Why is the guy who manages to be decent and consistently picked in adverse meta getting buffed? There are so many underwhelming champions that haven't seen daylight in years, he's just been just a bit above average for 3 months and he needs buffs?
RiotMeddler68 votesThese are buffs intended to give power particularly to players who aren't amazing at Lee Sin. We like that Lee Sin's got a pretty steep mastery curve that really rewards practice, but it's a bit too extreme, making it really hard to put him in a good spot balance wise (if he's balanced in top tier play he's very weak for the average player, if he's at least tolerable for the average player he's probably too dominant in top tier play). They will add a bit of power to competitive Lee Sin play too, we're looking to avoid too much of a buff there though.
As far as the specific changes go:
Ult now deals damage to people hit by the champion knocked back based off the bonus HP of the champ kicked. If you can Insec well, this isn't going to be a very appealing play generally. If you can't however, and are regularly using the ult just to get enemy divers out of the fight for your team this will offer a bit of extra power to try and optimize. Will be some niche cases where it helps out in high level play as well, we expect those situations to be pretty niche though.
Energy restore from passive now frontloaded onto the first auto attack (20 first auto then 10 second auto, instead of 15/15). This buff will help out both new and experienced Lee Sin players, expectation is it'll be significantly more useful to newer players though as they learn energy management and when to weave auto attacks in between spell casts. A frequent source of failure we see from new players is constantly trying to weave in 2 autos per cast, even when that's a really poor idea or, at the other extreme, running out of energy frequently. Giving people room to learn and grow's great of course, we'd like to get some signalling in there to encourage people to consider 1 auto per cast more often when they're first learning though.
LankPants118 votesThese are buffs intended to give power particularly to players who aren't amazing at Lee Sin.
"We want to reward Lee even when he fucks up"
Vistha Kai27 votes"Instead of actually balancing him."
LankPants10 votesLee's already relatively balanced, bordering on being too strong though, not too weak.
He's already a very viable jungler who see's fair amounts of competitive play and he's the most popular jungler in terms of solo que.
Buffing him in a patch that already greatly favours him is a terrible idea.
Vistha Kai2 votesThe only thing that you can call "balance" about Lee Sin is the fact he becomes a nigh non-factor past 20-25th minute of the game if you can't do the inSec.
But before that he's like Shaco, who can decide the game in 10 minutes to the point basically playing 4v5 isn't an issue.
LankPants4 votesI'm inclined to more or less agree with this TBH.
I feel he's more or less balanced by how hard he falls off, but that doesn't make him well designed. I feel Lee's design is amongst the worst of any champ in the game's.
RiotMeddler67 votes'Balanced for who?' is one of the questions behind this work. We choose to balance for high level play, with some reigning in of massive outliers at lower skill levels. If the difference in performance between experienced and inexperienced player gets too far out of line however that means we're forced to make a champion really hard to succeed with and unsatisfying for the average player if they're to be balanced at high level play. Making a champions skill floor a bit more accessible, without lowering their skill ceiling, is an approach we feel's valuable as a result, and this work is, in part, an example of that.
SquishyArchon10 votes'Balanced for who?' is one of the questions behind this work. We choose to balance for high level play, with some reigning in of massive outliers at lower skill levels. If the difference in performance between experienced and inexperienced player gets too far out of line however that means we're forced to make a champion really hard to succeed with and unsatisfying for the average player if they're to be balanced at high level play. Making a champions skill floor a bit more accessible, without lowering their skill ceiling, is an approach we feel's valuable as a result, and this work is, in part, an example of that.
Please quit your job now.
RiotMeddler151 votesThank you for the career advice.
Decrit18 votesMeddler Meddler, people' s got still fish bones in their throath about lee. Just be sure that, with these changes, he does not become the dude that works sorta everywhere and works also if he screws too much up.
Knalxz18 votesNot a rage comment but what about the OP's second part of this thread that talks about him being prioritized over other champions in a bad spot.
