Honestly the biggest buff to bruisers compared to whats on PBE

Tychusfindlay918·Dec 8, 2017·104 votes·10,863 views

Would be actually toning down ADC damage.

all zeal items cost increase by 300

-5 AD -5 AD -5 AD rapidfire and shiv no longer interact with each other

That's a start

141 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarDec 8, 201763 votes

I know those probably feel like small nerfs to you, but hitting all those items at once would almost certainly dumpster the marksman class.

This game gets a lot of shit for being way out of whack, but people ignore it when a -3 base AD nerf actually works and brings a champ back into line. These numbers are closer to truly balanced than you think, and that's a big part of the reason that Riot is cautious when making changes to them.

ChargeItDownMidDec 8, 201715 votes

[deleted]

ModKnightsKemplarDec 8, 201726 votes

Again, given the success of small numbers tweaks like that in the past, I highly doubt it. It truly isn't that hard to push champions out of viability with changes like this, so I don't see why it would be any different for nerfs targeted to a particular class.

ChargeItDownMidDec 8, 201712 votes

[deleted]

RiotRiot MapleNectarDec 8, 201792 votes

-3 ad on Vayne on patch 5.20 was a much memed about change IRT how useless it was. That change resulted in 2.5% drop in winrate (if that's the metric we'd choose here), and curbed a fair amount of the outcry against her at the time.

Taking 5-15 damage away from a full build is actually a lot more impactful than you might think, especially on a class of champions that relies on their auto attacks (primarily) for damage. This tactic coupled with the gold increase would be effective - but it would also likely leave only a few marksman as considered viable (Ezreal, MF, Varus, Kog etc).

The Yetii RiderDec 8, 20177 votes

Uh, Maple? I don't know that this is an argument path you want to take. There was a change to another champion that was seemingly minor (I think it was Vladimir, might have been Veigar) a while back that wasn't actually shipped to live, but was announced. And then his win rate dropped. Nothing changed but the players' perception, and the expectation that the champion was going to be nerfed in some way affected people's performance with him.

That said, the fact that Vayne was nerfed at all is likely in some way related to her drop in win rate, the power hit of the nerf itself isn't entirely to blame.

The Blue RajahDec 8, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-08T17:31:43.373+0000)

Uh, Maple? I don't know that this is an argument path you want to take. There was a change to another champion that was seemingly minor (I think it was Vladimir, might have been Veigar) a while back that wasn't actually shipped to live, but was announced. And then his win rate dropped. Nothing changed but the players' perception, and the expectation that the champion was going to be nerfed in some way affected people's performance with him.

That said, the fact that Vayne was nerfed at all is likely in some way related to her drop in win rate, the power hit of the nerf itself isn't entirely to blame.

Except you would expect the opposite for that -3 Ad nerf to vayne. The popular consensus was that the nerf wouldn’t have any effect at all, unlike the Vladimir nerf, in which everyone thought it would dumpster him.

That’s not to discount psychological effects, but this is not a great case to guess about. Because discounting the effect of the nerf would be guessing. The Vladimir case was different, for all we know could be an anomaly. There’s been no study. All we actually know for sure is that she had a -3ad nerf and it brought her in line without needing followup. (The later times of her being out of line were brought about by a different set of changes).

FireDrizzleDec 8, 20176 votes

"Taking 5-15 damage away from a full build is actually a lot more impactful than you might think, especially on a class of champions that relies on their auto attacks (primarily) for damage." But earlier this year you(riot) made IE and ER 400g cheaper altogether and you can get 10 ad for 350g. Adcs could easily stand that nerf to ad items.

ProfDrDeathDec 8, 20175 votes

That's certain true, and is a case I quite remember laughing about the Board's and reddit's analysts prediction after the fact.

However, a valid point OP makes is the fact that the Zeal items are quite (a bit too, imo) cheap since the changes with the Tank Update in midseason. In fact, IE + 2 Zeal items is the cheapest 3-item core combo of all damage dealing classes. This could heavily contribute to the feeling of snowballiness and the game slipping out of control if bot lane screws up.

