Would Annie conditionally being able to lose her Stun (4th) proc butcher her being viable?

EinarUlfar·Sep 15, 2017·2 votes·399 views

Title. Just curious, since I've always heard Annie get a lot of hate in lane.

14 Comments

MLDzXnRRRSep 15, 20172 votes

She is not "viable" for many years, if viable means strong enough to see regular play in high elo and LCS

Shuyin178Sep 15, 20171 votes

Compared to other mages, Annie's spells are short ranged so her stun serves as her only deterrent against being dove. If she has to re-stack her stun then she can easily get killed.

Silly NeekoSep 15, 20171 votes

It would make them more aggressive in lane. Similar to Caitlyn and Jhin with their 6th and 4th shot. Caitlyn is a little different there due to being able to keep it indefinately..... but its almost always used pretty quick for poke unless there is a minion thats about to die. Rengar and Renekton both stick around for a while to get and keep their passive.... Mordekaiser as well.... Ryze and Leblanc both have to continue hitting to get their passive stuff off. Gnar and Vayne both do. Aatrox does.

It really wouldnt be all that different other than she would be more aggressive and doesnt start out a team fight with a 5 man giant stun area for what.... 1.5 sec? Which almost kills anyone who hasnt built magic resist and health..... Which then their team lays down CC of their own and their own damage. For example Jarven IV going in, with a Yasuo that comes in, with a Velkoz and Miss Fortune going in...... all that can delete even the tankiest of teams within 3-4 seconds if executed properly. And all Annie had to do to set it up is save her passive for an hour.

Either Tibbers summoning damage will need nerfed or the passive needs nerfed. If people want her to be able to explode people still, then they have to take a hit to the passive. A "you have this much time to use the passive" would be good.

EinarUlfarSep 16, 20171 votes

Appreciate the detailed response. Not sure why a mere question was downvoted so much..lol, but thank you for taking the time to write this. (:

Silly NeekoSep 16, 20171 votes

Not a problem. Just my thoughts on the matter lol

BubblyRainbowsSep 16, 20171 votes

If you want to see how necessary Annie's stun is to her kit, try this challenge: I did it, and she is absolute trash without that stun. Here's what to do.

Join a bot game (or make a custom game with You + 4 bots vs. 5 bots). During the game, you are not allowed to stun anyone. Ever. If your stun comes up, you have to either stun a nearby minion or fire your W in a direction that won't hit anyone. Without the stun, Annie is an extremely immobile, short-range caster who gets facerolled by literally everyone. The stun is the only thing that even makes her playable, much less viable.

I originally did this test in response to friends who said her stun duration should be cut in half because she was "broken". Your solution isn't quite as drastic, but it still would make her a trash champion, which is bad because she's supposed to be the beginners' window to burst mages. If she has to constantly be reproccing her stun, it means most of her spells will be on cooldown at the start of any fight because she was building up the stun, or she will not have a stun available and will be focused and killed before she can get a stun up.

Seriously, try the no-stun challenge in a bot game. Annie is completely unusable without that stun.

Silly NeekoSep 16, 20171 votes

But their suggestion would not take away her stun. Also, if this was implimented.... she would likely only have to use 3 spells to get the stun then. That way she can Q, W, E, R and be fine if she wanted. That way it isnt spamable every rotation of her kit.... but it can still initiate team fights.

Likely it would have a window similar to Rengar's as well. I mean it would only make sense.... and you would still be able to burst people. It just isnt a "oh yup. I didnt flash in the half second window i have of annie pressing down her R button so now im melted into butter in the stun time."

BubblyRainbowsSep 16, 20171 votes

Right, I get that. But what I'm saying is, you really need to play an Annie game without using her stun at all to understand how essential it is for her kit. People who get melted by Annie and call for her stun to be nerfed or say that she's OP generally don't play Annie and so they don't know how to play around her. But all you need is one game in which you purposely never use her stun to understand that nerfing it in any way would make her utterly unplayable. She is already VERY difficult to play against a good player. Her ranges are way too low, her mobility is non-existent, and she is generally too squishy for that stun not to be available with convenience. Plus, putting her stun on a timer takes away one of her best strengths, which is her ability to ambush. Sitting in a bush, if you have to cast three spells to bring up her stun, you literally CAN'T do it. You'd have to shield, use a W that tells the enemy right where you are, HIT them with a Q (since it's point-and-click and not a skill shot, so you can't use it without a target), and hope they haven't run or flashed away from the Tibbers stun you finally have ready.

And honestly, she is not that hard to play against. When her stun is up, there is a very obvious swirl around her. When it's there, you just keep a healthy distance from her and don't bunch up in a group. That's all there is to it. Plus, an item like Banshee's Veil is a serious hindrance to her. Immunity to a Tibbers stun means you will almost definitely survive her full rotation. Her limitations are why you'll never see her in pro play. Good players generally don't have a problem playing against her.

I play her. Not constantly, but regularly enough. If I'm against someone who is obviously not very experienced, I get fed hard. They don't respect her burst and play too aggressively, and then they get a Tibbers dropped on their head and they are done. If I am against a player that knows what they're doing, more often than not I have a MUCH harder laning phase (often a losing laning phase) in which I get few or no kills. Most or all of my kills in games against a competent mid-laner come from ambushes in the jungle or roams to other lanes.

