I think conquerer managed to be unhealthier than fervor

Tychusfindlay918·Jul 9, 2018·60 votes·14,630 views

It can be prepared on non-champions (unlike fervor) and it gives you access to a great amount of true damage (unlike fervor).

Way back when I remember one of the counterpoints against fervor was that it could be kept passively by attacking any target (this is why people said it was unhealthy compared to say PtA), but is conquerer any different? If you're a melee champion it doesnt matter who you hit, you're getting conquerer reset. Fervor had been near perfectly balanced before it got axed, so I can't understand why it's so difficult to just swap out conquerer for fervor.

111 Comments

heroikcJul 9, 201816 votes

It's too toxic against tanks, even if they try to build armor. Rip Ornn Poppy and other tanks...

RalanrJul 9, 20189 votes

I mean...it's flat true damage as far as I can tell. So you can build health.

heroikcJul 9, 201813 votes

{quoted}

I mean...it's flat true damage as far as I can tell. So you can build health.

Doesn't really matter too much given the DPS of champs like Yas, Darius, Aatrox, Riven, Kled, Trynd, etc, especially since it can be prepared on minions even at level one.

What do tanks have? a hope to get enough gold for a 400 gold item 1028 that grants 150 health. Runes? Not much, really; Resolve is typically good on tanks, but Grasp relies on protracted fights (made pointless given the Conqueror user's increased DPS) and Aftershock is made moot because the armor bonuses are negated by true damage. Maybe Arcane Comet and Aery can combo with strong poke like those of Sion, Maokai, Galio, etc, but I doubt they'd build real tank.

Bob the ToastrJul 9, 201835 votes

MasterYi item 3153 item 1419 item 3124 + conquerer

wHy dOn'T YOu jUST BuILd heAlTh???

RalanrJul 9, 201815 votes

Dude, it's Yi. If he has that many items by mid you ain't gonna do shit against him.

ElohavenJul 9, 201811 votes

They nerfed all health items for tanks BTW. That's an issue

RalanrJul 9, 20186 votes

Yes I am aware. I was around for the tank rework and I’m a tank main.

I am very bloody aware of that fact.

ElohavenJul 9, 20184 votes

It was in response and coupled to:

{quoted}

I mean...it's flat true damage as far as I can tell. So you can build health.

AhpeJul 10, 20182 votes

I'm just curious, what about about playing tanks appeal to you. I'm aware certain tanks could actually take skill and are fun like Poppy , Shen or Sion . I just want your take on it.

RalanrJul 10, 20182 votes

Honestly the only tanks I like playing at the moment are Sion and Poppy. Beyond that, I don’t understand the question.

AhpeJul 10, 20181 votes

What made/makes tanks fun for you?

RalanrJul 10, 20182 votes

Well with Sion, it's a mixture of thematics and ability. All of his abilities feel very impactful and cover a wide area, but they aren't really instant. You need to time and plan carefully.

Poppy I like because she's forced to look for mistakes in her opponent more and abuse them.

I guess I like tanks who have more conditions they need to meet in order to win a trade.

AhpeJul 10, 20181 votes

So tanks that take skill?

RalanrJul 10, 20182 votes

More or less, yeah.

AirKingNeoJul 10, 20182 votes

late game carry in low income role hitting late game deals high damage

who guessed

Crescent DuskJul 9, 20183 votes

DPS scales far better than HP, so as the game goes longer the more irrelevant a tank becomes.

I had a Garen with 9/0 against yasuo top lane. I had trinity, randuins, tabi, and thornplate.

For the first 15 levels I stomped him as you would expect anyone with 7 kills on their lane opponent.

My other teammates were chasing kills rather than objectives so the game got lengthened and Yasuo simply farmed for his PD+IE, and finally got his Bloodthirster.

With Bloodthirster, the Yasuo who I could get to half health in 1 Q+E earlier suddenly had such absurd self healing and damage output that he healed through both me and Rammus and killed me in 1v1 in 7 seconds flat.