Shadow HazardDec 8, 201734 votes

I don't agree with taking out the damage but, increasing the zeal upgrades by 200 across the board (with the appropriate compensating stat buffs of course) would be a massive change, and overall game health improvement in my opinion. This is supposed to be the class with the highest income, yet comes with the cheapest overall multi-item cost.

FireDrizzleDec 8, 20175 votes

Reducing the power of adc items would be ideal rather than increasing the costs, full build adcs are insane. Not that you get them very often. Most of my game atm are ending 20-25 minutes and many of them should be 15 min ffs but there is always 1 guy...

Shadow HazardDec 8, 201713 votes

You realize that like i said already in the post you responded to. Not only are ADC's the highest gold income class, but have the cheapest item cost overall. making your statement factually wrong.

FireDrizzleDec 8, 20173 votes

Wether an item is too cheap depends on its power.

Shadow HazardDec 8, 20177 votes

not really, Trinity force is very strong but still recognized to be really fucking expensive. similar thing with both hydra items (ravenous is about 101% gold efficient without the cleave/crescent effects). The 2 energized items are ironically not nearly as gold efficient, yet have such a massive spike as a second item.

Items can just simply have an unfair cost.

Which ADC items do. if we want to go the route of nerfing stats, you actually cant nerf the stats any further for most of them so the passives will have to receive a sweeping nerf. does that sound like it would really help game health holistically. (the answer is no)

AirKingNeoDec 8, 20173 votes

increasing the zeal upgrades by 200 across the board

What does that do? You literally nerfed every marksmen despite a majority of them being issues. Twitch, Tristana, Xayah, MF still outclass everyone. You just made Varus and Ashe mostly unplayable.

Fisher No ChainsDec 8, 20173 votes

Read the whole thing, he said that 200 more gold equals more stats for them.

It just delays their power spike, since right now it happens way too early.

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20176 votes

{quoted}

What does that do? You literally nerfed every marksmen despite a majority of them being issues. Twitch, Tristana, Xayah, MF still outclass everyone. You just made Varus and Ashe mostly unplayable.

thats exactly the goal.

if you nerf Twitch, Tristana, Xayah and MF, then varus and ashe are still too strong in relation to other champions.

there is a video going around of a varus just facetanking a renekton who has 2 levels on him and is equal in gold, and varus just straight up melee auto attacked him to death.

ALL marksmen are overtuned. while ashe and varus arent relevant compared to twitch and mf, theyre still way too strong compared to other carry archetypes.

AirKingNeoDec 9, 20172 votes

Except Ashe and Varus aren't overtunned compared to other non-marksmen. I don't know why you think they are, despite all things pointing opposite, but I think that maybe champions who are perfectly fine don't need nerfs.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Except Ashe and Varus aren't overtunned compared to other non-marksmen. I don't know why you think they are, despite all things pointing opposite, but I think that maybe champions who are perfectly fine don't need nerfs.

oh really?

{quoted}

Just an FYI Renekton and Varus were even on gold

https://youtu.be/m_3ghMTFnR4

there is absolutely no excuse someone could make for this ever to be acceptable.

AirKingNeoDec 9, 20172 votes

Renekton, once he got out of the Varus ult snare, autoed Varus, then stood around for a 1 second doing nothing, then autoed him, and then stood around for a second doing nothing, and died.

DurzakaDec 9, 20177 votes

Renekton had no abilities left by the time he even got to Varus. So no shit Varus is going to win.

EVEN against just Renekton AA + Hydra active, Varus had to use his heal.

If Renekton didnt have to use his double dash and get his stun completely negated by Varus ult, he would have DESTROYED Varus.

Renekton got greedy and took a fight he had no business taking.

SpecterVonBarenDec 9, 20175 votes

No information about builds
He sat in the middle of a double minion wave
Renekton used his dash to get to Varus.

Illâoi Evê SiônDec 8, 20172 votes

Maybe just a small price increase on the Zeal items instead then? Marksmen should deal damage, but it seems like they get access to that damage too quickly.

