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I'm ok with nerfing MF, but are we sure we want to take away an expression of skill?

Photos of Ghosts·2/23/2017, 1:57:06 PM·112 votes·4,118 views

PBE trimmed away the 50% damage increase on the second target of double-up if the first dies.

Mind you, I'm ok with MF getting much weaker than she is and I know that this thing was added relatively recently, many MF players can do without it. However, it also means you don't have to prepare the minion as much anymore, it's much easier to get the best possible result. Couldn't we just nerf the increase from 50% to 25%, and then nerf the base damage of the second shot? This way, you still have to work to get the optimal damage output.

96 Comments

Rewt2/23/2017, 6:43:20 PM16 votes

The big problem is when an MF kills a minion and hits you with double up and you lose 3/4 of your hp and you are left going http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/018/489/nick-young-confused-face-300x256_nqlyaa.jpg

50000000000000002/23/2017, 6:12:34 PM15 votes

What if the bounce shot damage scaled 10%~50% based on the ranks of Q? Her laning would be weakened (which seems to be the intention), but later on, not so much. Although I don't really think MFs usually use empowered Q outside of lane...

Hexs Fortune2/23/2017, 2:08:35 PM14 votes

There is something to be said about how one dimensional she is right now. Changes like this make her feel even more mage like

Maddéy2/23/2017, 6:48:47 PM9 votes

This change is incredibly stupid, and makes me think that team that thinks this is where MF's problem lies right now has no clue about the game, or the champion they want to change. Majority of MF's power is built into her ultimate, I'd say its around 70%. That makes her pretty one dimensional and telegraphable, and removing a part of her kit where she actually has something more to stand up for her name is just plain dumb. Here's my take on the changes:

  1. MF shouldnt have an access to an item, that gives her both armorpen and a spellshield she can apply to herself right before she casts her ultimate. Given how strong it is, it should have a relatively easy counterplay - being interrupting it when you are given a chance - you are not if she has a shield. Well, item is here, removing it because of one champion is not an option, regardless though it shouldn't have happened.

  2. Of all the lethality adcs MF is the weakest one, and yet she is hit the most. Of course, you can argue with that, but it's reflected by both soloq and competitive.

  3. Change of this caliber is completely unjustified in my opinion, given that Black Cleaver changes made it live. She is one of the strongest users of it in the game, considering how fast she reaches its max stacks and to how many people at the same time she applies it. BC is not really an option for her anymore right?

  4. Now, I do agree too that she is too strong. And if you ask me where the changes should have been applied to, I'd say it should be ultimate. She already overkills people with it if she is ahead, and it happens when she is even with the enemy too. http://plays.tv/video/589e074ac7f58a2c9b/haul-togheter?from=user

Acheron162/24/2017, 1:15:07 AM6 votes

Literally of all the nerfs they could do to her they pick the one that has the least impact in the meta (she presses Q normally and kills people or presses R to melt anything) but requires the most skill of her kit.

Riot has ZERO idea of how to balance

agbudar2/24/2017, 11:27:59 AM3 votes

the bonus should be 20% and instead they should look and trim her ult a bit.

thats honestly the part that is completely busted with a lethality build (and still will be with the changes)

MooooooooreDakka2/24/2017, 1:55:30 AM3 votes

Agreed, they probably should have nerfed the skill as a whole, not just the part that takes the most setup/allows the most counterplay. That and nerf the ult because at the moment it takes up a lot of her power budget while also doing stupid amounts of damage which can be hard to play around because of edge of night and the potential of someone else ccing you.

Irelia Bot2/24/2017, 11:11:00 AM3 votes

900/1050/1200% total AD in 3 seconds for an AoE ult...