Armor items are total garbage next to lifesteal abusing conqueror champs like yasuo/fiora/darius.

What's the point of doing well with a garbage early champ like garen, stomping lane, only for one item to turn a stomp into a raid boss.

RalanrJul 9, 20182 votes

Damage always outscales defense. Sucks but that's the game.
It's not really your fault here. Your team just let Yasuo get ahead (that's the annoying thing about Yasuo. Even if he's behind, he can seem like he was never behind once he picks up a few kills mid game).

I'm not saying Conquorer isn't a problem, I don't like it either. But I don't think bringing fervor back will fix the original problems. Fervor will just be used by the majority of fighters, from divers to juggernauts, to skirmishers. That alone is bad design amongst the fighter class imo.

Romans VI XXIIIJul 9, 20183 votes

Removing the massive amounts of true damage is a start tho. IE and conqueror need to be changed, removing the true damage, and resistances need to be buffed across the board on tank items

Daddy Tie Me UpJul 10, 20181 votes

IE is literally useless. If IE was actually good there wouldnt be whole class of champions DEAD. Yes I am talking about crit adcs. THEY ARE DEAD. Because IE is thrash. And conqueror is the only thing making top lane playable for any fighter that cant rush cleaver. Which is A FUCKING LOT.

Romans VI XXIIIJul 11, 20181 votes

Crit ADC's are only "DEAD" due to snowballing, and short games, as they can not get to their designed late game. Come late game a Crit ADC wins hard, but because of this damage creep they are struggling to get their 3 item power spike.

Fix this Damage Creep/Snowballing/Short Games and you will see that Crit ADCs are actually right where thy need to be.

IMO IE did not need to be changed to deal true damage, that was a BAD design choice. Keeping the Old 250% crit would have been better, along with the new double crit passive.

Gregorovic08Jul 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Damage always outscales defense. Sucks but that's the game.

It's not really your fault here. Your team just let Yasuo get ahead (that's the annoying thing about Yasuo. Even if he's behind, he can seem like he was never behind once he picks up a few kills mid game).

I'm not saying Conquorer isn't a problem, I don't like it either. But I don't think bringing fervor back will fix the original problems. Fervor will just be used by the majority of fighters, from divers to juggernauts, to skirmishers. That alone is bad design amongst the fighter class imo.

I'm genuinely curious but what makes damage outscale defense?

RalanrJul 9, 20181 votes

Something to do with the math behind resistances.

I think (I’m probably wrong) that 1 Armor is only worth 75% of 1AD in effectiveness.

Gregorovic08Jul 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Something to do with the math behind resistances.

I think (I’m probably wrong) that 1 Armor is only worth 75% of 1AD in effectiveness.

Ah, okay. Do you think it should be like that or vice versa?

RalanrJul 9, 20183 votes

Whenever I suggest tanks should get a buff people start complaining about how braindead the class is and how they should belong in the gutter.

So I’ve mostly just accepted what it is and deal with it.

Gregorovic08Jul 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Whenever I suggest tanks should get a buff people start complaining about how braindead the class is and how they should belong in the gutter.

So I’ve mostly just accepted what it is and deal with it.

Yeah. I know the feeling. Another thing I've always thought about is why tanks seem to fall off late game but people still complain about things like the unkillable sion/poppy/singed when their winrates, although they don't show everything, do fall of late game despite the "unkillable" accusations.

RalanrJul 9, 20183 votes

Because people usually refer to “unkillable in a 1v1” or because sometimes the tank doesn’t die but his team does so he can’t stop for shit.

I like to think it’s the former.

heroikcJul 10, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Because people usually refer to “unkillable in a 1v1” or because sometimes the tank doesn’t die but his team does so he can’t stop for shit.

I like to think it’s the former.

As a "former" tank main, I can agree it's the former. And it's typically hilarious ^^ Not like tanky fighters are worse, though...

