"Removing the unstoppable on ornn is one of the WORST things you can do" - Scarra

Tychusfindlay918··175 votes·9,591 views

Once again, wise man scarra says something wise.

Look, as a top laner, I fucking hate ornn. But removing skill expression is one of the worst things you can do. Riot could have simplytoned down his damage or increase mana costs further.

Something like another 2% max hp damage decrease at all ranks on W along with the R nerf would fix ornn. Instead, riot killed one of the things that allowed good ornns to be distinguished from bad ornns.

Well done riot, that champion is fucked.

179 Comments

Simpumba63 votes

I'll probably be down voted into oblivion, but am I the only one not understanding the big deal? Everyone's using the argument "His w lets you tell from the bad and good" but you're quite literally just pressing his W when you're about to get stunned or in a sticky situation, some people are acting like that this play alone is equivalent to a lee sin getting a 5 man ult.

I don't want to bash, but could someone explain it more to me?

Tychusfindlay91867 votes

{quoted}

I'll probably be down voted into oblivion, but am I the only one not understanding the big deal? Everyone's using the argument "His w lets you tell from the bad and good" but you're quite literally just pressing his W when you're about to get stunned or in a sticky situation, some people are acting like that this play alone is equivalent to a lee sin getting a 5 man ult.

I don't want to bash, but could someone explain it more to me?

Over-simplification and downplaying is at work here.

Every little thing counts.

It'd be like removing lee sin's ability to W to a ward.

"well how is that removing skill, where is the skill in point and clicking on a ward to go to it?"

It doesn't matter HOW MUCH skill expression you think is being lost, the reality is that skill expression is being lost.

What stopped riot from simply removing some of his retarded damage instead while keeping skill expression intact?

ZapMyHeart7 votes

{quoted}

What stopped riot from simply removing some of his retarded damage instead while keeping skill expression intact?

Because Rito wants to be innovative and be the first to do the unexpected. By going off tangent and throwing things off completely lopsided when a simple fix that is super straightforward would do. But not Riot. Because thinking outside of the box and other lame excuses they throw at us.

Daddy Tie Me Up8 votes

Oh poor you, they take away ability that distinguished 90 IQ player from 92 IQ player. Orns unstoppable force should not have been there in first place idk what you are so sad about. His kit is too simple to make it look like he had something going for him. I have seen dozen Orns and I havent yet said. Oh my that was really well played. Because he is spamming W, of course he is gona "play it well" once in a while.

Besteal20 votes

Every champ needs a safe skill. And now, Ornn doesn't have one. Like Maokai's Q, or other tanks with their skills that they need to have to do what they need to do.

Moonfall Saber2 votes

"Everyone champion has a safe skill" darius, illaoi don't. Also it still gives him a shield

Besteal26 votes

Really? So Darius having a massive heal on his Q, and Illaoi having the same isn't a safe skill? The shield on Ornn's w doesn't heal him. And if that was the problem, then tone down the shield instead of getting rid of unstoppability. I'm not disagreeing that Ornn w is oppressive. I'm just saying they went about the wrong way changing it.

Reformedfindlay1 votes

{quoted}

Really? So Darius having a massive heal on his Q, and Illaoi having the same isn't a safe skill? The shield on Ornn's w doesn't heal him. And if that was the problem, then tone down the shield instead of getting rid of unstoppability. I'm not disagreeing that Ornn w is oppressive. I'm just saying they went about the wrong way changing it.

Darius q is NOT safe. It is his hardest to land ability.

Darius safe ability is probably w.

BoilTheOil7 votes

Darius isn't a tank when will people understand this

VardenSalad2 votes

Tell that to people in my ARAM games wondering why I didn't go tank on Illaoi.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

If Ornn's shield is always activated while he merely presses W, it doesn't have to be a heal to be effective. It means that Ornn can always effectively block a certain amount of punishment, no matter the circumstance, which is way too safe to me.

Darius at least has to keep you on his axe's outer range to heal himself while if you get hit by the hilt, he doesn't get a heal. Which actually means Darius has to maintain distance to have effective sustain and Ornn doesn't. I've seen many situations where Ornns simply "bait" the enemy into attacking them, only to cheese that W shield and suddenly whack you in the head with their Brittle effect and win a losing trade, which sounds BS to me as that (on top of his high damage) is a free laning phase.

PB4UAME3 votes

"A tank has a reliable defensive ability, and this-- despite tanks being almost entirely oriented around the concept of defense-- is clearly too much imo" -A paraphrase.