I.E. Yorick
RiotMeddler43 votes5.16's also got changes to a number of other champs we believe also need some help. Currently in testing stuff includes:
Kassadin (ult AP ratio) Le Blanc (partial reversion of the W speed reduction) Lissandra (self cast ult heals Lissandra) Lucian (W MS bonus can now be triggered by allies) Nami (buffed passive, ult applies double strength passive) Twitch (lower Q mana cost and very slight ult damage increase late game) Vel'koz (secondary missiles on Q have more range) Zed (shorter delay until ult can be reactivated)
That's all potential stuff in testing, so not guaranteed to go live of course, but Lee's definitely not the only champ we're looking at in that regard.
Yorick's a champ we believe needs a full kit overhaul, in the same way old Sion did/Poppy does. He's not in a terrible spot power wise so, given we don't believe he's good for the game, we don't want to add any power to him at this point.
Kingsgrave3 votes5.16's also got changes to a number of other champs we believe also need some help. Currently in testing stuff includes:
Kassadin (ult AP ratio) Le Blanc (partial reversion of the W speed reduction) Lissandra (self cast ult heals Lissandra) Lucian (W MS bonus can now be triggered by allies) Nami (buffed passive, ult applies double strength passive) Twitch (lower Q mana cost and very slight ult damage increase late game) Vel'koz (secondary missiles on Q have more range) Zed (shorter delay until ult can be reactivated)
That's all potential stuff in testing, so not guaranteed to go live of course, but Lee's definitely not the only champ we're looking at in that regard.
Yorick's a champ we believe needs a full kit overhaul, in the same way old Sion did/Poppy does. He's not in a terrible spot power wise so, given we don't believe he's good for the game, we don't want to add any power to him at this point.
The only thing I've wondered about Yorick is why does his E deal Magic instead of Physical?
2 things you could change about him that would help but wouldn't make him toxic again would be:
W and E become Physical instead of Magic. Slight early game nerf but helps with Cleaver. Makes it easier to deal with him.
E heal upon dealing damage removed but E heal per ghoul auto is increased to be roughly the same as the total heal from E after like 2-4 ghoul hits. This forces E ghoul to have to attack the enemy instead of Yorick being able to just fire and forget.
gaby1best5 votesHis whole kit is getting changed, so most abilities will not remain the same as they are today.
Kingsgrave7 votesHis whole kit is getting changed, so most abilities will not remain the same as they are today.
Yes but that'll be like 1-2 years from now.
Calibretto93 votes5.16's also got changes to a number of other champs we believe also need some help. Currently in testing stuff includes:
Kassadin (ult AP ratio) Le Blanc (partial reversion of the W speed reduction) Lissandra (self cast ult heals Lissandra) Lucian (W MS bonus can now be triggered by allies) Nami (buffed passive, ult applies double strength passive) Twitch (lower Q mana cost and very slight ult damage increase late game) Vel'koz (secondary missiles on Q have more range) Zed (shorter delay until ult can be reactivated)
That's all potential stuff in testing, so not guaranteed to go live of course, but Lee's definitely not the only champ we're looking at in that regard.
Yorick's a champ we believe needs a full kit overhaul, in the same way old Sion did/Poppy does. He's not in a terrible spot power wise so, given we don't believe he's good for the game, we don't want to add any power to him at this point.
Meddler, I think you and your team are killing it (in a good way!). Not even a Lee Sin player, but love the driving force behind the change. 99.9% of the players will never experience facing an Insec level player so for almost all of us this will be a great change.
Blue Moon Wolf16 votesZed (shorter delay until ult can be reactivated)
I think everyone who hates zed just felt a disturbance in the force :p
AutoreactiveCD45 votesSo that's what that was. I thought it was just me getting older and more broken by life.
Dantilq13 votesOkay must be the best response to a shitty rage comment xD I love you a bit more now Meddler.
HadesBlades11 votesNo Meddler honestly you may not read this, but thank you for caring about the community and actually relating and tolerating how the community responds. You are honestly one of if not best rioter to read on the boards, your respect for us and your how you respond is amazing. Thank you for being awesome :D. And thanks for making transparency a strong point in Riots philosophy base!
TotalJerk6 votesPlus compared to other Rioter's he's less inclined to put his foot in his mouth.