My Waifu VanillaJul 10, 20182 votes

Math and basic game design. If building defense always made you outscale damage you would literally NEVER build damage because you could just build defensive and just work with whatever base damages you had.

Romans VI XXIIIJul 9, 20183 votes

Lmfao. Except it makes ALL damage deal a % in True damage. Including MAX HP damage. So yea, building health does not directly counter it.

RalanrJul 9, 20183 votes

So if the max health damage was 100, and conquerer turns 20% of that into true damage, then only 20 damage actually becomes true damage.

It doesn’t directly counter it, but it helps. Especially if you have resistance against the basic damage hitting you.

Romans VI XXIIIJul 11, 20181 votes

Do you know how math works?

If you hit with a 10% Max HP spell on a 1000 Max HP target, conqueror would deal 1000*(.1)*(.2) = 20 True Damage, Or 2% of their Max HP.

Now take that SAME 10% Max HP Spell on a 3000 max HP target, and conqueror deals 3000*(.1)*(.2) = 60 True Damage, Or 2% of their Max HP.

Both situations conqueror deals 2% of their HP.

So yes building Health does not directly counter it, as it has a work around due to the way it works (with certain champions/items).

Conqueror does not deal FLAT damage, it deals 20% of YOUR damage in True damage, What ever type of damage that may be (Flat/%Max/%Missing/%Current)

RalanrJul 11, 20181 votes

Before or after mitigation?

Sire HippingtonJul 9, 20181 votes

The real question is, do we really need either? Any conqueror user can do well with either PTA, Lethal Tempo or Grasp, some wvwn have other options, like darius takeing hail of blades, and fleet foodwork is supprisingly has been buffed quite a bit for melees. One of the main issues right befor conqueror was added has been bruiser struggling in top. However, alot of that has been them beeing terible in teamfights and that didn't change, and the other was haveing issues to win 1v1 vs tanks, and the main reason why they felt like they have no proper keystone was that all the starting stats were tied to the keystone, so going grasp ment not getting any agressive stats for the early laneing. Tanks have been nerfed directly and indirectly since then, bruisers have better midgame teamfighting as adc need longer to get online and 1v1 leads snowball harder, and starting stats are now split between primary and secundary rune-path, so i don't think conqueror really is needed atm, and **IF **bruisers would feel bad without it, one could finally allow people to choose startign stats independend of keystones, so i can get grasp and a mix of ad+as rather than beeing stuck with the scaleing health that is not to great when you want dominant laneing.

NaymlissJul 9, 20186 votes

Riven

Take away Conq and she literally has no way to deal with anyone who builds anything resembling a tank item.

Automated RivenJul 9, 201830 votes

No. Black cleaver and last whisper upgrades are enough. But considering how good riven is against squishy champions it's ok if she struggles against tanks. She doesn't have to be a vs all champion.

RalanrJul 9, 201822 votes

You’re like one of the only Riven mains I’ve seen say it’s ok for Riven to struggle against tanks.

Can I hug you?

Automated RivenJul 9, 201815 votes

Sure.

But seriously. Vs all champs are extremely hard to balance. But I prefer balance over my main being OP.

And considering how hard she can punish squishy champions it would be fair that tanks are hard for her to deal with.

RainXBladeJul 10, 20181 votes

Vs all champs are extremely hard to balance.

Which is why Yi is actually hard to balance despite how simple his kit is.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 10, 20181 votes

Squieshy champions top? Squieshy champions are either ranged (which Riven struggles against) or.. Fiora? Most toplane champions are tanky bruisers or outright tanks and Riven would struggle against them without Conqueror. Riven 100% needs Conqueror.

Automated RivenJul 10, 20182 votes

Riven is fine into bruisers. and she only struggles against ranged champions early, After six if they mis position once she just kills them. All that being said, its still ok if she cannot kill tanks. Tanks have always been unkillable for her after their first back. She teamfights very well and has a ton of AOE damage. And with or without conqueror she will out scale tanks in a 1v1. and most bruiser matchups are skill matchups with a mild favoring 1 way or the other in favor of riven or against her.