Teridax68Dec 8, 20172 votes

If the issue with such a nerf is that it would cause specific marksmen to shoot up in power, would it not help to also tone down on-hit effects specific to marksmen? The problem with MF in particular is that she currently gets to abuse Lethality items, an ongoing problem with a few marksmen, whereas Ezreal and Varus both go for Manamune, an item that likely needs an update anyway.

warpenguin555Dec 8, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-08T17:22:54.687+0000)

-3 ad on Vayne on patch 5.20 was a much memed about change IRT how useless it was. That change resulted in 2.5% drop in winrate (if that's the metric we'd choose here), and curbed a fair amount of the outcry against her at the time.

I remember that! Good times

GelsominoKillerDec 8, 20174 votes

Vayne AD nerf fucked up people's CSing more than anything. The winrate drop was quickly reabsorbed as people started to get accustomed to the lower AD.

OMGSoAnnoyingDec 8, 20174 votes

I'm fine with the damage items being where they are for the cost they are. However, total cost of the 3-item power spike for most marksmen right now is simply too low. My thought is that the finished Zeal items should be around 2800-2900 instead of the current 2600 they are, simply because they synergize so well with each other and the other items in the builds of those who use them.

IE + Shiv + RFC = 8400. At that point, most ADCs simply rip apart anyone -- unless you're a tank that rushed two or more armor items to match it... at which point the enemy mid laner just finishes you off because you don't have enough MR. Add just about any life steal item fourth, and now they drain tank anyone who cannot burst them down within the time frame of a stun or some other hard cc.

They hit the damage fantasy so fast now that the perception has become whichever bot lane gets there first wins the game. And that's fairly accurate for about 70% of games. Your ADC gets there, you group and just roll towers. The enemy team cannot stop you so long as your team comp provides two seconds of peel.

Are you behind in mid lane and your bot lane just lost? Welcome to being 3v1 in mid while your bot lane tries to catch up, or being 3v3 and fighting with your bot lane for farm.

I've lost count of the games lately where I've been top or mid, done well, and it simply doesn't matter by 20 minutes or sooner because their ADC got fed. Even as a full tank, you die in under five seconds unless you have a dodge or damage reduction mechanic. Counter-play is mentioned, but the marksman right now seemingly has none besides 'stay out of range' -- and for some that's down right impossible (looking at you, Ezreal, Vayne and Tristana). It's making the game not fun to play, and that's a problem.

It also makes the upcoming season for Ranked play make me not wish to participate unless I'm in Flex with a five-man team. Solo Queue right now feels like "pray I got a good ADC and someone who didn't auto fill into support this time" versus "I have enough skill that I might be able to win if I can help another lane from Top/Mid." Hell, that might be why I'm several ranks higher in Flex.

Anyway, got into a ramble and a bit of a rant. My apologies for that, but it had to be said. Thank you for all you do.

ModKnightsKemplarDec 8, 20172 votes

Vayne was actually the exact champion I had in mind with my original comment. Thanks for bringing in the actual numbers to back that up :P

Yorick could be another decent example, provided those nerfs are effective. I haven't been paying attention to stats very carefully for this patch yet.

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Vayne was actually the exact champion I had in mind with my original comment. Thanks for bringing in the actual numbers to back that up :P

vayne is a poor example. because it only considers balance of a marksman vs. other marksmen. not marksman balance vs. the whole champion pool.

why do you think a 3 ad nerf impacted her? because it was an early game nerf that caused her to get beaten by other marksmen in lane, makes her more likely to fall behind over the enemy marksman and doesnt scale vs. them before the enemy marksman ends the game.

this example doesnt take into consideration at all how a vayne fares against other champion types in the game on equal gold. that 3 ad nerf didnt impact her in a fight against a bruiser or mage with the same amount of gold as her. it only impacted her early laning and hence nerfed her in relation to other marksmen.

lets say marksmen were literally 3 times as strong as any other type of champion in the game. then there would still be marksmen with negative winrates, because they get beaten by other marksmen. their winrate would be no indication if theyre even in a healthy state compared to the game as whole.

BoulderoxDec 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020000000000000000000e0000,timestamp=2017-12-08T22:02:38.145+0000)

this example doesnt take into consideration at all how a vayne fares against other carry types on equal gold.

