

But just ripping his identity from him and leaving the few people who liked the champ in the dust is NOT nice. Not at all...

~M.M

Dengeden3 votes

Pre-rework morde had counterplay built into everything that he did ... which is a bad thing.

His success was based entirely on how incompetent his opponents were.

Malicious Metal9 votes

While at the same time rewarding him for juggling AoE's and ultimate usage in order to stay alive through spellvamp and gis shield. He had some more interesting aspects other than relying one ONE skill

Dengeden3 votes

No. He just did no damage unless fed, you killed his team and cleansed his ult. Then you killed him.

Baron of Bread9 votes

How is that any different from a description of him now? You don't have to cleanse his ult because it does jack crap for damage? Heck, even if he is fed he does no damage if you hit him with a slow or knock back.

Final Boss Naut6 votes

{quoted}

i don't play cassio or veigar much to comment on them, but I do know and can report that morde had no need to be reworked at all. he had been in the game for so long and his gameplay was known well enough that players who knew how to play him and against him could succeed. he had clear strengths and weaknesses, could be dealt with by almost every champ in some manner, and his gameplay was simple and straight forward. pre-rework morde had a 51% winrate.

you know what he didn't have?

a massive playerbase that could stand up and shout down the toxic and polarizing rework. instead, he was a niche champ for some, and a solid pick for those who mained him.

but hey, lets make more skins and ignore the fact that morde's old playstyle was completely fucking dumpstered.

upvote, because i liked maxing W in solo lane morde.

Emmy Cha0s32 votes

Well yup, that just about sums it all up very accurately.

Every time Riot does another of these "reworks", they place the first random employee that jumps at the job in charge of the entire thing. That's always someone who has never played that champion, doesn't frequently play with or against them and they simply want to force their own idea on that champ's players with 0 regard for voiced concerns and complaints. They have no actual clue what the champion's theme, playstyle or minute characteristics are and frankly they don't care regardless, which ends up in all of this completely disappearing without a trace of having existed before.

It's no wonder they're nearly always spectacular failures that just results in an angry playerbase and even further tarnishing of Riot's reputation.

Canastus24 votes

Absolutely right. Their natural response to those failures is to slap huge numbers on the reworked kits which only proves how flawed their designs really are. Since the resulting powerlevels are considered too strong, they get nerfed again and we're stuck with a champion who's worse than ever before.

Emmy Cha0s16 votes

Indeed that is true and some champion cases have been even worse off than that. After being unanimously dubbed a complete failure, Riot will just choose to skip the big numbers altogether and go straight into nerfing them to falsely make it seem like the initial release was somehow successful.

This is the propaganda approach as opposed to the "see, it really did work and totes has nothing to do with the massive buff we just did" scenario. Both have occurred more than once and they're equally disgusting.

Chromatic Eagle8 votes

Just because there have been a few terrible ones, doesn't mean they've all been bad.

Arcana Lancer22 votes

Anyone willing to bet that not a single red will reply on this thread? They seem to avoid this kind of conversation cuz it might hurt their ego.

Malicious Metal16 votes

After having wasted countless hours coming up with Mordekaiser discussion threads I've lost any hope of Riot ever coming down from their throne of E$ports money :/

freeformline11 votes

I think they avoid this kind of thread because they usually just get flamed when they arrive. A lot of people lack the self-restraint necessary to have a civil conversation with somebody that they are mad at, so a lot of Rioters are inclined to avoid the more heated threads.

BakedLotion9 votes

{quoted}

I think they avoid this kind of thread because they usually just get flamed when they arrive. A lot of people lack the self-restraint necessary to have a civil conversation with somebody that they are mad at, so a lot of Rioters are inclined to avoid the more heated threads.

Sike. They don't reply unless its a thread telling them how good they're doing and saying "Thank you! We try!" The OP is pretty civilized and so are the posters.. I haven't seen a single rage post. Are you just saying this because this is what you believe, or is it cause a Rioter said it?

Cowgirl Ed16 votes

Cassiopeia and Mordekaiser were the most retarded reworks, they should have pulled back those

Kögâ13 votes

And dont forget the giant F**K YOU they give out to these players after they reworked there champions they have no interest in playing, they wont even refund the skins you bought for them.

MasterVidallis11 votes

Personally the one that frustrated me the most was the Fiora visual rework. She looked great before. Nearly no one liked the changes, they were a downgrade and still are. There were countless threads about it. Yet they just refused to do the simple, easy thing which was to just go back to the old model and just update its textures.

Fucking ego is all there was to it.

Canastus7 votes

Oh god yes, the visual updates. They're a massive issue, too.

Thanks for reminding me about that. Rest in peace, Desperada Cass.

Zedex2 votes

Yes, you're right, it was all purely Riot's ego that made them improve an old champion.

Logic 0/10

MasterVidallis8 votes

The ego reference was about them refusing the revert the visual rework after the negative response to it. Learn to read.

The Whamboozler9 votes

Oh god, tell me about it. I tried to refund my Fiora skins when they revealed that monster of an update to her art and in-game model. They took away her three-part cape for god's sake. The very item that they themselves admitted was "an iconic visual of the character" when a thread popped up asking why Project Fiora still had it and all the other Fiora skins didn't.

They also gave her a horse face and a goofy prancing walking animation that would make sense on Monty Python, but not for a graceful fencer. That Fiora VU was completely unneeded and a failure in every way.

Athenes Lulu8 votes

It's not surprising that they play favoritism among champs.

Come on, they already do within their own employees, so it's not a surprise when it comes to champs ingame.

lostbob1177 votes

This is not a rework. This is a change that they know is very experimental. Just like lots of things that go on PBE a lot of the time.

Emmy Cha0s25 votes

It's been said on countless occasions that Riot doesn't actually use PBE as a testing ground, just a preview of what WILL be on the next patch. Anything that goes on there is almost guaranteed to be pushed onto the Live servers with complete disresgard to player feedback, even if it be loud and unanimous.

This has held true countless times, this entire thread's existence is unshakable proof of that.

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