Champions which dont struggle against anyone are literally the epitome of inbalanced. Riven should struggle against tanks. (not like in preseason of course. But she should not be able to snowball against them if they play passably.)

TEA Nietzsche Jul 10, 20181 votes

Riven is fine into bruisers

Yes, because of Conqueror. She was NOT fine before that.

she only struggles against ranged champions early, After six if they mis position once she just kills them

Yes, that's just ridiculously wrong. Riven struggles with Kennen, Jayce, Quinn and Teemo and they'd have to missplay hard to lose to her.

Tanks have always been unkillable for her after their first back.

Not with FoB.

She teamfights very well and has a ton of AOE damage.

Seriously? Are you seriously suggesting that it's okay for Riven not to be able to kill tanks because she out-teamfights them? Tanks completely invalidate Riven in teamfights so if she doesn't have sidelane pressure to be there earlier for a skirmish/catch then that's absolutely terrible!

And with or without conqueror she will out scale tanks in a 1v1.

No. They can just clear the waves, walk away and use their superior teamfighting to win - or just turn with the help of their jungler. Riven needs Conqueror for the sidelane pressure.

Champions which dont struggle against anyone are literally the epitome of inbalanced

Riven has several matchups she struggles against, including the likes of Cho'Gath. If she was struggling against tanks then she should have the clear edge against eg bruisers - - which is not the case.

Do you seriously believe that Riven right now is 'the epitome of inbalanced'?

not like in preseason of course

Without Conqueror we are back to preseason status. Also, we've had tank meta for so long and it's the most toxic toplane meta in terms of gameplay (tank meta means that tanks simply shove the lane and pressure with as little interaction as possible - any type of bruiser meta is vastly superior. I don't hate tanks, they are great for Jgl/Support or specific tanks like Shen who don't have tons of waveclear)

Automated RivenJul 10, 20181 votes

I honestly don't understand your obsession with conqueror on riven. It's honestly not that good unless there are two tanks. Or a hyper tank and due to team comps you have to split into him. Comet, phase rush, klepto, aery, Aftershock, grasp, and spellbook are all good on her in specific matchups. Conqueror is honestly the most niche of all of them. And you should almost never run it into bruisers. Aftershock is better against Ren and Jax then conqueror is. Comet or phase rush against darius tryna and the like. I can get a list.

Also jayce and Kennen are the only two ranged toplaners who consistently give riven trouble. She can build tabis against Quinn and basically ignore harrass and shove and roam. And hexdrinker completely nullifies Teemo.

And no. Riven's Is not the epitome of unbalance. However there is a reason picking tanks is trolling ATM. They are completely useless all game long. They get beaten up early in lane due to shit tons of nerfs. They lose mid and late due to conqueror (where they already lost due to sustain and armor pen) (except orn, that guy was broken as shit in preseason)

Conqueror is a problem. Toplaners never needed it. They needed tanks to not deal 50% of their hp at level 1 while entering lane with 300+ HP down. That was fixed. The patches right before conqueror came out tanks were just mildly too strong. Tiny nerfs to damage was all that was needed.

Without conqueror we are still at a place where tanks maybe are strong. Which would actually force crit adc's back into the game to deal with them. Altho they would STILL lose the splitpush post 15 minutes. And would rely on teamfighting.

And as for riven's matchups. How hard she struggles in them is directly correlated to her skill. Chogath is an easy matchup. You simply don't fight him and outscale. He teamfights like garbage. All of his skills are hugely telegraphed behind extremely long cast times and the only thing he is good for is taking up space and flash ulting the adc. However riven can snowball the game way harder then chogath can. Unless she feeds him. Ya there are some matchups she struggles with. However Ren is probably the hardest ATM. But if you take Aftershock instead of conqueror it's extremely easy not to die. Which is the most important.