Silly NeekoSep 16, 20171 votes

I have played as well, I am not that great with her, but i have played her as well. The problem is that if an annie can actually last hit with autos.... keeping her passive up for 10 minutes forcing the enemy laner to... as you put it.... keep a healthy distance..... is like saying teemo is not that bad when you are playing a champion like Tryndamere or Garen or something.

All you have to do is keep your distance right?

You have to keep your distance or you will be chunked down and cant do anything about it.

Yes, Garen can build Magic Resist. Yes, Tryndamere MABYE can outplay the teemo depending on skill match ups etc.

You can beat a Teemo with them, but it is very annoying and you will likely lose out on more farm.

Same with Annie. She can completely zone off a champion like Zed or even Yasuo if they are played well enough.

Annie can still pull off her entire rotation in about 1 sec depending on how close her opponent was for the Q.

Yes, their jungler can come.... but if there is wards, she does not have to go all that far away from the middle of the lane to zone off an enemy.

Annie has a point and click Q that still does quite a bit of damage, and that has a very short cooldown. She has damage reduction on her E that also damages enemies who hit it. She has a AOE cone which, yes, is shorter ranged. Then there is Tibbers. Massive AOE damage.

She will lose her Zoning and yes, some of her Ambush powers..... but her playing will not change too much except you will be more aggressive.

Yes, banshees will help a lot with the instant burst at this point in time. It will not effect it as much if this change was implimented, due to not being forced to choose between wasting your stun on a banshees with your Q to burst them.... or just backing off. It gives her an opportunity to get rid of the biggest weakness which is having the stun easily blocked by banshees as you pointed out. There is no waiting for someone else to do it.

BubblyRainbowsSep 17, 20171 votes

You're missing the point. ANY nerf to Annie's stun means she will never see play. Ever. Because she will be unusable. Especially for the new players she's aimed at. Yes, she can zone off Yasuo. But if you're picking Yasuo into Annie, quite honestly you deserve to be shut down in lane. Any midlane mage (and I do mean ANY mage, not assassin/diver) outranges Annie. Many of them outrange her by a ton. They can hang back and chunk her out little by little all day. Zed included. His W and Q can easily whittle her away until he can all-in, all while staying out of her range. And no Annie is going to hold her stun all day long just to zone out an enemy. Her Q is a very efficient way to farm. When my stun is up, I typically try to move up to back off the opponent, and if they wisely move away, I burn the stun on a Q to kill a minion.

But like I said, anyone who knows what they are doing at mid can easily deal with her in lane. There is no reason to nerf her stun other than to make sure she never sees play again. Nerfing Annie's stun would be a bit like removing ALL of Zed's shadow mechanics. It guts the only thing that makes the champ usable. The only people for whom she is a problem are newer players (who ideally would be matched against also-new Annie players who are less likely to be able to abuse them) and people who end up stuck with a melee champ like Yasuo against her (and even they can outplay her if they're careful and good).

Silly NeekoSep 17, 20171 votes

You are going to complete extreme. Without even trying to consider what commentary has been made. You instantly are just saying "nope, wont work".

Yes, her Q is good to farm with. That said, blowing it on a minion if you can just auto it is silly.

For 1 it pushes the lane harder because the minions can shoot other minions faster. Meaning it is harder for your jungler to gank in the long run, and will result in easier ganks on you.

For 2, blowing the Q on a minion easily gives the enemy sight of "yup, i can go in, her stun is down and she cant stun for a full rotation" which puts YOU on the rough side for atleast 10 seconds.

Yes, she can get out ranged....... Zed can technically out range with his W Q combo if you cant side step it well enough. Xerath out ranges EVERYONE mid except for Ezreal..... which even then is debateable. The list can go on there.... but you are forgetting she is not just played as mid.

She is also played as support. This is where you can easily see how the being able to hold the stun for eternity could be problematic..... seeing as she does not have to farm, she just has to sit back and wait for even a toe to be stepped out of line.

Her mid laning will not be changed hardly at all then for you by the way.... seeing as you literally just said that you will hold it for just until the enemy backs off, and then you use it on a minion. That is exactly what she would be doing in lane anyways.

However, if she had to only cast 3 spells instead of 4 with the change.... then she can still keep that stun a surprise, and if they go in on you, then you would just have to do a rotation of your abilities and boom. Same as usual.

Now keep in mind, i am not saying they SHOULD rework Annie. I am simply saying that if she does get a slight rework like this..... this would be MUCH better than just nerfing the stun time like quite a few have said... and has been implimented as well if i remember right.

It would make her a bit more game friendly..... reducing the effectiveness of Banshees against her, and would give her enemies a bit more time than thinking of saying "oh ****" before they die due to stun.

As mentioned in my first comment on here, if she gets reworked a bit she will either take a hit on her damage..... or she will take a hit on her passive. This change to the Passive would be a nerf in some areas, and a buff in others.

Also, the stun wouldnt disappear right away. It would likely have a decent timer similar to Rengar or Renekton. Leaving her perfectly able to do whatever she feels like doing still.

Somebody Love MeSep 16, 20171 votes

Seeing as it would work the same way as Jhin's 4th shot, I think it would be fine. She would be more aggressive, but yeah I think it would be a healthy change. Some other changes would have to be made to compensate though.

themachampSep 17, 20171 votes

they want to keep her as the "starter mid lane mage" so she will never lose the stun or simplicity of her kit. If she ever is strong at high elo or in the lcs then that means the game is in a state of in-balance or she is over tuned af.