Plenty of other champions have on demand shields. In fact, almost all champions that have shields are either instant on themselves, activate instantly once in a certain proximity to x target/after hitting x type of target, or are point and click. Why is it suddenly too much for a tank (Sion) to (Shen) have (Nautilus) an (Taric) instant (TahmKench) shield?

doubleguac4 votes

Tell that to Sion lol.

Seriously, though, I don't think Ornn needs unstoppable force, but I am surprised that this is the way they decided to nerf him.

The problem is that his W gives him a large shield plus a crapload of %health damage on a short cooldown, which makes him extremely hard for melees to trade with. Even if you CC Ornn, he's not going to stop breathing fire.

This will make him maybe slightly less oppressive to lane against, but I would have rather see them move the shield onto his E, or just reduce the % health damage on his W.

Hópe36 votes

{quoted}

I'll probably be down voted into oblivion, but am I the only one not understanding the big deal? Everyone's using the argument "His w lets you tell from the bad and good" but you're quite literally just pressing his W when you're about to get stunned or in a sticky situation, some people are acting like that this play alone is equivalent to a lee sin getting a 5 man ult.

I don't want to bash, but could someone explain it more to me?

The problem with Ornn is he does too much fucking damage and his cds are too low yet they nerf the thing that nobody gives a shit about.

USG Failsawce12 votes

{quoted}

The problem with Ornn is he does too much fucking damage and his cds are too low yet they nerf the thing that nobody gives a shit about.

Except for Ornn players...

We actually enjoyed having that unstoppable on our W so we can make plays. I don't two fucks if they nerf his damage to half or fucking less, or double his mana costs, or both. But give us back the unstoppable that nobody even complained about. Fix his real issues, leave the fun.

General Esdeath 25 votes

The other big issue is that the unstoppable wasn't the issue

Drugoth10 votes

Well I mean, you can do some pretty neat things with it, like completely ignore Blitz hooks, (stand in front of your squishes and protect them AND yourself. You can also use it when Sion ults at you to ignore the knockup, this in turn gives you a chance to avoid his followup Q stun. I have also used it to great affect against Jannas and Lulus who try in vain to try and peel me off their precious ADCs...

[sg-janna] [sg-lulu]

JabaTheHat6 votes

Lol with that same logic using QSS is literally "just press QSS after you're stunned".

But if you watch average players play, you'll see how slow their QSS is, to the point that QSS rarely makes a difference for sub plat adcs that they should just buy GA instead. You're downplaying difficulty so much by putting the idea into unfair wording.

General Esdeath 34 votes

What would Scarra know? He's just some washed up hardstuck challenger player, not like our totally diamond balance team.

Milton Fletcher9 votes

most of them arent even diamond lol.

some of them are silver tank/adc/support mains.

they know lots when they cant even climb out of sivler.

edit: downvoted for being honest yikes! forgot what kind of site this is.

SithesisLord21 votes

Well, it´s not like they have playtest teams providing them with what, gigabytes of data per daily PBE patch in regards to champions, matchups, the changes made and its effects.

Sure, removing Ornn's unstoppable was unwise, but that doesn´t mean Riot's balance team doesn´t know about the game, regardless of their rank and the state of the game itself when they have tons of data to go through and analyze.

They´re also changing how the patches work. I believe odd numbered patches will be the biggest patches, with lots of changes, and even numbered patches the ones to fix, buff, nerf or otherwise iterate further changes necessary as consequence to the success and decline of champions according to the data from odd numbered patches.

Riot said they´re working on a bruiser keystone, when everyone is just shouting that they bring back Fervor when the keystone itself, as we knew it, objectively has no place in these new runes, with all the current ones having some restriction and/or condition to be applied and some giving adaptive resources.

General Esdeath 11 votes

I don't know man, most of the changes over the last 3 seasons have been quite questionable.

Fervor was a great rune because it had a clear power gap between melee and ranged champs while also giving a small yet considerable amount of AD early while giving good damage late game to deal with tanks.

SithesisLord9 votes

Fervor still wouldn´t have a place in the current system.

Even if it replaced PTA, it´d likely be a version where it has restrictions and conditions to follow. Like, after 3 AAs on enemy champion, you get X-Y (Increases per level) AD/AP (Adaptive) for Z seconds, increased by .5 seconds if the same champion is attacked.

General Esdeath 2 votes

Or we can keep it simple, as it was a perfect keystone before.