I think you feel riven is worse then she is because your taking conqueror all the damn time instead of proper runes.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xwo2H8EL,comment-id=0003000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-10T18:59:35.152+0000)

I honestly don't understand your obsession with conqueror on riven. It's honestly not that good unless there are two tanks. Or a hyper tank and due to team comps you have to split into him. Comet, phase rush, klepto, aery, Aftershock, grasp, and spellbook are all good on her in specific matchups. Conqueror is honestly the most niche of all of them. And you should almost never run it into bruisers. Aftershock is better against Ren and Jax then conqueror is. Comet or phase rush against darius tryna and the like. I can get a list.

I strongly disagree. All these runes may be viable depending on playstyle/matchup, however Conqueror is simply best in most matchups, the overall most useful one and the one with the best scaling. I do run Aftershock/Electrocute against Kennen and some other matchups (mostly ranged).

Also jayce and Kennen are the only two ranged toplaners who consistently give riven trouble. She can build tabis against Quinn and basically ignore harrass and shove and roam. And hexdrinker completely nullifies Teemo.

I disagee with your assessment of the matchups. Hex vs Teemo is pretty good but it comes at a high cost, especially when he has a somewhat tanky team that you can't build lethality into.

And no. Riven's Is not the epitome of unbalance. However there is a reason picking tanks is trolling ATM. They are completely useless all game long. They get beaten up early in lane due to shit tons of nerfs. They lose mid and late due to conqueror (where they already lost due to sustain and armor pen) (except orn, that guy was broken as shit in preseason)

I strongly disagree, tanks are pretty good in toplane soloQ. The reason why tanks have such a terrible winrate toplane is that most toplane mains do not play them as they have a boring playstyle so they are generally picked by autofilled players. When you look at their winrate/games played you will see that they usually peak 55% just like Riven - see Ornn, Poppy, Cho'Gath (actually 56%), Malphite (56% aswell).

When you consider the actual stats you have to realize that tanks are very much viable in the current meta - the only difference is that carry champions are now actually good top which hasn't been the case in a very long time aside from specific champions so naturally the fun champions are played much more than tanks that simply push the lane without meaningfully interacting.

Without conqueror we are still at a place where tanks maybe are strong. Which would actually force crit adc's back into the game to deal with them. Altho they would STILL lose the splitpush post 15 minutes. And would rely on teamfighting.

Tanks should not be viable top, sadly they still are. Reintroducing tanks would simply kill toplane which has just started participating like the other lanes. You are severely underestimating the current strength of toplane tanks.

And as for riven's matchups. How hard she struggles in them is directly correlated to her skill. Chogath is an easy matchup. You simply don't fight him and outscale. He teamfights like garbage. All of his skills are hugely telegraphed behind extremely long cast times and the only thing he is good for is taking up space and flash ulting the adc. However riven can snowball the game way harder then chogath can. Unless she feeds him. Ya there are some matchups she struggles with. However Ren is probably the hardest ATM. But if you take Aftershock instead of conqueror it's extremely easy not to die. Which is the most important.

Yeah, getting outpressured all early/midgame sounds like an easy matchup because early/midgame doesn't matter, right?

I think you feel riven is worse then she is because your taking conqueror all the damn time instead of proper runes.

Glancing over your op.gg tells me that you are best advised not to make this about my gameplay. FYI I don't think that Riven is weak at all - Riven is good right now -- due to Conqueror!

Automated RivenJul 10, 20181 votes

Oh really? What useful information did you find on my op.gg? Last year's ranked stats? Trolling around with riven botlane? How about Mundo with conqueror? Are all of these what you consider important?

Your a plat (acourding to op.gg) and that's who keeps showing up in my games. So idk what your on about.

Why do you feel that tanks shouldn't be viable toplane? They always have been. They just shouldn't be balanced around doing extreme damage. They should be balanced around surviving. I think relegating them to jungle and support would be a very poor balance decision.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 10, 20181 votes

Way to ignore everything constructive I've said - - I am not interested in arguing about neither my nor your gameplay.