Isn't the main recommendation for a vayne is to go at least equal in early game and you roll over them late game because of how much harder she scales late game?

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Isn't the main recommendation for a vayne is to go at least equal in early game and you roll over them late game because of how much harder she scales late game?

thats besides the point. the same goes for some other carries like veigar or nasus.

lets say we make every top lane bruiser 5 times stronger than they are. do you think that would put bruisers in a healthy spot, just because nasus still gets beaten by other bruisers? does it put nasus in a healthy spot when he does manage to scale? because hes still 5 times stronger than now.

or we can nerf darius base ad by 5 so other bruisers can beat him early in lane. the class as a whole would still be way too powerful and have too much game impact in that scenario.

the reason WHY the 3 ad nerf impacted vayne was because it was a nerf to a marksman vs. other marksmen in lane.

what were asking for is to tune down all marksmen in relation to every other archetype of champion. because bot lane snowballs way too fast, and adc in general get too much worth out of their items that are way too cheap.

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-08T17:22:54.687+0000)

-3 ad on Vayne on patch 5.20 was a much memed about change IRT how useless it was. That change resulted in 2.5% drop in winrate (if that's the metric we'd choose here), and curbed a fair amount of the outcry against her at the time.

Taking 5-15 damage away from a full build is actually a lot more impactful than you might think, especially on a class of champions that relies on their auto attacks (primarily) for damage. This tactic coupled with the gold increase would be effective - but it would also likely leave only a few marksman as considered viable (Ezreal, MF, Varus, Kog etc).

maybe some marksmen would become significantly weaker in relation to each other. not in relation to the champion pool as a whole.

the biggest problem this game has right now is honestly the snowball that comes out of bot lane. there is no reason for marksmen as the hardest scaling carry class to be able to power spike sooner off the same gold than anyone else. THATS how overpowered their items are. a lot of marksmen are rushing double zeal and i.e. builds that are 500 to 1000 gold cheaper than most other classes 3 item builds, while theyre synergizing so well with each other that theyre also outscaling these other classes items. they should be more expensive for the fact that theyre outscaling bruiser, assassin, and mage items.

realistically they either need exactly a stat decrease paired with a minor cost increase to get them on par with the scaling and item cost of other champions, or they need a massive cost increase to justify their slot effectiveness.

support items need a slight cost increase aswell for how effective they are, though i guess theyre getting slight nerfs on the pbe instead.

Tik115Dec 9, 20172 votes

How about removing the abundance of safety carries have instead? like the Zeal items given move speed (The move speed is NOT a Unique so it stacks for no reason) how about making Phantom less effective?

Its undeniable that carries are out of control right now, the old late game hypercarries like Vayne and Kog get out of their weak phase after buying their first major item which ironically leaves only a few marksmen considered viable because why pick an early game carry when the late game ones switch on at 4000 gold? not to mention the abuse of Duskblade on them, free 300+ damage with no ability to retaliate.

ADCs need to be address because we're a few buffs and nerfs from the meta being 4 ADCs and a support

NiyumeDec 9, 20173 votes

So nerf all the ADCs. You had to make an entire new stat in season 2 just because of how broken they were, and then you removed said stat and continually buffed ADCs. Now they may as well be gods, and any other class can't even hope to compete with them in any aspect. They have better sustain than drain tanks, they have better damage mitigation than tanks, they have better burst than assassins and burst mages... all on top of being the highest sustained damage in the game.

They are not okay as a class right now, they go against many of the design principles you preach, and they all need to get nerfed. And it's not just ADCs either, it's all champs that abuse attack speed and rely mostly on autos for damage.

Oh and that Vayne nerf is still a joke.

DeathDefiedDec 9, 20172 votes

How can you possibly isolate the change in 3 ad to the change in winrate? Is that the ONLY change you made to the game in that patch? I doubt it? If not then there is no way you can say that the change in AD CAUSED the drop in winrate. Maybe you buffed a mage that hard counters vayne that patch, maybe you nerfed a support that has synergy with her.

D you know what an independent variable is?