But lets take away this part of her Q

Nanas2/24/2017, 4:14:33 PM2 votes

As a Miss Fortune main I think this is a bad way to nerf her. Completely removing the 50% bonus damage q crit is the wrong way to do it. I agree about decreasing it to 25% , I'm okay with even 15%. Her Q is the only ability that takes skill. This is how you can see who is skilled mf and who is not. Plus lethality is the thing that makes her so strong. When lethality was nerfed, she wasn't in a good spot too. So a nerf to lethality is an indirect nerf to mf. I think there are many better ways to nerf her. Removing her q crit bonus will make her boring and dull. It will remove her pressure in lane. Her autos are very weak, so q is her only lane harras. And it's not hard to learn to play against it. Sorry for my bad english, I hope everyone can understand what I'm trying to say.

Linna Excel2/24/2017, 1:50:04 AM2 votes

I can't help but think that the MF Q nerfs are to keep her from being an anti-zyra support again.

Also, it's happening just before the new Zyra skin is coming out.

SweedishGunner2/23/2017, 9:57:40 PM2 votes

I think they should trim some more utility off her.

Envoy of Melody2/24/2017, 12:18:12 PM2 votes

Or, you know, don't nerf Miss Fortune and see how it works out once Lethality is nerfed.

Or even better: Return her ultimate into her original state, a MAGIC damage ultimate. It's outrageous to think that Riot approves a character that fires a large DoT cone into a direction that reduces armor with every dot thanks to Black Cleaver being her standard build. Her problem isn't her Q. If you think a skill that can deal big damage from distance is an issue, then please address Varus, Jhin, Ezreal, Ashe and Sivir, too. It's not her Q, it's her ultimate that breaks her gameplay entirely thanks to Black Cleaver and lethality turning her into a support burst ADC. The same goes for Lucian. Black Cleaver is simply not a in a healthy state right now and offers many physical dot attacks an outrageous and unstoppable debuff that can cost you the whole game in a teamfight.

Elikain2/24/2017, 3:00:39 PM2 votes

I'm ok with nerfing MF, but are we sure we want to take away an expression of skill?

##No, removing MF's double up bonus damage is not removing her expression of mastery. All Riot did was remove the reward for hitting that double up after executing the first target, considering that Lethality already functions like an anti-squishy stat. MF no longer needs that bonus damage to make it "worth". Double up still functions the same way but it no longer has the extra damage to obliterate a squishy after they get hit by just one Q.

Just remember that this is a PBE change. This may be an extreme case where Riot is looking for the breakpoint for this Q nerf. It isn't sure that it's going to ship with the bonus damage completely removed.

Case in point:

http://imgur.com/22ytw3O.png[img]

On an enemy dummy (100 AR, MR - 50% damage resistance), MF's (lvl 11) lvl 5 double up Q that kills the target and procs the passive on the second target, deals around 415-420 damage. That's with no runes, masteries and just two Lethality items.

Now try that with lvl 11 Caitlyn that has armor seals that equal to 62.6 armor. Her HP pool is 1226. Proccing MF's Q bonus damage and applying her passive equals to (from the screenshot stats) 240 + (180 x 1.5) + (180 x 0.9) = 672 raw damage.

Now we account for her armor and Lethality reduction (62.6 - 18.76 arp) = 44 armor. Damage formula is as follows (100 / 100 + [armor]) = 672 x 0.69 = 467 + 49 =** 516 damage.** That's 42% of Cait's HP in one skill, just shy over 1.5x more damage than her AA + passive.

Keep in mind that Practice Mode has some issues with inaccurate damage numbers. The actual damage (from lolwiki and math) on the dummy should be - 49 damage. So i simply added this number to the MF's double up Q to get to 516 damage.

IllegalBagel2/24/2017, 4:08:50 AM1 votes

where is this Nerf can someone give me the link?

ModAcademy Kayn2/23/2017, 10:25:41 PM1 votes

"I can last hit a minion with a point and click. Muh skillz"

xBushx2/23/2017, 6:45:28 PM1 votes

Make it rain should NOT proc T lords by itself. balanced. Also do NOT make it so it tries to find an enemy champ for the bounce. Make it closest like Ez E. So it cant be reliably hit.

Bouncemaster Zac2/23/2017, 8:01:46 PM1 votes

The bounce bonus is in no way an expression of skill and has been a major issue since the marksman update. It needs to go. Never should've been added to begin with.