Why do you feel that tanks shouldn't be viable toplane?

Because their gameplay is simply pushing while interacting as little as possible with their lane opponent -- Tanks are absolutely valuable to the game, however in toplane they have a terrible track record when it comes to game health. Champions like Maokai, Gragas, Sion, Nautilus etc. are all great champions - but whenever they are played top all they do is shove the wave while trying not to interact with their opponent.

There are some good tanks that deserve to be played top as they have (relatively) interesting trading patterns - such as Shen and Ornn, but they are definitely the minority.

Also this:

I strongly disagree, tanks are pretty good in toplane soloQ. The reason why tanks have such a terrible winrate toplane is that most toplane mains do not play them as they have a boring playstyle so they are generally picked by autofilled players. When you look at their winrate/games played you will see that they usually peak 55% just like Riven - see Ornn, Poppy, Cho'Gath (actually 56%), Malphite (56% aswell).

When you consider the actual stats you have to realize that tanks are very much viable in the current meta - the only difference is that carry champions are now actually good top which hasn't been the case in a very long time aside from specific champions so naturally the fun champions are played much more than tanks that simply push the lane without meaningfully interacting.

Automated RivenJul 10, 20181 votes

I won't argue on the trading patterns. There is definitely work that could be done there. Neither am I a fan specifically of getting cc locked during a gank while the jungler kills me. However, these are problems which could be fixed. Wave clear could be reduced on champions like soon, malphite, and maokai and shields and healing could be tied behind interaction with the opposing laner forcing you to trade rather then gain passive Regen/shields.

My biggest issue with the game really has nothing to do with this discussion. I do however maintain that riven (considering how she fairs in most bruiser matchups and considering her scaling) should have matchups where she struggles. She teamfights extremely better then other bruisers because of the sheer aoe damage she can do. While going even-beating them in lane. And only falling off post 2 items to most of them in the 1v1. And even then she has the tools to dictate the terms of engagement more often then not.

That being said, if you want to play something strong against riven, you should have the option to grab a tank and be unkillable in lane. (IMHO riven should struggle with kill pressure on tanks, she shouldn't (nor should most toplaners) be worried about dying without jungle influence in a tank matchup) but that tank should be able to match her fairly effectively in a teamfight. However bringing cc and beef rather then damage.

If you want to splitpush against tank you should be grabbing Camille or Fiora and doing that. Not every champion should have the same path to victory as all of the other ones. Conqueror makes it so that every bruiser shits on tanks bar non past an item or two. That is not good balance.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xwo2H8EL,comment-id=00030000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-10T22:42:01.696+0000)

I won't argue on the trading patterns. There is definitely work that could be done there. Neither am I a fan specifically of getting cc locked during a gank while the jungler kills me. However, these are problems which could be fixed. Wave clear could be reduced on champions like soon, malphite, and maokai and shields and healing could be tied behind interaction with the opposing laner forcing you to trade rather then gain passive Regen/shields.

The majority of tanks that are played toplane have these trading patterns so you'd have to have a class update to fit them to toplane -- and Riot has said that they won't do class updates any more. This means that in the meantime tanks should not be viable aside from a few exceptions - which is already the case. Quite frankly, there are way too many tanks viable (go ahead and check their winrate/games played statistics in diamond if you do not believe me).

My biggest issue with the game really has nothing to do with this discussion. I do however maintain that riven (considering how she fairs in most bruiser matchups and considering her scaling) should have matchups where she struggles. She teamfights extremely better then other bruisers because of the sheer aoe damage she can do. While going even-beating them in lane. And only falling off post 2 items to most of them in the 1v1. And even then she has the tools to dictate the terms of engagement more often then not.

You confuse me to no end. You said:

Champions which dont struggle against anyone are literally the epitome of inbalanced

So I asked

Do you seriously believe that Riven right now is 'the epitome of inbalanced'?

And you answered

And no. Riven's Is not the epitome of unbalance.