Arakadia8 votes

It had almost no interaction or counterplay for the enemy.

General Esdeath 7 votes

Neither do most of the keystones we have now except for "run away" and that's the counterplay to Fervor

Arakadia5 votes

Bad design does not justify bad design.

Besides, the vast majority of keystones have counterplay unless it's something unique like GP kleptomancy.

General Esdeath 6 votes

So then let's remove Klepto, aery, aftershock, electrocute, press the attack, lethal tempo, and grasp since the counterplay to all of them is "Don't get close to them"

Milton Fletcher26 votes

skill expression isnt even a thing anymroe top.

u either do, or u dont.

there is no inbetween.

u either get outstated and outpicked or u get camped.

u either get perma cced by maokai every fight or u wait for a gank and have a chance at killing him.

in a 1v1 he has too many gap closers slows and displacements on a short cooldown.

u simply dont have a "window" to engage.

u just go in and hope for the best since riot removed all skill from half the tank roster

Revali18 votes

honestly just give him his unstoppable back and change his w damage to current, he'll soften you up, but wont outright kill you.

BlackEyesBlue12 votes

First the displacement on Azir's E, now this...

DragonShea9 votes

When people want nerfs they want the champion to be viable not OP or destroyed.

This pretty much why people are saying that riot's balance team sucks.

Besteal3 votes

Exactly. Ornn is only called OP because his damage is high, and Cooldowns and Mana costs are low. However, at this point, even with the mentioned damage, cooldown, and Mana costs, Ornn has been completely gutted. Removing unstoppable from his w was definitely a step in the wrong direction, and I mourn the loss of it. It also doesn't solve the other problems that Ornn obviously has, namely, low cooldown low cost damage (Riven anyone?). But Riot won't fix that. Instead, they take away one of the most crucial parts of his kit, and say "Done! Great Job folks!" NO. Unstoppability is a key part of Ornn's ability to say, play against spammable cc heavy or cc reliant champs, as well as giving him support viability. But now that that's gone, his viability is way down, and he'll lose way too many more matchups; especially against champs with already low counterplay.

Wráthful8 votes

riot doesn't really care what we say we are minority of haters and flamers right? at least that's what they say. they will keep doing shady things and those fake ass showcasing videos make me laugh when they say how much they care for us.

NextSeasonBetter7 votes

RIOT RUINS EVERYTHING AND MAKES EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME INTO STUPID SHIT! THIS IS WHY THE BEST CHAMPS ARE AKALI AND TWITCH! FUCK!

DocShocker6 votes

I'll just tell it like I have told and spoken with others. Removing the unstoppable to Ornn's W does nothing about the issues many folk have with him, his damage. It takes away a form of skill expression with being able to tank hooks from the like of Nautilus or Blitz for his team, takes away tanking Zoe Sleep for an ally(assuming you apply it before the sleep proc and not on contact), and the biggest part I'd say.. Avoiding knock ups and displacements to get back in the fight faster than someone who would be. So let me just put what would be better nerfs I'd think from the time I've spent playing Ornn since his release. He quickly became one of my goto champs and my favored pick in the game, even with being relatively weak on release before the various buffs.(remember how he everyone considered him a troll pick back then?)

First off is the one addressed with this patch. His R cooldown was far too low for the power it has and honestly expected it to be nerfed sooner than this. Though now that it has, will need to see how it plays out now, but I think it should be fine.

Second, the Unstoppable aspect of W was perfectly fine. The flames are honestly fine as well, as they alone don't chunk(less someone is a potato and gets baked in the full duration). For people that say it should be current health, well, that's what it was before on his release and it did nothing unless the targets were full HP or near it.(part of the contribution to him being a troll pick on release until it changed) Low hp targets were practically safe around Ornn unless they got hit by what needs nerfs now. And that part which isn't fine and what should have been nerfed, instead of removing Unstoppable, is the Brittle auto attack. This is where a lot of Ornn's damage comes from. It's they key aspect of Ornn's kill pressure, especially post-6. If that bonus magic damage Ornn did when auto attacking a target with Brittle was nerfed, he'd be much less of a bully in lane and more in line with a CC team fighting tank as he's meant to be.

Third, and this is only if the Brittle AA's magic damage is lowered and he's still a problem, then his W should be looked at some more. Be it the base shield or HP ratio. Lower either of those or nerf the cooldown in the early ranks, but still returns to his live cooldown at rank 5 at least so he still has some pressure in late game fights.