HR5OdeMImEDec 9, 20172 votes

To be fair, a -3 or -5 AD is huge because it changes everything right from level 1.

A -5 AD with a completed item on the other hand, wouldnt impact as much because the lane could be decided even before that.

Weiss GuertenaDec 10, 20171 votes

Maybe not a damage decrease, but ADC's need item cost increase around the board. They are supposed to be the "late game carry class", but both their 3-item core (IE, Zeal item, lifesteal/penetration item) AND full build are the cheapest in the game right after supports (whose items have to be cheaper due to lower income). Mages, assassins, fighters, tanks - all need more gold to complete their cores and full builds. This shit is why we have a terrible meta of ADC+their 4 bitches where whichever botlane gets a lead is most likely to win, no matter the rest of teans,

KekOfTheFinestDec 8, 20175 votes

Rapidfire=2600g Stattik shiv=2600g Infinity edge=3400g

8600 gold. ADC 3 item spike. Trinity=3733g Steraks=3200g Titanic=3500g

10433 gold. A newer bruiser build being built for top lane. Which one was the late game scaling again? 300 gold on zeal items, and another 200 on ie would be fair, no?

DragonSheaDec 8, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Rapidfire=2600g Stattik shiv=2600g Infinity edge=3400g

8600 gold. ADC 3 item spike. Trinity=3733g Steraks=3200g Titanic=3500g

10433 gold. A newer bruiser build being built for top lane. Which one was the late game scaling again? 300 gold on zeal items, and another 200 on ie would be fair, no?

yeah when ADC's get their late game at 2 items then stands to reason they they need a raise in cost.

TFBaamDec 9, 20172 votes

Who builds Trinity Steraks Titanic as their first 3 items? Gangplank ?

Sun Wu RyuumokuDec 8, 20177 votes

I know those probably feel like small nerfs to you, but hitting all those items at once would almost certainly dumpster the marksman class.

i have no issue with this !!

U (adc players) had ur play times, now its over !!! [darius-angry]

These numbers are closer to truly balanced than you think, and that's a big part of the reason that Riot is cautious when making changes to them.

This isn't true... mainly with marksmen build cost.

General Esdeath Dec 8, 20172 votes

I've been playing a ton of Vayne lately and I think the only thing that would hit her hard is damage nerfs. -5 AD on IE and making me farm more for my shiv would make my power spike come later on, which is a change we need.

SasogwaDec 8, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I know those probably feel like small nerfs to you, but hitting all those items at once would almost certainly dumpster the marksman class.

This game gets a lot of shit for being way out of whack, but people ignore it when a -3 base AD nerf actually works and brings a champ back into line. These numbers are closer to truly balanced than you think, and that's a big part of the reason that Riot is cautious when making changes to them.

Would it really nerf to unplayability the one class that survived every metagame? I very much doubt so.

EedatDec 8, 201718 votes

all zeal items cost increase by 300

Thats really about it. Adding all the other stuff is drastically over doing it

PaffWasTakenDec 8, 201711 votes

Like someone already shared the idea here on the boards, item 3087 and item 3094 shouldn't be availlable to be built together, in a similar fashion to item 3748 and item 3074

SlythionDec 8, 20178 votes

1st thing they need to address is their item costs. The best-scaling and highest gold-income class shouldn't also have the cheapest items or cheapest full-builds. It simply doesn't make sense.

Only once that's addressed and we see how it effects gameplay we should consider stat adjustments on items, but those 2 changes should not be implemented at the same time.

Zed geniusDec 8, 20175 votes

Yasuo item 3070 ?

Need Gold 4 TentDec 8, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1o9IxRAL,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-08T16:10:06.805+0000)

?

good. and gut him further while you're at it.

Lil Homie bustaDec 8, 20178 votes

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/good-good-let-the-butthurt-flow-through-you.jpg

"I got butthurt from playing against Yasuo" syndrome

JVP15Dec 8, 20173 votes

This would dumpster champions like Sivir and Jinx (you know, the healthy ones who really never step out of line) while not really hurting champs like Ezreal or Lucian who would just build something else and dominate. There are other, better ways of doing this.