And now you again imply that Riven doesn't struggle in any matchup. So what is it? Whenever I try to argue against it you take it back only to reiterate the same point.

That being said, if you want to play something strong against riven, you should have the option to grab a tank and be unkillable in lane. (IMHO riven should struggle with kill pressure on tanks, she shouldn't (nor should most toplaners) be worried about dying without jungle influence in a tank matchup)

Unkillable in lane + better scaling in most teamcomps = good matchup with little skill required. I do not think an entire class that is as flawed in toplane should just have a good matchup against Riven. But if you seriously want to maintain that position: what class should struggle against Riven? I can guarantee you that there is no entire champion class that struggles against Riven.

that tank should be able to match her fairly effectively in a teamfight. However bringing cc and beef rather then damage.

Then tanks need to get their utility/teamfights nerfed because they are strictly better than Riven at that (assuming average teamcomps of course).

If you want to splitpush against tank you should be grabbing Camille or Fiora and doing that. Not every champion should have the same path to victory as all of the other ones. Conqueror makes it so that every bruiser shits on tanks bar non past an item or two. That is not good balance.

I'd really like you to adress my point with tanks having a good winrate/games played. It seems that our base assumptions differ too greatly for this discussion to continue without you adressing that tanks seem statistically strong.

Automated RivenJul 11, 20181 votes

Ok. Riven does ~~struggle~~ against tanks currently. However she scales a bit too hard against them in the side lane IMHO. This is entirely due to conqueror. Her hardest matchups are ones where she cannot kill them. And if they are able to kill her (like Darius with a lead) then she gets repeatedly dove with little to no counterplay. However, in the reverse she does the same, so it seems a wash in that aspect.

Take Cho vs riven. It's a ~~hard~~ matchup in the sense that if you simply try to take 1v1 you basically die, but the matchup is ~~easy~~ on the macro sense because Cho is not gonna be running down your towers like a mad man and has a ton less mobility. So she simply out manuevers him on the map.

Riven also can struggle against any different champion at a specific point in the game. For ranged champions she gets poked to hell and back pre six. And she can even get wrecked after if they play her level six powerspike correctly. However she will eventually outscale those champions very hard. But with champions like Jax/irelia/Darius/Fiora she has the edge in the early game but has an extremely dificult time after they get two items unless she is very far ahead. Basically when they can survive her burst and DPS her down she can't really go toe to toe anymore.

Tanks IMHO are decent in solo que assuming that the team with them can play around them. I personally think they should have their damage nerfed and their tankieness and utility buffed. Tanks should bring the best cc by far, while lacking also by far, damage. And they should have less bianary kits so they are more rewarding to master rather then simply having a extremely low skill floor comparatively.

I did however look up on lolanylitics and the tanks in toplane who are performing decently ~~50%~~ have an extremely low playrate. 3% at the highest with most of them barely cresting 50%. That tells me that either they are secretly really strong and are only used by autofilled toplaners. Or that they are rather weak and the mains are struggling to hit 50% averages. It's hard to say for sure which. My personal experience as both playing tanks and playing against them is that they feel really weak.

But I feel like riven should be picked to do well into fighter vs fighter matchups. And her win conditions should be to get an edge and translate that into strong teamfighting, rather then picking her into anything and being able to either teamfight or split. Champions IMHO should have distinct niches which they fill. And distinct power curves as well.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xwo2H8EL,comment-id=0003000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T20:22:29.843+0000)

Ok. Riven does ~~struggle~~ against tanks currently. However she scales a bit too hard against them in the side lane IMHO. This is entirely due to conqueror. Her hardest matchups are ones where she cannot kill them. And if they are able to kill her (like Darius with a lead) then she gets repeatedly dove with little to no counterplay. However, in the reverse she does the same, so it seems a wash in that aspect.

Take Cho vs riven. It's a ~~hard~~ matchup in the sense that if you simply try to take 1v1 you basically die, but the matchup is ~~easy~~ on the macro sense because Cho is not gonna be running down your towers like a mad man and has a ton less mobility. So she simply out manuevers him on the map.