LankPants7 votesMaking a champions skill floor a bit more accessible, without lowering their skill ceiling, is an approach we feel's valuable as a result, and this work is, in part, an example of that.
So you're going to balance him at low levels and break him in higher level play? This seems like a very poor solution to me.
You'd better be planning to nerf what makes him so powerful in high level play at the same time because otherwise you're going to have an incredibly broken champion on your hands
Chicken4dinner3 votesSo you're going to balance him at low levels and break him in higher level play? This seems like a very poor solution to me.
He just said he wasn't going to do that (facepalm)
LankPants10 votesThat's what this change will do though, you're a fool if you think this doesn't help Lee out at high levels of play too.
Vistha Kai5 votesYou forgot about the part in which he gets multiple indirect buffs due to armor nerfs.
The only real skill involved in playing Lee ends up not being useless past the 20 minute mark. Overtuning his damage - especially because the unfavorable for him meta shifts - isn't the answer to that.
haywire android15 votesAs this is a straight up buff (and not a shifting of power in the abilities) it really isn't a balance made for high level of play. It's a buff on all levels of play.
unsatisfying for the average player
This clearly isn't the case with Lee Sin as he already has a massive popularity, so if this is so important why choose Lee Sin as the subject of this buff?
Earlier arguments (from non game designers though, such as Phreak, but still Riot answers) regarding why Lee Sin is allowed so much special attention has been that that Lee Sin is a great design because he is so fun to play and that his popularity has nothing to do with his power level.
Silents4296 votes"We want to reward Lee even when he fucks up"
That isn't even close to what he was talking about.
Right now Lee Sin has a high skill floor, and for players still getting the hang of them it's easy to be and feel utterly useless, as a new Lee Sin player isn't going to be able to ward hop as quickly, jump in or out, or get to the back line etc, a lot of ults by him from an average player are just Lee Sins kicking the champion who dives their team, reducing his effectiveness further.
All these buffs serve to do is lower his skill floor a bit, he isn't being rewarded when he fucks up, I don't even get how you came up with that, if he is fucking anything up he isn't hitting his ult in the firstplace.
I get people hate Lee Sin on these forums, but he isn't perfect and has plenty of problems that can be fixed, it's isn't a coincidence the entire season 5 had no one complaining on the forums about him, he is fine.
LankPants4 votesIt does help out Lee in scenarios where he misplays, most notably where his team gets engaged on.
The buffs create a scenario where Lee can counter engage far too well, as he can kick the enemy tank back into their own team, nuking everyone who they hit and applying a knock-up to them.
Personally I'd argue that being in a position where the enemy team can engage on you is in and of itself a fuck up, and Lee is clearly being rewarded for that fuck up with these buffs.
Samflash35 votesBeen playing Lee Sin recently even before the buffs came out. Thanks, Riot.
Actually, I'm not joking. Lee is one of those champs that seem to be really awesome but if I can't pull an Insec, I felt useless.
I only had this question though. Why not make Lee a Flurry Focused fighter instead of a Q R Q machine? Current Lee (at least for me) is all about either making the Insec play, or building so much AD that he can burst down his enemy. Or building tanky so he can soak hits.
Like I sorta felt there was a reason for micromanaging his passive probably for more damage but a tradeoff would be his high base damage on his Q and R so he isn't so full AD reliant.
I mean he's got an interesting kit with a variety of uses. But I feel he should need to stick in battle to pummel a lot of damage.
Scrubflash3 Out!
Baron of Bread3 votesThey tried a rework to make him more reliant on his passive to output damage (and output more damage than previously) but the backlash from the community was strong enough that they didn't go through with it.
kJs44 votesIt's for the coming World's Championships, hopefully he gets nerfed after it.
Photos of Ghosts21 votesI am aware of that, but WHY LEE and why by unincentivising insecs if that's the shitty plays they want to see? Why do they want to keep the symbol of arrogant and flaming metasheep strong? Why can't he have a two-year-long "down" phase like Urgot had?
kJs24 votesBecause for the exact same reasons you pointed out. Metasheep. Insec plays.
It's popular and everyone wants to see flashy Lee Sin plays.