For those that don't want to read. Give back Unstoppable for skill expression among Ornn players. His R should already be relatively in line now with its nerf, need to see how it pans out for sure though.

Lower the Brittle AA magic damage that chunks. Sometimes it does even more than the flames depending on how much an enemy sits in the flames, not to mention you can get 2 procs in quick succession when paired with R.

If the Brittle AA nerf is not enough, lower the shielding(either base or the scaling) for more risk to Ornn or make his early W cooldowns longer duration. Not both at the same time. See how one goes then hit the other accordingly if still too strong.

If, for some reason, he is still an issue even after those have been hit or tweaked. The next best thing I could suggest to go with those are to raise his mana costs on W and possibly Q as well if needed.

Moonfall Saber5 votes

For once I agree with riot on this change. Theres nothing a player can do right now to stop his advance and your slowed from his q as well. Plus Ohrn gets a shield. I mean this one ability was overloaded. Plus as a Singed player this is huge because Ohnn completely blocked the damage from fling.

Besteal4 votes

I actually made a thread about this yesterday. The ult Cooldown increase is almost negligible. You don't use it that much except in teamfights anyway, and you'll end up getting cdr so it doesn't matter as much. But Unstoppable on his w is very intrinsic on his kit. Removing him is simply gutting the champion- and removing the skill expression. You also remove his viability in the support role, which can make some people's champion pools even smaller when they get autofilled into support or want to play support.

Tykenn4 votes

I don't understand why they change things, we like about champions instead of decreasing damage. This is exactly what they did to Zoe, they kept her damage the same, but changed her Q and R interactions making her really unfun and clunky to play.

Spaxa3 votes

why is no one talking about mao though? he is just as strong as Ornn, even feels more braindead to play and no one complains

greekvandaL7 votes

{quoted}

why is no one talking about mao though? he is just as strong as Ornn, even feels more braindead to play and no one complains

Because Ornn is more popular. I personally hate Mao more cause he is a cc bot on top of high dmg. Ornn at least shoves your shit in with Dmg but only has R to properly enable his team

Lord Phazanor 6 votes

{quoted}

why is no one talking about mao though? he is just as strong as Ornn, even feels more braindead to play and no one complains

Because we grew tired of complaining :p

Kuromatsu3 votes

i havent even played Ornn yet and i can see that Riot balance team is just non existent and making things up just to get a rise out of players.

Auroramancer3 votes

I don't even care about the unstoppable feature of Ornn's W.

What I care about is the uptime of W's shield.

Whether they want to go about it by increasing the cooldown on W, or reducing the duration of the shield, I don't mind.

Unstoppable wasn't what made him stupid to play against. It was the shield uptime.

PhDs Nuts3 votes

Next change: Fiora's W no longer counters CC, but is just used as an attack speed slow.

Rindin143 votes

Is anyone else noticing that a fair number of the posts on this thread are roughly as follows:

ahem

"Ornn needed to be nerfed, his (random ability that is totally unrelated to the changes) is too strong and he totally destroyed me as (some random champion who isn't part of the discussion) when I walked into his w and wasted my cc spell. I'm so glad that they nerfed him."

(I added some punctuation and made an attempt at correct grammar, but this is Boards after all)

Nobody is making the argument that Ornn didn't need to be looked at. I personally only played him support and have no idea if he needed a nerf or not, that isn't the point.

We are simply trying to point out that removing a skill that made Ornn unique and interesting is the worst possible way to nerf him if that is what is needed.

It would be very simple to balance the champion pool if they were all carbon copies of the same base model and had no interesting abilities...but that's why I don't play CoD (unnecessary and probably unfounded jab).

Please Riot, stop taking away interesting abilities.

Chroud1 votes

I love the nerf and here is why.

-I am a fiddlesticks main and when I (Q)Fear him he shouldn't be able to hit W and get out of it as he is already feared.

BUT

If he was in W before fear I get it but not if I fear him first.

DorkunedAuras3 votes

But... He can't W if he's already feared. That's how it worked. He had to use his W before the CC hit.

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

Acting like any tank has any form of skill expression..... nice meme they just press point and click abilities for 1/2 your hp

Rindin142 votes

I mean, it seems to me that you are attempting to voice an opinion in support of the Ornn nerf.

What you are actually doing is highlighting the problem with said nerf, that there is no skill expression in the tank class.

By removing an ability that was (fairly) unique to Ornn as a form of nerf (instead of turning down some of his damage numbers or reducing his shield etc) Riot is making that problem worse.

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