Riven also can struggle against any different champion at a specific point in the game. For ranged champions she gets poked to hell and back pre six. And she can even get wrecked after if they play her level six powerspike correctly. However she will eventually outscale those champions very hard. But with champions like Jax/irelia/Darius/Fiora she has the edge in the early game but has an extremely dificult time after they get two items unless she is very far ahead. Basically when they can survive her burst and DPS her down she can't really go toe to toe anymore.

I might argue some minor things but I'd agree overall -- so why does that seem bad to you? Riven has few matchups that she outright gets dominated early to late, however most matchups have ups and downs which overall balances her rather well. So if you took away her strengths against tanks (outscaling them hard in the sidelane) then you'd have to buff her elsewhere - ESPECIALLY as it's pretty safe that Riot is going to decrease the game length which would make Conqueror nerfs even more impactful. And quite frankly Riven seems super well balanced right now so touching anything about her would be quite unpleasant.

Tanks IMHO are decent in solo que assuming that the team with them can play around them. I personally think they should have their damage nerfed and their tankieness and utility buffed. Tanks should bring the best cc by far, while lacking also by far, damage. And they should have less bianary kits so they are more rewarding to master rather then simply having a extremely low skill floor comparatively.

I think most tanks should straight up be terrible top until they get a GU/VGU. How to update them exactly remains to be seen.

I did however look up on lolanylitics and the tanks in toplane who are performing decently ~~50%~~ have an extremely low playrate. 3% at the highest with most of them barely cresting 50%. That tells me that either they are secretly really strong and are only used by autofilled toplaners. Or that they are rather weak and the mains are struggling to hit 50% averages. It's hard to say for sure which. My personal experience as both playing tanks and playing against them is that they feel really weak.

There is no tank that I am aware of where the mains do struggle to hit a 50% average. All have a 54-56% winrate for mains which is very decent given that Riven mains have a 55.x% winrate. The reason why tanks are perceived to be weak is that they cannot solocarry the way eg Riven can - however they can not sololose like Riven sometimes does either.

But I feel like riven should be picked to do well into fighter vs fighter matchups. And her win conditions should be to get an edge and translate that into strong teamfighting, rather then picking her into anything and being able to either teamfight or split. Champions IMHO should have distinct niches which they fill. And distinct power curves as well.

I disagree, I think hard-counters is an outdated concept that is too frustrating - differing powerspikes makes matchups exciting as both sides have win conditions they can play to rather than simply getting shrekt early and knowing that it won't get any better over the course of the game.

Automated RivenJul 11, 20181 votes

Ok this is where we probably disagree. And I think the reason we disagree may be because we come from different stances of the game.

I am making my argument on what I consider to be 'good balance' whereas your making your based on the state of the game now.

So to get it out of the way, I want the games to be longer so that late game actually exists and is a part of the game. The game was designed around being a 35-45 minute game and trying to shorten that without a full redesign from the ground up will inevitably result in bad balance. So my arguments about riven and any other aspect of balance is with that thinking in my mind. With that said, from a standpoint of long games I think conqueror is bad for riven, and the game in general, because tanks lose too hard late game (actual late game of 5-6 items) with it. Because they already lost without it.

I will accept your assessment on tanks Is accurate as I frankly don't know. I don't have much more time to reply here but I don't want to point this out quick.

When I said riven should do well into fighters I did not mean that she should counter them. Just that the matchup in a 1v1 before 2 items on even gold favored riven. Which puts pressure on her to get a lead and use that to impact teamfights where she is better then her lane opponent by nature of her kit.

Her opponent has the counterplay to this by farming up and outscaling. (in a 1v1) and putting cross map pressure. And avoiding bad teamfights which riven is looking for. There should always be counterplay. But it should start at a micro sense. And end in a macro sense. They should both be two sides of the same coin.