They could have buffed way worse champions like Zed, Yasuo, Azir, etc. Lee Sin is the flashiest of them all though.
TurquoiseYoshi5 votesExcept Zed does have a buff. Just a lesser buff that Lee.
Rozzeta18 votesBecomes a bigger buff if you take into account the armor nerf.
PiVoRx5 votesI would rather see Udyr, Shaco or Yi for once than Lee for the 10000th time.
Photos of Ghosts14 votesPlease everyone upvote, I need a red post on this. Please.
Ironclad Dragon14 votesThey won't answer you, bro.
LilxPaprika5 votes[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=62PoBOA3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-08-06T14:13:44.510+0000)
Please everyone upvote, I need a red post on this. Please.
lol ... red post... check out all the hot threads in gameplay balance. not one of them has a riot post in them.
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance?sort_type=hot
ElJanitorFrank5 votesDoes anybody ever use the red tracker? There have been 6 Riot posts in the past hour,
There have been 55 (not including announcements) in the past 24 hours.
Most of the time Riot employees don't browse the 'hot' lists, they stick do boards they would be better equipped to answer (and are usually more interested in them).
Dextix LT3 votesAnd most of those posts arwe from completely different departments about completely different issues.
The Vilemaw Icon7 votesMost of the time like 90% of red posts are just Riot KateyKhaos answering stupid questions about skins and saying "Thanks for your feedback!"
I wouldn't tout that number as indicative of Riot actively engaging the community with regard to balance issues.
Stackless Python7 votesMost of the time like 90% of red posts are just Riot KateyKhaos answering stupid questions about skins and saying "Thanks for your feedback!"
I wouldn't tout that number as indicative of Riot actively engaging the community with regard to balance issues.
That's because they aren't part of the balance team at Riot, and I don't blame the art team for not responding to balance questions. The fucking balance team on the other hand, yea, they don't read the forums and/or ever reply.
LankPants12 votesWhy is the guy who manages to be decent and consistently picked in adverse meta getting buffed? There are so many underwhelming champions that haven't seen daylight in years, he's just been just a bit above average for 3 months and he needs buffs?
Just to add to this Riot's also nerfing the hell out of armour in the same patch, which is greatly in Lee's favour and gutting Cinderhulk just to make sure his competition isn't as strong.
SH Azykan6 votesand nidalee nerfs, so you know the top junglers are all taken care of
Silents4292 votesThey are also buffing the armor gained per level for all the tanks.
The armor nerfs themselves are minor. As well as a lot of costs for some of the items being reduced.
Cinderhulk changes make it a buff early/mid while being hardly different late game.
LankPants4 votesThey're only buffing some tanks though, where does this leave Sejuani for example? She's a tank who's already suffering after an incredibly overkill set of nerfs and she's not getting any armour buffs.
Cinderhulk changes make it a buff early/mid while being hardly different late game.
In practice it works the opposite way for most tanks. Your mid game's so weak that you don't really care about the small increase (It caps at +90 HP if you're not running any other HP at all) and you just end up losing out on HP late game.
Personally when I play a tank I'd much prefer 50 extra HP at lv 16 to 100 at lv 6. You need as much late game power as you can get on tanks.
Silents4292 votesThey are upping the base HP by 100, this is a massive buff for it, by late game you get less then 100HP shaved off your 3500 total, you won't even notice the difference.
And 
isn't suffering she got knocked down a peg and is still seeing high play, and high ban rates.
LankPants1 votesThey're upping the base HP by 100, but Cinder multiplies it's own HP, 25% of 300 is 75 meaning ATM Cinder gives 375 HP, on the PBE it gives 460, which is a 85 HP difference, assuming 0 HP from runes and masteries.
With 2k bonus HP there's a 100 HP difference, old Cinder being better, but some tanks (like Sej) stack more than 2k bonus HP quite often.
And Sej is suffering, she's not even a competitive pick any more.
Ultra da boy11 votesIn my over 3 1/2 years of playing this game, there has never been a time where Lee Sin wasn't at least acceptable in the meta if you were talented with him. He does NOT needs buffs, lol